Episode 9: Travel and Autism — Exploring the World with Heightened Senses

Show Notes

Travel and the act of experiencing people and places is something that is generally talked about with excitement, but for Autistic people, it can be a much more complex experience.

Patrick, who hosts entrepreneurial retreats for therapists all over the world and travels often for extended periods of time, shared that despite loving to travel, the experience of hosting retreats and being away from home could also feel torturous at times, like having exposed nerves that were shocked by all things sensory.

When talking about travel and social interactions, Dr. Neff expressed that it "feels like the decision is to have a really small life or to lean into experiences, but to be constantly confronted with the too-muchness of the world."

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, both AuDHD mental health professionals, share their diverse experiences and feelings about travel, social interactions, and sensory overload.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand the challenges and experiences of neurodivergent individuals while traveling and in stimulating social spaces.
2. Identify ways that travel can provide positive stimulation for Autistic individuals through new experiences.
3. Learn ways to manage and do self-care and self-advocacy when feeling sensory overload during travel.

Travel and social situations can be challenging for neurodivergent individuals, but through vulnerability and a commitment to self-care, it is possible to find strength and joy in the pursuit of exploring new places and experiences.

🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube

Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you're listening to another episode of Divergent Conversations. I'm your cohost, Patrick Casale.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And today we are going to talk about traveling and our neurodiverse experiences while traveling. I just got back from 30 days in Europe and work retreat mode. And I know you and I were talking on Instagram a lot about what the experience was like, and how I was showing up, and impacted. And it was a lot.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, you know, from the Instagram messaging we were doing, I could tell, like, the drain that you were experiencing over there, and I'd love to hear more, like, in person, well, in Zoom person, what your experience was of traveling. I know you love traveling, and we've talked about that before, but I also got the sense that this trip… I don't know, was this trip different for you?

PATRICK CASALE: It was really testing for a lot of reasons, you know? Like, 30 days abroad, away from home, away from my partner, and my dogs, and my bed. Like, those things, I think, would be challenging for anybody in a lot of ways. I think the things that were like, really evident for me and really challenging for me was, one, I traveling with a friend and business partner. So, like, I did feel-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, the whole time? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, the whole 30 days. So, I felt like a lot-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: My daughter and I were just talking about this, about how, like, being alone versus being with someone else you're tracking makes a world of difference. I thought you were alone. I didn't realize you were with someone.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, tell me a little bit about what came up when you and your daughter were talking about this? Because I'm sure it's very relatable and similar to what I was experiencing.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. My husband had taken them to Olive Garden, which is their, like, favorite restaurant. And I, typically, don't go. And it's kind of a sweet moment, my daughter had just had a meltdown, and was having a lot of kind of shame around that. And I was, like, reminding her, like, you know, this is your body having a response, this is outside of your control. 

And she was asking me about, like, meltdowns. I was like, "I have more shutdowns." And I was like, "You know, that's, like, why I didn't go to the restaurant with you all because I know, like, I wouldn't be there." And so, we were talking about shutdowns, and then we were talking about how… she's like, "Yeah, you know, I noticed it's easier for me to be in public or to be like…" She's like, "That's what I liked when I wasn't in person schools, is I only had to track myself. I wasn't tracking, like, what my brother was doing, or you, or dad."

And I was just relating to that. Like, yeah, like, it's so much easier for me to travel alone, to go to a coffee shop alone, just to be in the world alone. When I'm tracking my children, when I'm tracking my dog, when I'm tracking my spouse, it's too much.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and it's multi-faceted, right? Like, that's very layered. Like, there's a tracking, I imagine as a parent, where it's like, this is kind of my responsibility to track, and then, like, the tracking that goes on when we're constantly tracking body language, and absorbing energy, and just responding to, and kind of almost like anticipating, and trying to attune, and trying to be connected, and trying to respond appropriately, and all the things that go into relational dynamics. 

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it was so hard in so many ways. But I think I anticipated that. Like I knew going in like, this is not going to be an easy 30 days. Like, for most people on the outside looking in, if you're saying like, "Oh, I'm traveling from Greece to Italy, to Spain, to Portugal." People are like, "That's fucking amazing."

And I don't want to discount that either because there were amazing moments. But man, it was just constant tracking, and energy absorption, and overwhelm. And you're talking like planes, trains, automobiles situation where you're living out of a suitcase, you can't get settled.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's a ton of transitions you did in 30 days. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we stayed in 10 different rentals in that 30-day [CROSSTALK 00:04:24], in four different countries. So-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Is that how you typically travel? 

PATRICK CASALE: No, this was very specific because we were there to host a retreat in Spain at the end of April, but we were also there to find venues for 2024, retreat destinations, and confirmations. So, we were meeting with, like, hotel managers, and venue hosts, and [CROSSTALK 00:04:52]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And see your people then as well.

PATRICK CASALE: …and peopling all the time. So, it was like going on tours to not only, like, highlight this is what we're going to do when all of you come here next year, but also, to meet people, and build connections. And so, it was constant. 

And I found myself significantly more quiet than I usually am. And I'm usually quiet in general, and then, feeling really disconnected, and also just like, really having to be very intentional about energy. So, there were days where I was like, I'm not peopling today and I would tell my friend, "I can't commit to what we're going to do tomorrow, I'm just going to stay in the Airbnb." 

There was a night at the retreat in Spain where I was just over it. Like, we had gone to Barcelona. There was a group of 32 of us and I was very often, like, the one who was like tracking, but also for safety purposes, like, making sure we have our group, making sure everyone's together, like all the things in a very, very crowded, overstimulating city in Barcelona, with people everywhere. 

And, you know, I just was like, I got back to the venue that night, and they were getting ready for dinner. And I was like, "I'm going back to our Airbnb. Like, I'm just going to walk down the hill, go into my room, watch Netflix, like, not do this thing." And thankfully, having the ability to do that was an option, but holy shit, a lot.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that, like, I feel kind of overwhelmed just hearing about all your… Like, I knew you were looking at retreat sites, but I guess I didn't think through kind of the logistics of how much transitions, and peopling, and yeah, that wasn't really a vacation, huh?

PATRICK CASALE: No, not at all. I don't think we had many restorative, like, relaxing days. And it's a matter of, like, being on the go then having to attend to someone else, and attune to someone else, and track someone else when I wanted to just be alone, and just be like, I don't want to talk to anybody. 

And I will say my friend and business partner did a great job of acknowledging like, I can tell this is where your energy is, and I'm not going to push that. And that was helpful. But there were definitely days where I was rendered pretty, like, unable to do anything besides get out of bed, and like eat, and take care of my basic needs. 

And for me, I think that brings up a lot of shamefulness still to this day, where I'm like, "Why can't I push through this?" And it's really nothing to push through, it's like you're overstimulated, and you need to really ground and regulate. And I think that, for me, it still brings up some psychological and emotional like thought processes and experiences where I'm like, "Why can't you just fucking do this? Like, why can't you get up and go have this good time with this group." And I'm like, "I can't do it. There's no way I can do that." And asking for what you need in these moments is crucial, but I know it's also challenging for a lot of people as well.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: That experience right there, that moment of like, why can't you just push through this and like, go enjoy this group, I feel like now I understand it. But before I knew I was autistic, I would have that experience so much. It's what I called years ago, with my therapist, before I knew I was autistic, the Plexiglas of like, I cannot get into my experience. 

And I'd be in these, whether I was at a family gathering, or especially, like an extended family vacation, or a social gathering, or a group dinner. Like, I would be sitting there in my head being like, "Get into this experience, get into it, get into it, get into it." And unable to. And I'd have so much confusion around why I kind of get into my experience, so much shame around it. I would start, like, doubting kind of my key relationships of, does this mean there's something wrong with my relationship, that I can't be in this experience? 

But that to me, that kind of when the body puts the brakes on, and it's like, no, like, you're staying in bed today or like you just can't go do that group thing, like you were talking about that experience in that hotel, to me that is like one of those grief moments when I talk about grieving my autism. Like, that is a moment where I grieve being autistic. Those are fucking painful.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, they're really fucking painful. And in your moments, like, your body is then saying, like, having that like, "Finally, like, this is what I needed." But your brain is not saying that to you when you're laying in bed and trying to like recover. What my brain is saying is like, "How can you trick your body into continuing to push through even you don't have anything [CROSSTALK 00:09:48]."

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. How can you bypass this thing your body's doing? Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. Like, how can I do these, like, mental gymnastics of, "Oh, it's okay." Because you're going to, like, fuel up on caffeine, or like, you're going to, like, numb out on alcohol. And that's how you're going [CROSSTALK 00:10:05].

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, the two options, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. 

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, gosh. 

PATRICK CASALE: And, you know, I definitely paid attention to that throughout the 30 days, like, well, you drank a lot in 30 days. And I thought, if I didn't, in those moments, like, it would have felt so overwhelmingly terrible to feel that constant buzz of like anxiety, and tension, and like, constant overwhelm. It was almost [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:31] and I know we're going to have to do an episode on substance use at some point, but-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I was literally just thinking that. I was like, we've got to talk about alcohol. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, but it was challenging. And, you know, as someone who hosts these events, I will find myself defaulting to like, movement, you know, which is like, cleaning up after 30 people. Like [CROSSTALK 00:10:53]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, yeah, that is always my… partly it gives you a role.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah and it's allowing you to like, just be in motion, you know? And not having to talk or process what's happening, which further creates exhaustion and exacerbation in your body because your body is like…

And what I was noticing and I wanted to message you this while I was noticing it was like, everything was intensified, right? So, like, the throbbing of your feet is intensified, the pain in your back is intensified, your frustration tolerance and irritability are massively intensified, everything's heightened. 

And my friend said it to me one day in like one of our last days in Portugal when I was describing, like, how torturous this experience feels like because she's neurotypical, and she's like, waking up bubbly every day. And I'm like, "How the fuck do people do this, first of all?" And she was like, "It sounds like your experience in life is like a open nerve ending that is just being, like, shocked all the time by everything." I was like, "Yeah, that feels pretty freaking accurate." 

DR. MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. So, again, before I had the autism, the way I used to describe my daughter was as if her nervous system was on the outside of her skin, like just a live wire of nerves. And there is something that so viscerally captures the artistic experience with that idea of an open nerve. Yeah, that feels really relatable.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think, like, once you're able to, like, relate to that, and kind of create that picture for somebody else who doesn't get it, it offers a lot of, like, insight into what day-to-day is. But I think, again, circling back to what you said about that grief is that creates an enormous amount of grief because there's no protective like armor that you're putting on and when you have to go out into the world, so it's one of those things where in that moment when you're like, Yeah, that does describe my experience, that is how it feels. And then, my brain's like, "What is the alternative?"

DR. MEGAN NEFF: My life.

PATRICK CASALE: My life.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I rarely leave my house, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I could get emotional talking about this. Like, it does feel like the decision is to have a really small life or to lean into experiences but to be constantly confronted with the too-muchness of the world. I don't like either option. But that's kind of what we have.

PATRICK CASALE: I can feel like emotion for you knowing that our worlds are vastly different in terms of how we're experiencing them. And I think you're right, there's no middle ground here. Is there? Like, I don't know who's found it? I would like to know.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and I guess, now, my, like, I don't know if it's guilt or my protective instincts are coming in of like, I'm sure there's a middle ground, and I'm sure that's my all or nothing thinking saying like we've got two terrible options here. I think there is, I think nature actually provides a middle ground. Like, the one place I can go outside my home and feel restored in nature. 

And I'm Oregon, so whether that's the coast or I live near a forest, so going on walks in the forest. And it not only doesn't take… I mean, yeah, it's the one place I can go out in the world and it recharges me. 

And so, I think nature and green space can be that sort of in between space or like for me, I can't really do restaurants but if I'm eating outside at a restaurant that works so the outdoors. I really live in the wrong state. I mean, it rains, like six months out of the year here. Ever since we got married I've been asking my spouse like, "Can we move to California? I miss the sunshine."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's fair. I think that's a good point, like nature is a good middle ground, such a good regulatory place for people and grounding space. I think that's what was challenging is like, big city, followed by train/planes/chaos of airport or train station. And then like, having to show up, and do the agenda, or the itinerary, or meet with the tour guide, or this person, and like, one I hate being boxed in by fucking scheduling. And that just creates even more immense pressure, I think. But ultimately, it also is just so tiring, like, for any human being, but it was just unbelievably overstimulating. And I just felt so overwhelmed throughout those 30 days. 

And before I left, I told my therapist, I said, "I know these 30 days are going to be really fucking hard, and here's what I would like my goal to be, is that I would like to go into it knowing that most days are going to be a challenge. But I would also like to somehow be able to acknowledge the little things, like the beautiful scenery that I get to see, and the good food, and the good conversations that come up with random people that I meet, and I'd like to be able to have both exist and be true."

And I do think that was captured because although I would say the extent of the 30 days was unbelievably overwhelming, and I don't think I could ever put myself through another 30 days like that, there were good moments, too. There were definitely moments that I can anchor into, and remember. And I think that's the way that I can get through those experiences is to acknowledge like, all right, this sucked, but one glimpse of like, positivity, and solid connection, and food that was good, or like beautiful stuff. And I think that was helpful for me, for sure.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that ability to hold the both ends and to intentionally be like bringing into mind the sensory pleasurable moments and the delight. Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Such a therapist way of thinking, too. Like [CROSSTALK 00:17:36]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: It really is, yeah, yeah. I'm doing… in a couple months, my workbook on gratitude. So, I've been diving into the gratitude research of it. It's been a good reminder of like, yeah, like, what we're priming our brains to see, like, we will see, and the power of that. I'm kind of diverging, I guess, it's literally called Divergent Conversations. So, I guess I don't need to ask permission for that. 

But this idea of gratitude and sensory overload, also I'm processing as I'm talking, this doesn't always go well. But I think that's part of what makes travel for me a more okay sensory experience, is it feels like it's selective sensory overload. Like, I know I'm opting into that and I know why I'm doing it. And it's because of the value of, like, having a new experience and engaging with other cultures. Like, these are such high values for me, that I've somehow psychologically prepared for the sensory overload. And so, then when it happens, it feels like I have, like a sturdiness, psychologically, to hold that.

Like, if I go to the grocery store, and I get sensory overloaded, the narrative that starts running is like, "Dammit, I can't even go to the grocery store." And then, it starts running this narrative of, like, the shame, and the grief, and the like, throwing myself a pity party for how limited my body is. But if I get sensory overloaded when I'm, you know, in Germany, with my son having an awesome experience, it's like, yeah, I signed up for this, I chose this. 

So, there's a more empowering narrative that comes on my mind around it. And my travel experience last summer was a really powerful realization of, I mean, sensory overload is sensory overload, but also, and also, the narrative we tell ourselves about that sensory overload impacts our experience of that sensory overload. And that was a really powerful discovery for me after Germany of like, okay, I can handle this more than I thought I could. And just, I mean, yeah, I can use accommodations and there's some things I can do to manage sensory overload, but there's a lot of that that's outside of my control. But I can have some influence over the story I'm telling about the experience, if that makes sense.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think that feels somewhat freeing in a way to know like, there is the ability to almost train your brain or at least prepare your brain, and strengthen it to say, like, I acknowledge that this is going to be overwhelming, but the payoff is worth in a lot of ways, too. 

And I think that's what travel is for so many of us, you know? Like, this romanticized idea of like, what life can be like, but then also, it is like, new sights, new scenery, new smells, new sounds, new people. And that stuff is on the positive end of the spectrum for me, in terms of stimulation, opposed to the opposite side, where it's like, everything is just too much all the time. But you're right, if I go to the grocery store, it's a fucking nightmare for me. So, like [CROSSTALK 00:20:58]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's like the mustard was not worth that or whatever. 

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. I mean, so being able to select and, you know, you and I have talked about time, and energy, and how important these things are, and maybe that's a big part of it, too, is just the acknowledgment of the intentionality behind the planning, and the trip, and, and knowing that, yeah, it's going to be overwhelming, but here's what's important to me in life. And I know that if I'm going to spend X amount of energy, I'd rather do it doing than leaving my house to run errands or whatever the case may be.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of selective and value-based choice around… And that's, again, where, like, you know, the conversation of privilege comes back in, right? You and I both have the privilege of being able to work from home. So, some people are using all their sensory spoons on work and that's it. And then, they're coming home, they're crashing, they're waking up to an end. Before I was working from home, all my sensory spoons was going to work and I was, like, going into deficit. So, it's also, like, not always a choice for people. It's all going towards survival.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's a great point to make, and just to remember, as well, and reframe. Yeah, you know, it's an interesting topic. But I use the platform in a lot of ways, like, one of my talks was on neurodiversity at our retreat. And that was really powerful to have 30 people sit there, and like, experience that, not only those who don't know, me or who do, but like people's spouses who came on the event, and like, speaking of folks, I thought that was really fucking cool. 

So, those things energize me. So, I was trying to like, okay, if your battery is at 28%, you know, how can you give X amount of that to this talk, and then crash afterwards? So, I was trying to get permission to like, and I will say that in my talk too, like, after I'm done today I'm done. 

And another thing I noticed for myself is task switching is so challenging, like, at the end of three days of this trip we went from Spain to Portugal, and the retreat was over. And I noticed as soon as the retreat was over, I was like, "I'm done. Like, why am I continuing on this fucking trip? "And I just realized, like, okay, in preparation next time, once the event is over, everything's got to come to an end because in my mind everything is now finalized and wrapped up. And I'm trying to convince myself, like, to be able to get through the next three days in a new country. 

So, it was very interesting experience. And I met some people along the way. Like, I was on a food tour one night in Spain. And this woman, it was just my friend and two other people that seemed to be the gist every time we went on a tour, it was just either my friend and I, or one or two other people. Must have been shoulder season. 

But after two or three hours, she looked at me and we were, like, walking across this bridge, was like 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night. And she's like, "Are you autistic?" And I was like, "Hmm, strange question, but ballsy." And I was like, "Yeah." And she's like, "Oh, my daughter is two and I just noticed a lot of similarities here." And then wanted to pick my brain about a million things about how I can help her daughter. 

But I thought that was very cool because like, I am trying to do everything in my power to support her and have a relationship with her, and you know, I don't know what to do, and it was just, I think, it felt like a great moment of connection to just be able to be transparent, and vulnerable, and also, offer some guidance as well, and some feedback, and support.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: This happens too. That happened at the parade. Well, I think you may be self-disclosed at the parade with the kid who is, I think, autistic, ADHD. That's a really interesting… So, the idea of like, being visibly autistic, Devon Price talks about that in his book a lot as like that's a form of self-advocacy. I guess I've made some assumptions of where I wouldn't think you would be visibly autistic to where a stranger on a train would be asking, "Are you autistic?" That's really interesting to me. 

Do you think you present like, what am I trying to ask? I guess I'm trying to ask, yeah, like, do you feel like you present visibly autistic? What's that experience like for you?

PATRICK CASALE: I think that when I'm not in the mood to do something, I probably present pretty visibly autistic.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Through stimming or through like, in what…?

PATRICK CASALE: Stimming, very short answers, not making eye contact when I respond to things. Really not… and I'm very, like when I don't want to be somewhere it's pretty well known that like my body language, and my facial expressions, and probably affect gets flatter, but I didn't want to be there at that food tour. Yeah, I was exhausted, and I was like, "I don't want to fucking go." I'm glad I did. But like, yeah, I think it's one of those situations where…

But I thought that was an interesting question. You know, we were also in a small group all night, so there was some, like, conversation going on and there was some socializing going on, too. But it was just very interesting to me to be, like, out of the blue as we were, like, finishing up and wrapping up. Like, "Oh, by the way, is this a thing?" And I was like, "Okay, yeah."

But you know what's interesting, if we would have had that conversation earlier in the night, I would have been all into the experience. Like, I would have been, like, yeah, way less removed from it instead of just being, I'm just here, I don't want to fucking do this.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I feel like in public I'm the same way, short answers, like, yeah, flat affect. I think it just gets coded as like, for women as like bitchiness, or mean, or standoffish, but then again, she had an intimate knowledge of autism because of her kid. That's really interesting. 

So, my son just switched to at-home learning, but he was going to school before that. And there's a parent who I'd often see at drop off and pickup. And I was like, "Okay, I can tell they're autistic." And I thought about like, do I go up and ask them, and like, make this connection? But then, I was like, but will they experience that as offensive? Like, it was this really interesting moment of like, when I can kind of tell someone's autistic, and I want to make that connection, but then I have no idea how they are… A, if they're aware they're autistic, B, where they are in their process of like, integrating that as an affirming part of their identity. 

So, it's always an interesting experience of also not just being visible, but then, also when you're kind of tracking other people who are visibly autistic, and then whether or not to ask, or, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that once you have a very good understanding of yourself and what to look for in people, it becomes much more apparent in a lot of relationships. And I feel the same way where I'm like, "Oh, do I want to have this conversation?" But, usually, opt not to until someone brings it up. But like at the retreat, even, I was paying attention to people around me, like, because I was like, I have a sense that some of these folks are probably not aware that they're either autistic, or ADHD, or autistic ADHD. 

And I was just paying attention to their social interactions, and their body language, and how they were moving through the experience. And then, some of them came up to me afterwards and self-disclosed and was like, "Thank you so much for just talking about this openly all the time because I can't do that. "And I think that, you know, hopefully, that's the goal of this podcast for us, for people is just to be able to talk about it more openly together.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's probably one of the top themes in like DMs or emails is people, especially, people in our profession, the mental health profession who are autistic or ADHD, but want to be, like, financially safe, or career safe, to be out there. Like, number one thing is like thank you for being visible, which, honestly, I don't know how much, like, I think it was a combination of, like, privilege and naivety, and impulsivity, that I, like, just came out as autistic, and yeah, changed my life around. But yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I think it is a privileged place to be able to openly talk about it all the time. But I'm glad that it is impactful too, you know, because I know at one point we're going to have a different conversation on the podcast about stuff you and I have been DMing about and in terms of self-diagnosis, and social media influence on [INDISCERNIBLE 00:30:37]. And, you know, it is something to think about too, about like, being openly outed, and on social media, and doing that in a way where you don't have a lot of control over the narrative either.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: What do you mean by that?

PATRICK CASALE: So, if you're putting it out to the world, like, I applaud you, and 100%, but you don't always have control over the impact or the fallout that can cause from doing that well. Like, family, friends, colleagues, you know, unfortunately, there can be a lot of trauma that is inflicted too. So, it's just a challenge to figure out, like, when is the right time, and is there a right time for everybody? And I think it's important to have these conversations.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I kind of tend to caution people post-diagnosis discovery, like, sit with it before you kind of start disclosing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah because I think there's such a desire to like, claim, right? And identify. And I think it's really powerful and empowering. But I think there can be ramifications that you're not looking for, unfortunately, and…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And you've got to have the confidence in the diagnosis to withstand all the people in the life. They will often say like, "No, you're not." And then compare you to like their seven-year-old white nephew. So, that's one.

And then, you've got to have like, energy spoons to educate people as you disclose so that… there's so much, yeah, and then the, like, unexpected fallout. Sometimes it's really beautiful. Like, sometimes there's that ripple effect of like, many people in the family system then get identified or diagnosed. And it's this like, beautiful new lens that brings people together. But yeah, sometimes it goes really sideways and becomes this divisive thing. 

PATRICK CASALE: Well, that's good foreshadowing for a future episode. So, I don't know why my brain diverged there. But you know, that's on my mind as well. And I think that it's just something I feel good about right now in terms of being able to have spoken about that, and have private inside conversations with some people over the last couple of weeks. And it's been cool, because I mean, it's just great to see more and more people talking about neurodiversity in general. And it feels good that there seems to be a really proactive advocacy movement right now.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I started in this space almost two years ago, and like, oh, my gosh, in the last few years a lot has happened.

PATRICK CASALE: You're a big part of that, too.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: It's weird. I don't, like, see myself that way. Like, I think I somehow objectively know that's probably true, but like, I don't experience it that way or I don't know, it's weird. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Well, we're in that awkward transition time, so…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, is it our time to do our awkward goodbye?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think it's time to do our awkward goodbye. And, you know, I think, also, just really excited to be releasing on Friday, not that anyone who lives is going to know that but…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: But yeah, but this Friday we'll be releasing episode one, and two, and then, yeah. Oh, wait, okay, before we leave, yeah, I'm actually curious, like, how are you feeling about us releasing? Can we talk about that here?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. Nobody's going to hear this for weeks anyway.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. That's why I think it'd be kind of interesting, actually.

PATRICK CASALE: I think it's, you know, I already have a podcast that has a following, but this is a different type of podcast, you know? Like, the other one is much more entrepreneurial and focused on like mindset stuff, and the episodes that I've done with you, or with other neurodivergent entrepreneurs have always been hits. And I've enjoyed them quite a bit. 

But I think there's a added layer here of vulnerability and intimacy. And like, this is a topic that is our reality, right? Like, and I also think I also acknowledge the fact that these types of conversations are going to be really impactful and emotional for a lot of people who listen, and I think that feels like some layer of responsibility there in a way of, like, how we show up. I don't know. I feel like it's complicated, but I'm excited for it to get out there. And I've enjoyed our process for figuring out how to best do this together, and how to navigate timing and scheduling, and the trip, and just trying to stay in a rhythm together, and honoring what we both need when we don't feel up for it. Like, I think it's been a cool experience so far. What about you?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I'm really excited about this project. I think when we started talking about doing it, I was really intentional of like, I want to move beyond education, which I should probably think about, like, do I actually have the luxury of doing that as someone who's a psychologist. But anyway, back to intent, I was very aware, like on Instagram, on my website, it's pretty educational. And I'm not doing a lot of reflection of my experience as been autistic. So, I think you mentioned this in the DMs of like, it feels kind of like a vulnerable thing to put out there. 

And yeah, I mean, I guess that will be interesting of depending on, like, for example, when I say that there's moments I grieve my autism, I imagine that some people will really… I think, for some people to give them permission, I think for some people that will make it sound like I'm not neurodivergent affirming. 

And so, I think that would be a hard like, if my experience becomes a pain point in the autistic community, I think that will be harder because I'm talking about my experience versus myself as an expert. And I think that's muddy, right? Because sometimes I am bringing in research, and I'm talking from an expertise, sometimes I'm talking from my experience, and we're going to get feedback on all of that. And I think that's going to feel really vulnerable. And I will probably not read a lot of the comments for that reason, or like, ask you, or like my VA to kind of filter the comments because those things I know can kind of hijack my nervous system when there's a wave of stuff around that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. Well-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: So, excitement and vulnerability.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it sounds like we're in the right place, then. Excitement and vulnerability. So, hopefully, when we circle back after this episode is released we have more to say about that. But I agree, 100%. And I've got your back in that. And I know that we can rely on the people that we hire, and help support our businesses, help with stuff like that as well. So, yeah, I'm excited and I'm nervous and now all the things, so…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: What's our awkward goodbye tagline? We like had a tagline once upon a time, a place where we, like, are okay with awkward goodbyes.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think it was just like, we'll see you next week. Bye.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I love the directness of that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, so everyone that's listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast on all major platforms out every single Friday. We'll see you next week. Goodbye.