Episode 89: Reflections and Insights From 2024
Jan 16, 2025
Show Notes
For neurodivergent individuals, the journey toward intentional living and work-life balance comes with both unique challenges and profound opportunities for growth.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, reflect on their past 2024 year, discuss pivotal moments of personal development, and share their hopes and strategies for a more intentional future.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain insights on how Patrick Casale has navigated his post-surgery recovery, focusing on balancing energy with new opportunities and the significant role of a values-based decision framework.
- Learn about Dr. Neff’s journey towards reduced workaholism, prioritizing family, and realigning her values, especially through her health challenges and boundary-setting measures.
- Discover the hosts’ reflections on their nearly two-year podcast journey, their intentional shift towards more cohesive content, and their plans for future seasonal structuring inspired by other successful podcasts.
As you reflect on your own growth and challenges, consider how aligning your actions with your values can help you lead a more intentional and fulfilling life. Embrace the process of setting boundaries, seeking balance, and prioritizing your well-being for a healthier and more centered future.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are almost in 2025. It's actually December 30th today, when we're recording this. And we are kind of recapping our year, and touching based on the episode that we did last year about intention setting and what we wanted for 2024. So, I noticed you grabbed your stuffy as soon as we started talking about this. So, what's already coming up for you?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh. That does sound like grabbing my stuffy. No, it was more like before we sat down. I sat down I was like, "Oh, I need weight." So, I grabbed a blanket and my stuffy. And I just sat on my desk, and I was like, "Oh, I wanted to, like, squeeze that, and give myself some proprioceptive input."
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, love it. Yeah, yeah. So, I just re-listened to the episode because you suggested that. And I don't know if I want to admit this honestly on the air, but it's the first podcast episode I've ever listened to my entire life, and [CROSSTALK 00:04:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: That's wild.
PATRICK CASALE: I know it is wild. It's wild. My other podcast has 180 episodes. This has almost 90. It's wild, I get it.
One thing that really stood out to me, well, there's a lot that stood out to me, and I should have written it down, my voice, you had mentioned that via text, is so much better in like current day than it was a year ago. And for me, that was honestly very eye-opening because there are a lot of times where I get really frustrated with myself, still, about my voice and the struggles that I have. But it was just like, "Wow, there has definitely been a significant improvement over the last year."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that was one of the first things I noticed when I re-listened to it last night, which was, yeah, cool to, like, be able to see that progress. And I think that's part of reflection that's really powerful this time of year, being able to get a snapshot of past selves because we live with ourselves day to day, right? So, it's hard to notice subtle shifts. Like, if your voice is getting like a tiny, incremental better every day, you're not going to notice that until you, like, go and actually listen to a podcast, Patrick, from a year ago. And you're like, "Oh, yeah, I can see that."
And I do. I mean, I shared in last year's episode, like, I have mixed relationships to New Year's resolution and that whole process. But I do really value the process of reflection and intention setting.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too. Yeah, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to kind of zoom out. And I think when you're in it all the time things can feel really overwhelming. They can feel really pressure-filled. And like every day is just endless amounts of stress or overwhelm, but there's so many moments to, like, truly reflect on, and like, think about, not even the progress, but just if we did have any accountability, if we did have any revelations, if there was progress or anything that was made.
And there were tough times too. And we can talk about that stuff, for sure. But one thing I want to say is that you and I have now almost been doing this for two years, and I feel like, I don't know, I consider you a very, very close friend. And I'm just grateful to have you in my life. And we've had some hard conversations together this year. And I'm just grateful that we've been able to do that. And I'm also going to meet you in person for the first time ever, next Friday.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, is it next Friday? Oh shit. I have so much I have to do before then.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. No, we started this two year, like, because we started recording in January of 2023. And then, we didn't start releasing it till the spring. But yeah, this is two years for us. And likewise, like, I consider you, like, one of my very close friends.
And, yeah, I do think it would be interesting. It makes sense it didn't happen on air, but we have had some, like, rupture and repair over the last year. And actually, I think that's really healthy to model. That's something that's hard for a lot of neurodivergent folks. Actually, I just shared this in my newsletter yesterday. I was talking about my tendency for all-or-nothing thinking, which is part of what makes resolutions hard for me. Because once I break it, it's like, "That's ruined for the year."
But I have a tendency to be that way in relationships, too. Like, when I do something that I feel shitty about, I have so much shame that I tend to remove myself from the relationship and like, "Well, I'll just start again in a new friendship where I won't make any mistakes."
And that was my pattern for so much in my life. And I mean, getting married, having kids kind of forces you to work through that because, yes, you can't just have new kids every time you mess up in your parental relationship. So, yeah, yeah, like, relationally, I think it's been a rich year for us in that way.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think that I often experience a lot of, like, RSD in friendships when tough conversations are sometimes hard, and I definitely immediately go into that mindset of like, "I did everything wrong, I'm a bad person." It creates a lot of insecurity, it creates a lot of reaction. And then, I think it's good to have those conversations, and to sit with those feelings, and to name those things. So, that's one thing that really stood out to me.
Other things that stood out to me, I'm trying to think of what we talked about, specifically, like what we wanted more of and less of. And did we really, like, stick to that?
I know a lot of my conversation was like getting ready to go on this, like, world tour, retreat, extravaganza from January till June. And I was talking about romanticism, which we've done an episode on which was a lot of fun, expectation, and the desire for it all to be done before it even began, and how I would not do that to myself again in 2025.
And I can say confidently that I have done that, and I feel really good about having to learn through the experiences of, like, over-eagerness, impulsivity, excitability, romanticism, to really finding neutrality or common ground with my system and trying to find balance because that was a big thing that I've been seeking, and it's been a hard thing to obtain. And I don't think I've clearly, like, obtained it fully, but I think I've done a much better job with intentionality.
MEGAN NEFF: That's really powerful, Patrick. And I feel like that takes quite a bit of kind of depth work to work through, especially, the romantification. Yeah, I remember, like, the line that stood out to me, that I said a year ago to you was, "It sounds like you've created a life that you want but you don't want it. And the fact that you can be more present, and not always wanting to escape the moment you're in." That's huge.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it was huge. And, you know, it's a work in progress. I have a Ted Lasso calendar on my desk, and the thing that it says right now is, "I'm a work in progress."
MEGAN NEFF: That's amazing, I'm a work in progress. That's so good.
PATRICK CASALE: And I think that I can embrace that. And, you know, those six months were pretty tough of being in different countries, traveling non-stop, different time zones, sleep issues, sensory overwhelm, autistic burnout, you name it.
And I really used the summertime to do nothing, and just relax, and not try to plan anything, and it really worked really well. And I really tried to stick to my goal, like I said, I think on this podcast and with my therapist at the time, I'm only going to schedule work stuff in odd numbered months in 2025. And I have successfully done that.
And I feel really good about that because I've had to say no to some opportunities. And some of it is black-and-white thinking, like you were saying. It's an even-numbered month and I'm like, "No, I'm not doing that in April. If you said March, maybe, but no, I'm not doing that." But I feel really good about that boundary setting.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I feel like with boundary setting we sometimes need all or nothing, right? Because it's easier. Like, it helps with the decision paralysis. It's like, that's really tempting, but it's an even month, I have to say no to it. Like, I actually think in that regard, sometimes that all-or-nothing thinking can be really helpful when it's hard for us to set boundaries with ourselves.
And that was a lot of our conversation a year ago, was both of us, we talked a lot about workaholism. We talked a lot about wanting to make our yeses more intentional, which meant also making our no's more intentional. And so, I think that's a great example of setting kind of a hard boundary with yourself that I'm sure at times is hard to keep because I'm sure there's tempting offers that come on even months. I mean, April, that's like, a huge offer for folks like us.
PATRICK CASALE: My friend was like, "Hey, I have a summit in Texas in April right after you get back from Ireland. Would you speak?" And I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do that." "Well, what if we pushed it back by two weeks, would you still come?" And I'm like, "I may regret it next year, but I can't commit to that, and I'm just going to say no across the board."
So, I feel more confident in myself in that way, and allowing for the space for other things to come that are more aligned with what I want to be doing. So, I feel good about that.
How about you? Because I know you talked a lot about workaholism in that episode. And there was some workaholism, I think, attached to, like, grief of COVID that happened at a speaking event, and how that has really impacted and disrupted some things in your life over the last couple of years?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, it was really interesting to listen to that back. And actually, Luke and I were just talking about this the other night, how this winter feels better than past winters, which is odd because I've had a, like, intense flare-up of fatigue this fall. And what I was realizing when I was listing all that I was doing a year ago, I was like, "Oh, that's why it feels better."
So, a year ago, my practice was still open. I'd made the decision to close it, but I gave everyone a six-month transition. So, I was still doing two full days of one-on-one meetings a week. I was releasing a workbook a week. I was working on the burnout workbook. I was writing a blog post a week. I was doing a newsletter a week. I was making all my social media stuff. I was working 90-hour work weeks. And when I've listened to that podcast back, I had a visceral, like I saw the video, and I saw the way my room was set up a year ago, and with it is the association of stress, and anxiety, and so much, I think, kind of disorientation. Like, I feel like I have a lot more clarity now. I'm sure I'll look back on this in a year and be like, "Oh my gosh. Like, 2024/beginning of 2025 Megan Anna was so X, Y, Z."
Which is great. Like, it's a sign of growth, if we can look back at our past self and see those things. So, yeah, I have trimmed down so much. And some of it is interesting because I talked a lot about both health and workaholism. Some of it was forced.
So, in July, we had a family gathering. And again, I'm pretty careful about exposure, as much as I can be, but I suspect I got COVID because I had like a cold for a month, and the all the signs point to COVID. And I've never experienced the level of fatigue that I experienced this fall. Like, if I could work three hours a day, that was a good day. And to not have access to my mind was so painful. Like, for a long time, I've not had access to physical energy. That's just been part of my baseline. But to not have access to my mind was so painful.
I ended up kind of getting out of some agreements that I'd agreed on. So, there's very much a forced, "I literally cannot work." I hired some new people.
So, on the flip side of that, that also really helped bring to light what's important to me. I actually think that, in a weird way, kind of cut through the workaholism because I couldn't. And in that season, I've been realizing what does matter to me. And I've just started on a new medication. I think I'm starting to… Often, when I get COVID it's like four or five months of terribleness. I think I'm starting to slowly kind of heal from that most recent episode. And what feels most important to me is like having energy for time with my kids, with my spouse. Like, there has been a big value reorientation that's come through this season of, like, terrible health flare up.
PATRICK CASALE: It's fascinating to me when something terrible, whether it be health-related or tragedy helps you shift perspective and focus, and it almost forces you to, right? Like, it's, like, really forces you to take that look in the mirror.
And there's grief in that too. I know how much importance work holds for you and how important your mind is for you. I totally relate to that because that's my, being honest, it's my biggest fear, is like not having access to it, just because, physically, you know, we've talked about chronic pain all the time, but I don't really ever feel good so…
And I think there's grief in that. But I think there's also, it sounds like beautiful moments in that too, of just reconnection, and refocusing, and clarification on things as well. And I think that's super important, all things considered.
And knowing you, you know behind the scenes from this, like you mentioned yesterday, that you just hired another full-time person to help you in your work. And I think you said something like, "Obviously, I'm going to be making less money, but I'm also going to be opening up more energy." And I think that is so freaking huge.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it is. And I had to work through anxiety for that, right? Like, I'm the primary income, like, for our family. And like, I think a lot of families that have neurodivergent children, it's too hard to have two working parents. And so, like, there was a lot of anxiety to work through of, right, actually prioritizing my time over money. But that does feel value-aligned. While it does create different stressors, it's like, yeah, that feels very value-aligned for me.
And I'm impressed I was able to make that decision, I think, because I do run anxious, I do have somewhat of a scarcity mindset that, again, I don't think I would have made that decision if it wasn't for the intensity of my health flare up.
And so, yeah, it is really interesting to listen to it back. And like I was like, "I want to work on health, and I want to work on workaholism." And I didn't realize that, like, a health flare-up would actually help me with the work stuff. And then, in doing that, I actually feel like I have more capacity to also focus on my health, or maybe it's just felt more urgent to like, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it definitely takes more, like, priority. But I think, you know, that's what happens a lot of the time because last year, when we recorded this episode I was mentioning, like, stepping away from being a therapist. And that was my first year of, like, major recovery from throat surgery. And it's still not recovered. Like, I can hear it now, but it's not nearly as profound to me. And it did create that shift in focus and perspective of like, okay, my energy is even more limited than I typically have in terms of being just a low-energy person, I'm going to have to really become significantly more decisive and intentional, which is really hard. I mean, it's still really hard because I do get excited about new opportunities. I get excited about new possibilities. And it's almost like a minute-by-minute countering, like, thought process where it's like, "Oh, that's really exciting. Oh no, but that would cause this. Oh, that's really exciting, but that would create, like, so much energy loss." So, it's like a constant reevaluation.
And you had mentioned, like, you've done this multiple times on this podcast, talking about, like, a values-based system for determining what you say yes and no to. And how much energy is it going to cost, and is it values-aligned if I'm going to use this much energy? So, I've been really trying to incorporate that as well, just to like, okay, if I'm going to commit to this family gathering I have to know how much energy that's going to cost. But I know it's really values-aligned, so I'm more likely to say yes, versus the things that, like, might be quick gratification, where in reality it's like, is the juice worth the squeeze here?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad that framework has been helpful. It does create a bit of, like, decision analysis fatigue, but, like, it is a really helpful framework. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I mean, I don't want to pivot us too fast if you still have…
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, good.
MEGAN NEFF: …thoughts. But I'm curious, as you look ahead to 2025, like what are your some of intentions as you go into this year?
PATRICK CASALE: I've been trying to, like, really visualize one or two words for myself that I really want to move into 2025 with, not to just feel repetitive, but one of those two words is definitely going to be intentionality. And I'm going to try really hard to anchor into that in everything that I do, all of the big decisions I have to make, just really approaching them with openness and intentionality.
And the other one is decisiveness. I have felt really stuck professionally for like the last three years. And I think it's really time to embrace who I want to be, and who I think I am in a lot of, like, the professional things that I do and the creative things that I do. So, I think those are going to be my two.
MEGAN NEFF: Those go well together. And, yeah, we've had conversations about that, that kind of stuckness and kind of being in between a couple spaces, professionally.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: What about you? Yeah. I like the idea of, like, finding a word to anchor into that feels really grounded. And I think, like, last year, I feel like my word would have been slow, like slowing down.
It's interesting, I think if last year was slow, I feel like 2025 I want my word to be expand or expansive. And I mean that in several ways.
Like one, actually, I recently made the decision to go back to therapy. I worked with a fantastic therapist for about four years, and at the end of it was my autism discovery. And it actually felt really important to end the work when we did because it felt like coming to the autism understanding, the diagnosis, the, like, probably spent another nine months, like, deeply, kind of reflecting on what it meant. Like, it felt important to kind of end that course of treatment at that point because it felt like I came in with a lot of questions and I got them answered. And so, I've not been in therapy, I think, for about little over two years now.
And now I'm sitting more with like, okay, I can name all my experiences, I can name like I defensively go into monotropic focus mode to escape my life. I, like, experience struggle, like, with into intimacy, like IRL because being around other human bodies is hard. But now I want to like more deeply understand, okay, what has that impact been on me psychologically throughout my life? Like, or even the workaholism piece, right? As my energy comes back, it is easy to work at 10… Or not easy, but like, it's easy to fall back into patterns, like working a 10-hour day if I have energy for it.
So, beyond the, like, well, ADHD is a part of why I am this way. I want to go to like the next level of, okay, so, like, one, yeah, just like, more deeply working through it.
So, I think expand psychically is a part of it. I think expand in the sense of, I do want to prioritize more real-life connection. I've talked about how my world feels very digital. And part of that is like, going to Belize, which, again, talk about mixed values. Like, I'm terrified of getting COVID, and of that sending me back into another four- or five-months spiral. And it's like, let's experiment with this. Let's try a real-life thing. Let's experience life, and travel, and community.
And we've talked about hosting a retreat together in Bali. So, like, there's real life experiences I'm looking forward to, and that would be part of expand.
And then, also just, I would say, the tone of my writing, how I'm writing. I think I'm shifting from kind of direct education to more reflective writing. And that's also part of expansion for me.
So, yeah, I think my word for this year would be expand, but in the like frantic… Like a slow expand, like a steady expand, not the franticness that I was doing a year ago.
PATRICK CASALE: I love that for you, and I love, like you said, not only the travel piece because you had mentioned that last episode or a year ago, of wanting to get out of the house more, and to be in public more with people, in general, to get back into feeling like can I be comfortable with this in any capacity? So, I love that you're going to try to do that. And it's a risk, for sure, but I think it's a values-driven, calculated one.
I love that you are writing more reflectively. I think, like, through the course of this podcast, I personally have seen you open up more and more and more and share more and more and more. And I think when we started this two years ago, I don't think that would have been the case very often.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, I was definitely. And actually, this has kind of always been my pattern. Like, I have to first get my, like, knowledge base. And I lead with that because that's less vulnerable for me. And then, I tend to, once I feel secure in, like, the knowledge base, I can usually dip into a more reflective space. And that turn has happened for me. Like, the first two years of, like, discovering Neurodivergent Insights was all about just, like, accumulating knowledge, and now it's in more of a season of like, okay, like, what does this mean about my felt experience of the world of relationships? Like, just my curiosities have shifted to a different place, but I needed the knowledge base first.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally makes perfect sense. I like that. Like, thinking about this in like, seasons of life too. I think that's always helpful for me as a reflective process. And I just want to give us both credit because I feel like last year, when we recorded this, I don't know, maybe we were just struggling more it seemed, like, when I listened to the episode, like, and that doesn't mean we're not struggling. But it just feels like there's been growth this year. And I feel really good about it in general.
And there's been some tough stuff that has happened personally here. You know, we've talked about it. Like the Asheville, Western North Carolina stuff going on, and it's going to be ongoing, so it's something to navigate constantly.
But even, like, zooming back to two months ago, when I really didn't even know if I could be here till now, I feel a lot more anchored in, and centered, and grounded here despite the challenges. And I think it's just kind of using some of the stuff that we're talking about right now as well, and really helping me in that process too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That was interesting, also, to, like, reflect back of, like, a year ago, neither of us knew like the hardships that would be a part of 2024 for us. And like that, there have been hard things. And like, Asheville, particularly, was and is terrible. And the fact we can both point to growth amidst, like, both having unexpected, hard things happen this last year.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: It feels poignant.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I know you're not going to like this [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:12] question. Are there things in 2025 that you're looking forward to, or that you're, like, proud of? You wrote a book this year. You published a book this year. So, that's awesome. And…
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah. Like, time is foggy. Yeah, did Self-Care for Autistic People come out in 2024?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, yeah. That was a big deal, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You were talking about it last time, or I was mentioning it last time on the episode. I heard myself say, and you were in the process of publishing, and you're [CROSSTALK 00:31:43]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …a book. So, you did that.
MEGAN NEFF: It's so funny, people would always ask me, like, how's it doing? Is it selling well? And I'm like, "I don't know." And I, like, went and looked the other day, and it's sold about 15,000 copies, which for a book in traditional [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:58], like, the 10,000 mark is kind of, like, this is a success.
And I was like, "Wow, that feels like…" And more than that, like, I've gotten a lot of really positive feedback from the community about it. So, yeah, that's felt really good. I do feel proud about that. And I appreciate that you realize, like, that's hard for me to name, yeah.
And then, I wrote, with the same publisher, I really liked them, I wrote the Autistic Burnout workbook, which will come out in April of 2025. So, that'll…
And then, I was queuing up other book contracts, but that's when the fatigue flare up of summer fall hit. I made a really hard decision to cancel some book contracts and some speaking contracts. But, like, I feel a lot lighter not having a contract saying I'm going to write a book this year, which this will be the first year in a few where I'm not going into it with a contract to write a book. And it is interesting.
I also have less FOMO. I'm like, yeah, because I think I've just-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:33:10] a lot, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And again, maybe it's the realignment of values through the energy crash. But it's just like, Yeah, that's cool. And, gosh, that takes a lot of frantic energy that I don't have, and I don't want the pressure of that. And like, I'm content. I don't feel like I need to keep, like, leveling up in my, I don't know, building and releasing of things.
PATRICK CASALE: I love that for you because I think one of your exact quotes was like having FOMO and getting all these offers from bigger name personalities or bigger name places to do these collaborations or these projects, and the FOMO of saying no. And I hear you say that you feel content and that you feel lighter. I mean, that's amazing to me to just hear that, and to get to experience that.
MEGAN NEFF: It's amazing to feel it, to be able to feel it, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, I feel weird saying this. I feel like I'm, like going to get in trouble. So, one conflict I've kind of had, but I also think has been helpful, you know how special interests kind of will run a course for a while? Like, I mean, I think autism, ADHD, and neurodiversity will always be a special interest in the sense that, like, if I went to a coffee shop and I was overhearing people talk about it, like, everything would perk up, and I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, I need to jump into this conversation."
But I also feel like I may be special interests burned out a little bit, and so, I think that's actually helping with having less FOMO is, like, the first, I would say, two years was a intense combination of like passion, social justice, sensitivity, special interest, energy. And that's why I was able to work as much as I was. And the special interest of it has mellowed out quite a bit.
And I'm actually in a point where like, I' m longing for a new special interest to enter my life. I've been sending the vibes out to the universe for the last year, like, "Please bring me another special interest." But that's part of it for me, is that I made a career out of my special interest, and I am glad I did. But also, I kind of burned out in that sense, from my special interest.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I mean, we've talked about this on here before, just your special interest and your lived experience turning into your career, becoming all-encompassing, right? And like, then all of a sudden you're known for this thing, then all of a sudden you're getting, like, all these eyes on you, being perceived, I know your favorite thing in the world. And then, like, it doesn't mean that you're any less passionate about the topics, right? But it does mean that it probably took an enormous amount of your energy over the last couple of years, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that would be an interesting conversation of, like, what happens, like, when the special energy, like Stardust dies down, especially, when… Because a lot of us make careers out of our special interests. Yeah, that'd be an interesting conversation to have with multiple people.
PATRICK CASALE: Sounds like a good series. So, I mean, I feel like I'm constantly living in that world where I'm like, "The Stardust is gone. How do I get it back?" Yeah, I can relate. But glad to hear this for you, for sure.
So, honestly, just as your fiend, like, I'm just glad to hear that you feel content and you feel ready to move into a chapter where you get to pace, and you get to really be intentional, and move into that process.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: Who knew that giving compliments on this podcast would lead to awkward silences.
MEGAN NEFF: It's so entertaining Patrick complimenting Megan Anna.
PATRICK CASALE: It's who we are. So, yeah, I'm trying to think of other questions I have about this last year. Do you have a favorite series that pops out to you that we did?
MEGAN NEFF: Ooh, two. I mean, oh gosh. So, the first two that popped in my head were OCD and Giftedness, I think, because I learned so much through both those series. But then, I also really liked the Autism and ADHD series that you and I did. But OCD and Giftedness will stand out because I learned a lot from those series. And, like, selfishly, I love the series because it's like, we get to have conversations with people, and I get to learn new things. So, it feeds my intellectual overexcitability critter.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I really liked those. How about you? What were some of your favorite series?
PATRICK CASALE: I actually think it was the Giftedness series. I really did like the ADHD and autism series that we did just because I liked the way that we worked through the DSM, but also, tried really hard to give a really affirming take on things, and kind of challenge some of that, too. But I really liked the Giftedness series. I learned a lot about myself. I validated some inner child wounding parts of myself. I realized that there are a lot of reasons that I still struggle with certain aspects of my life. So, it felt like free therapy.
MEGAN NEFF: I loved that for you, by the way. Like, I could see the like, aha, moments, like, kind of twinkle. And like, I loved that for you. And I loved, like, kind of watching that.
PATRICK CASALE: Thanks. I probably like this series more than you did, but like, I enjoyed the entrepreneurial series. Like, I enjoyed talking about, like, the creative aspects of, like, what types of things people are doing in the world, and there are some things in their own ways that they've applied their personalities and their preferences. And so, I enjoyed that part, too. And we also interviewed a lot of my friends. So, I'm sure that didn't hurt.
But, yeah, I've enjoyed a lot of the stuff we've done this year. I'm looking forward to some of our ideas for next year. And I'm also looking forward to giving ourselves more permission to, if you go through another long bat of chronic fatigue, just saying, let's just re-release episodes instead of feeling like we constantly have to record, you know? Like, just really allowing ourselves to have some breaks, and some balance, and some boundaries around expectations.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I It's interesting. I was a guest on Neurodivergent Women podcast. And first of all, I loved the conversation I had with Michelle and Monique. But after we're done recording, one thing they talked about is how they intentionally record seasons. And they talked about how the podcast interest industry is very male-dominant, and part of that is like, "Go, go, go." Like, every week release. And that they intentionally released it, like, kind of cyclically of, and they tapped… They said it so much better than I'm saying it, but like, kind of feminine energy is cyclical, often. And so, there was a very thoughtful, intentionalness to which they plan out their seasons. And I really gravitated toward that.
And I know it's something we've talked about off air, but like, we both have been, like, flying by the seat of our pants energy with this podcast, in a sense of like, "Okay, let's hop on. Let's figure out what we're talking about. Let's…" And both of us want to be more intentional with this podcast, especially, as it's grown, and like the responsibility we feel to make it a more cohesive experience for folks. So, that is something that I do look forward to is kind of, yeah, having more intention in our podcast.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. I think that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think I would have said, I would have had like, and did have some resistance to that idea last year that you brought up to me, and maybe it is the male-dominated energy of, like, "Go, go, go."
I don't think I want that anymore. I don't think I can do it anymore. I just don't have the energy or the capacity to add things anymore in, like, a less than intentional way. So, I think the way that we are, like, curating series, and thinking about guests, and really trying hard to figure out how to make a more cohesive experience because for the last two years, we've just hopped on Zoom and we've just talked, which I think people do actually appreciate a lot of the time. But, like, we're almost 90 episodes in. So, like, eventually, we've got to have significantly more thoughtfulness and intentionality in order to create any sort of longevity in this situation. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And that is interesting, like, how to keep the intentionality and the authenticity. Because I think part of what people have liked about the podcast is the authenticity of like, yeah, we hop on, and we have a conversation, and we're vulnerable. And so, how do you balance the bringing in intentionality and thoughtfulness while also keeping the authenticity?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, exactly, spot on. So, we'll see. We'll see what we're talking about in a year from now. If anything-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Who knows?
MEGAN NEFF: Right. I mean, gosh, so morbid. My first thought is, like, if we're both alive a year from now, but that's just like always my thought of like-
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, me too.
MEGAN NEFF: …I don't assume continual existence. So, I hope we're both here a year from now and talking about something.
PATRICK CASALE: We're setting an intention right now. We're going to set the intention that when we meet-
MEGAN NEFF: We'll both exist.
PATRICK CASALE: …next week, we are not going to, like, or fall into that pattern of we've already talked about a disliking or hating one another, and being like, "I just don't think we want to do this anymore." And we're going to also set the intention that we're going to exist going to exist a year from now. Super fun way to close this up with. Thank you, Megan. [CROSSTALK 00:43:56]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you're always welcome for the like…
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:56] too, so same boat.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, I'm always here for the, like, reminders of our mortality.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. One thing I didn't mention, and I don't want to prolong this episode at all, but one thing that I am looking forward to, and I'm also unbelievably nervous about is I'm doing a TEDx talk next month. And [CROSSTALK 00:44:22]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's huge.
PATRICK CASALE: …months ago, six months ago, and here we are.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, are you ready?
PATRICK CASALE: No. Do you think [CROSSTALK 00:44:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, are you going to do the thing where you don't prep?
PATRICK CASALE: No, I have to. I mean, this is-
MEGAN NEFF: Because I was like, this is a TEDx talk. Like, you have to have it. It's got to be 15 minutes.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I know. It's going to really challenge me in so many ways. And also, like, standing in the red dot the entire time, and not like…
MEGAN NEFF: I've seen people walk around, you can walk around, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Maybe I'll push that envelope and not…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I definitely have seen people walk around.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I've been really anxious about that piece of like, standing in one spot for 15 minutes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. No, you should. You should walk around.
PATRICK CASALE: And scripting. And yeah, all the things.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, that's not how you talk. So, how are you even prepping for it?
PATRICK CASALE: Writing out my outline. I have a speaker coach for the event who we've met a couple of times, and he kind of gives feedback. And then, I go back to my outline and get stressed out by it, and then, I shut my computer off, and yeah, it's been great.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that sounds lovely. It sounds really fun.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:45:28] 15 minutes, right? I'll be over like that. And, you know, I'm definitely going to bring some fidget toys on stage. And I think I'm going to really try to make it as an affirming and accommodating of an experience as I possibly can.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's really awesome and amazing you're doing that. And I'm sure the prep is very exciting.
PATRICK CASALE: It's not my favorite, but I feel like that process is right up your alley. So…
MEGAN NEFF: The talk prep?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I don't know the speaking engagement that I have mentioned a few times where I got COVID in 2020, it wasn't an official TED event, but the way they were structuring keynotes was TED-like structures. And I took it very literally because it was like 15 minutes. So, I don't even want to tell you how many hours I spent prepping it. I started a year before. I went through so many revisions. And then, I was cutting, like, individual words to get to the 15 minutes. And then, I would like go on long walks, and listen to the talk on repeat to memorize it. Yeah, it was so many hours of prep. I do not envy you when I think back about-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:46:47] maybe I should be more stressed out. Okay, back to the drawing board.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, like, you have a very different process than me, though, around speaking. Like, that's been, you know, I wouldn't do well with impromptu speaking. It would be a hot mess. And if I don't have complete confidence that this speech is memorized in my body, then I am prone to, like, go blank when I'm up front. So, I just have a very different process than you.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: But I do recommend, like, that would be my tip for anyone doing a like, especially, TEDx talk, is recording yourself, and then listening to it back, partly, for memorization, but also, just like the listening to it back is when I did a lot of the revisions. And I could do that while I'd go for walks and I'd listen. And that was really helpful.
PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate that. I'm actually going to do that, so that's great advice. Thank you for that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Other thoughts, reflections, 2025, any things at all right now?
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think so. I feel like we've kind of explored a bit. Anything coming up for you?
PATRICK CASALE: No, I feel good about it. And yeah, while to think, again, two years of this, this will be episode 89. So, we're almost at 90, almost at 100 episodes. I mean, it's cool. It's been a cool experience. And I'm grateful to get to do it with you. And I'm just fascinated and excited to see who we have on, and what kind of topics we cover, and what we kind of talk about next year when we meet and reflect back on what this year has brought to us.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's hard to imagine. And that is something that struck me, was listening to our episode from a year ago I was like, "Whoa." I didn't think much had changed in a year. But looking back, was like, "Whoa, so much has changed."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And so, it's interesting to think, yeah, the 2026 version of us, if we're still alive, like I bet a lot will have changed for both of us, and for our listeners. For listeners who, like, listened a year ago and are listening now. Like, if they look back on the last year, I bet a lot has changed.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. One thing that just came to my mind is in the episode last year I said I want to be moving more, play soccer more, and figure out what pickleball is.
Did play soccer more, did burst my calf muscle like a water balloon, but did find out what pickleball was and play it pretty consistently with my friend, Jen, who is an avid listener and starts every single Friday of hers off by turning our episodes on right at 8:00 AM. And if she doesn't or the episode does not air on time, I get a text message of where is my podcast and what the hell is happening? So, just want to shout you out, Jen. And pickleball is actually really fun, Megan, and you did mention that. So, glad to have discovered that too.
MEGAN NEFF: I was going to ask. I forgot to ask. I was going to ask if you figured out pickleball-
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, it's a lot of fun.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm glad that you sorted that out, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:50:00] by old ladies all the time. Like, they kick my ass. And, yeah, it's a lot of fun.
MEGAN NEFF: And risk of rupturing calf muscles is probably a lot lower.
PATRICK CASALE: That's true. That is true. So, live and learn. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening. And we hope you had a happy, healthy, safe new year. And do these reflection exercises because I do think zooming out is super helpful, especially, to just give some newfound perspective and appreciation.
And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.
