Episode 87: Psychoanalysis (Part 2): ADHD Ways to Focus Without Force [featuring Dr. Kourosh Dini]

Show Notes

For ADHDers who feel overwhelmed by the challenges of maintaining focus and managing anxiety around a flood of to-dos and expectations, finding effective strategies can make all the difference.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, along with Dr. Kourosh Dini, a clinical psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, musician, and creator of Waves of Focus, discuss how creative minds, including ADHDers, can harmonize play and productivity without succumbing to stress or societal pressures.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Discover practical strategies to navigate anxiety and enhance focus: Find out how Dr. Dini's "Waves of Focus" framework can provide actionable techniques to improve your concentration and manage anxiety, tailored specifically for neurodivergent individuals.
2. Deep dive into the fascinating links between creativity, agency, and play: Understand how playful exploration can be a powerful tool in forming your identity and maintaining mental health.
3. Learn about innovative methods to foster a genuine sense of agency: Gain insights into 3 simple practices that can transform your relationship with your tasks and decisions, bolstering your executive function and autonomy.

As you reflect on this episode, think about how you can integrate more play into your daily routines and find your internal rhythm. Consider ways to nurture your sense of agency and make mindful choices that align with your true self.

More about Dr. Kourosh Dini:

As a clinical psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and musician, Kourosh has both experienced and seen the great difficulties creatives as well as those with ADHD or anxiety can have. He created the Waves of Focus, a framework that has fundamentally changed how many of his students and clients engage their work and play.

Academics include Northwestern University as a part of the Integrated Science Program with a focus in the neurosciences. His medical degree and residency in adult psychiatry were obtained through the University of Illinois at Chicago.

He pursued further studies in child and adolescent psychiatry at the University of Chicago. Kourosh also practices psychoanalysis having graduated from the Institute for Psychoanalysis, and maintains a private practice in Chicago involving therapy, meditation, and medication management.

Author of Creating Flow with OmniFocus, Taking Smart Notes with DEVONthink, and Workflow Mastery.

• Sign up for the Weekly Wind Down newsletter for a free PDF, "Your First Step to Breaking Free from Force-Based Work” at https://wavesoffocus.com/Your-First-Step-to-Breaking-Free-from-Force-Based%20Work.
• Get a 2 Weeks/$20 trial subscription to the Waves of Focus  membership: https://wavesoffocus.circle.so/checkout/waves-of-focus-dollar20-trial-and-subscription
• Websites: kouroshdini.com and kouroshdinimd.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kouroshdinimd 

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have a really great guest who is a clinical psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and musician, who has experience in seeing the great difficulties creatives, as well as those who are ADHD, or anxious can have. And has created the Waves of Focus, a framework which has fundamentally changed how many of their students and clients engage with their work and play, Dr. Kourosh Dini.

And we are really excited to have you on here today. And excited to have this series that we're doing on kind of a psychoanalytic framework, too.

MEGAN NEFF: Are you excited about it, Patrick?

PATRICK CASALE: No, that was all fake. That was just reading off the script.

MEGAN NEFF: You are appeasing me by allowing us to do episodes on psychoanalysis.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, I am. I'm definitely interested. I read your bio today. I really didn't know what we were talking about, which is basically my preparation process in general. I come, and I look right beforehand and try to absorb. And I know your approach to playfulness, and focus, and ADHD is really unique. And I'm excited to hear that, honestly. Let's just be honest, it's election day today, I live in Asheville, where Hurricane Helene just hit. I'm not really existing, I'm just here. So, excited to hear the conversation you two are about to have.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, thank you for being here. And, hopefully, I think there'll be ways that anchor you in.

But yeah, so Dr. Dini and I were talking yesterday about this idea that I shared that, I think, of a mentor once shared that psychoanalysis is a way of being. And I really loved that idea. And I know that kind of connected with you, too, I think, Dr. Dini, is that right? The idea of psychoanalysis as a way of being?

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, I would say so. You know, I hadn't heard that phrase until you sent that to me. And as you said, I was like, "Oh, yeah, that sounds about right." You know, if you talk to any two analysts, I think, you'd probably get different definitions of what psychoanalysis is.

MEGAN NEFF: Sure.

KOUROSH DINI: And which I think speaks to the evolution of it, to the length of it. It's been around for quite some time. And when a lot of times people think of psychoanalysis, they often go to around 1915 and forget that, you know, things have evolved.

And so, I like that sense of way of being because it's something that has gone through many years of thinkers, and writers, and through many different political aspects, and many social aspects, and different ways of looking at things, where it's gotten into trouble, where it's gotten into success and all that, and kind of incorporated it all into this sort of central way of existence.

I tend to define it myself as a practice of clearing and supporting paths for the development of agency, of play, and the relationship together. Again, you ask another analyst who will say, "Well, let me think about that one."

MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. Yes, I imagine every analyst likes to have their own definition. And also, I think it would really depend on the wave, again, not that we're going to do a history of psychoanalysis, but there's different waves of analysis. And the experience I've had, and I haven't done in-depth training, but the training I have done has been in relational psychoanalysis, which is the third wave, which is really about kind of the encounter between two people. But then, you're going to have some first wave, which is much more of that traditional kind of Freudian blank slate I'm interpreting you. So, yes, there's a lot of different ways that this theory shows up.

I am curious, and then, I really want to get to, like, play and agency. But like, what is your training in psychoanalysis? Like, what, like, object relations, relational…

KOUROSH DINI: So, I studied the mix. You know, whether it's been about object, I was big fan of Winnicott, for example, which got into play.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes, which is how you and I connected.

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: You know, the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute where I trained after my fellowship, you know, we got into a cohort, for example, which was a lot about self and narcissistic development in, like, the healthy sense, right? Or not. But, you know, there's also just straight up, here's Freud, this is what Freud was into, and what he was thinking.

And then, more recently what we've been calling neuropsychoanalysis, and where the transition from maybe thinking of, you know, Freud had thought of, "Oh, there's like, two things. There's libido and there's aggression."

And then, now we're like, no, maybe there's about seven, which involves care, and play, and seeking, and anxiety. And so, just tracing like, oh, yeah, there are actually biological things that are going on that say that these emotions are kind of core. And how do we deal with those?

Anyway, so there's no particular something that I subscribe to that… Even the idea of subscribing to one single something is itself, I think, antiquating at this point. It's more, let's learn everything we can.

MEGAN NEFF: I love that. And I think this is something why I am drawn to you and your work, is that you are playful in your work. And I've noticed that in the way that you incorporate music, in the way you even write about some of these things. You practice what you speak about, in the sense that you're very playful in how you approach your work. Yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: I appreciate that. It is the soul of it. I mean, if we go back to me as a kid, I've described it as suffering from an overabundance of creativity, which I think is that sense of play, you know? Just too many thoughts, too many somethings, you know? And it's still there.

And the difference is, at this point, I think I've learned how to orchestrate it and find the rhythms between them. Maybe that's been informed through the practice of piano and such, but amongst everything else that I've been, you know, the mindfulness, or the studies. But that core of play has always been there, and I've needed to do something with it because, I think, like any powerful tool, the more power it has, the more caution and practice it requires.

MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely.

KOUROSH DINI: And so, that's play in itself. It has that. It's a fire, you know? It's like, do you use it to warm the home or is it going to burn down the house? You know? If you know what to do with it, you can do a lot of good things.

MEGAN NEFF: I like that way of thinking about it. It's kind of a neutral force. Well, it's not a neutral force, but like, the frame or the form that it takes has a lot of power if it's constructive or destructive, yeah.

I like what you said about creativity. This is a little bit of an association. But Dr. Jonathan Dalton, who does a lot with anxiety in children, one thing that I've heard him say before is the flip side of creativity is anxiety or that creativity and anxiety share some things in common because they both ask what if?

And so, something he often says, if you have a bright, creative child, you're going to have an anxious child or child with anxiety. And I know you work a lot with anxiety. And so, that's interesting even in hearing you talk about suffering from the abundance of creativity. Like, a creative mind also is one that can suffer from a lot of anxiety because it also asks a lot of those what if questions?

KOUROSH DINI: I hadn't actually drawn that. So, Dalton is the name?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, Dr. Jonathan Dalton. He does a lot with school avoidance and anxiety for children.

KOUROSH DINI: I think it's a great connection. Yeah, I usually say, I would usually think of the opposite of play as depression, opposite of depression is play. I mean, anxiety and depression, they're cousins. I mean, they're always kind of swimming next to each other, you know? And so, that totally fits.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to kind of back up the conversation a little bit. First, I want to give context for, like, how you and I met. So, I think it's kind of strange and funny. I had started The Learning Nook, the community I run about a year ago. So, I joined a community for community creators. And I get anxious going on, like, calls to people I don't know. So, I, like, hopped on a call in this community. And I was so shocked. And I think the person who was at that community was like, "Oh, I think you and Dr. Dini should connect."

And, like, on that call, you started talking about Winnicott and play, which that's been, like, I wrote a paper about transitional space but, like, ages ago. But I loved Winnicott, I love the concept of play.

And I was like, "This is so weird. I'm in a, like, space of community creators, and there's a psychoanalyst here talking about Winnicott." So, that is the backstory of how we connected. And I just think that's a kind of fun, random connection point. But I was not expecting that.

KOUROSH DINI: Neither was I. No, totally. That was pretty neat. Like, really cool, all right. And, yeah, no, I started to dive into the depth of how much you are well-read and well-written in all of the things that you put together. Anyway, I was impressed as well. I'll leave it at that.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, so okay, let's talk a little bit about the theory of play because it's something that I often talk about. So, play, and please correct me because you know Winnicott way better than I do. But my sense is that Winnicott really felt like play for children was a place of becoming. It's where they learn differentiation. So, like, it's where they learn, like, what is me and what is not me? You know, he connects the idea of play to culture, and culture building. Like, play, it's playful, but it's also really serious work.

And something I talk a lot about is, I have this hunch that for a lot of neurodivergent folks, ADHDers, and autistic folks play, we often experience a lot of shame around how we play. Either for the autistic child it's, you know, "You should come play with the kids. You shouldn't play alone. Like, you should be doing the puzzle, not stacking the pieces and like, color arrangements." Or for ADHDers, "Your play is too much, you've got to tone it down."

So, these are some of the things I think about. And I'm curious and like, how does that affect our identity development if play is this crucible where we become people, and we know who we are. I guess I'm just curious your thoughts on that. And also, feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding Winnicott there.

KOUROSH DINI: I just really appreciate the way you phrased that question and the way you put that together. So, if we look at play, it's hard to define in a single sentence or so, you know? But if we look at it as this depth and breadth of connection between self and world, where we are exploring and in some creative sense discovering there is a connection with that unconscious self that part of ourselves that we are still learning about and how that part of us connects with the world. And it's not always conscious that we are playing even. It's a process of mastery.

So, the way I'll describe it between an adult and a child, child is looking at those blocks, and putting them, and stacking them, and the colors or the arrangements or whatever. They're serious. They are serious in how they're approaching it. Usually, I think there's that connotation of, like a silliness or something that comes with play, which might be there as well, but it's not necessary for it. It's maybe a version of it.

For the adult, it's being that crafts person. It's where like you are excelling, and developing, you're finding questions, and those questions are genuine questions, questions that connect deep within ourselves, that like, "Oh, I don't understand that, but this is what I do understand." And kind of, there's this tendril of growth that feels genuine and authentic.

So, to your point of whether it's ADHD or autism, or you know, that too-muchness, for example, whatever that looks like, it can easily touch off feelings of shame because it's like, "Hey, you don't belong. You go over in that corner because you're causing this trouble." Or, "You know what? Play differently."

Now, how do you play differently? Because play is genuine, by definition I'm proposing here, or that Winnicott is proposing, that it is a deep connection within one's genuine self. You can't tell somebody how to play. You can say, this might be an objective, this is where to go. Here's some suggestions. But ultimately, if it's not in that place, it only creates that false self, that hollow shell that…

MEGAN NEFF: So, when our play gets sorted we get disconnected from ourself?

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I think I want to, like, diverge a little bit because I want to make sure and have time to talk about agency because that's the other thing that I've heard you talk about, specifically, with ADHD. I know you use the language of wandering minds a lot. And I just think this is such an important idea because I think both connected, partly, probably to play disruption, but also, just because of feedback we've gotten throughout our life, because of executive functioning struggles, I think a lot of us struggle to have a sense of agency. And this is something I know that you talk about. Like, your approach to ADHD feels very different. Well, perhaps that would be a helpful place to start is talking about agency, and then, talking about force-based approaches versus you have an alternative approach to ADHD.

KOUROSH DINI: Sure. So, all right, starting with the definition, what is agency, right? I would define it as a skill and ability to decide non-reactively. That means that you can, so I'll say it, again, skill and ability to decide non-reactively. And sometimes, I'll add on there, maybe begin an action which helps solidify the decision.

Why is this so important? It's because that's what we create our worlds with. It's what we decide. It's how we function. It is in some circles of thought, the reason for consciousness is to make decisions. And what we do is we examine the emotions, and the thoughts, and the sensations, and the beliefs, and whatever it is that's affecting our consciousness, affecting our decisions, affecting our mind. And the more we can, you know, look at those things and see the options as they are, and then we are then heightened in that sense of decision. Or, if you want to use free will, our free will is more. It's not an on/off thing. It's not like we do or don't. It's not free will versus determinism. It's like when we are in that state of I can see what's affecting me, and I can make this decision that's where you're in that heightened state of agency.

So, when you do that, you can now create the things that would best benefit you. You can have your tools at your disposal. You can clearly decide this would help me here, this will help me there. I've got my computer here. I'm closing out those things. And now you get to play. Now you get to willingly abandon that sense of agency, perhaps for a moment, to just be in flow and go.

And you know, some people call it hyper-focus, if you want to, but when you do that, let's call it responsibly, where you feel like this is my exit ramp, this is how I might deal with interruptions. Now, it's no longer defensive, now it's no longer frenetic, now it's no longer, you know, I'm going to keep doing this until I crash and be exhausted. It's more at your command. So, that's where that sense of agency in place start to work together.

MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. So, this is an idea I've been exploring in my newsletters recently and in my just personal life. So, when I did a autism test, or like, one of the tests, there's one quiz that looks at, like, how high different autistic traits are. And my highest autistic trait was, like, interest. So, I spent a lot of time in a kind of hyper-focused, monotropic, like, state. And thinking about how I've been using it very defensively because when I come out of that, that's when I really feel the pings and the pongs of the world. And, frankly, I feel more ADHD when I come out of it. And it's really overwhelming.

So, one thing I've been practicing recently is more proactively entering deep, focused, monotropic states versus defensively doing it. So, it's really interesting how you just talked about agency.

And part of agency is setting up when we can enter those playful, hyper-focused states, proactively versus defensively. And yeah, that's been something I've been thinking a lot in my life because I can see how that defensive mode causes me to put my life on pause. It, I think, contributes to burnout. And so, this thing that gives me a lot of pleasure and delight, I also see how kind of the shadow side of it, how it's been unhelpful in some ways as well.

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, so then you don't have to deal with it in that shadowed, chaotic flow. You can like, "Oh, this is how you guide it." And you practice that you know throughout life, what helps.

You know, you mentioned the monotropic mindset, I've looked at it as, all right, so here's the thing, throughout my life, I have this sort of weird something with my eyes. One is barely any prescription, the other one is quite thick. So, I have one eye being very myopic.

So, what happens is, when I look at things, this side looks fine. This side, I have to look at things very close, and it's expanded and in great detail. And everything outside of the small little sphere is blurry. And the further out, the blurrier it gets.

So, I've been calling this thing a wandering mind, this idea, as like a myopic consciousness, that's what I think. So, when I came across this word monotropic I was, "Oh, I think that's it." You know? It's this idea that what's in front of you is like this, you know, big. You know, you could see it. It's magnified. You can get into the details. But beyond it, the periphery, what might be called the not now, if you will, is blurry, it's hard to see. And what do you do with that? And then, how do you manage this world? You know?

So, what happens is that when you're in something and you've got interest flowing, or any other big emotion, play, care, lust, anything that's big, we can lock onto that, and, "Hey, I'm there. I see this thing." Agency, deadlines, that gets us there. But as soon as it's not, you know, everything's just… Because it's like we're just looking here, and everything's just running past very quickly. And so, trying to learn how to catch the waves that are moving past us in a way that still works with us is kind of the name of the game. And that's the work of agency. That's what we're trying to use agency for.

MEGAN NEFF: One thing I've heard you say before is that a lot of the approaches to ADHD, like the ADHD hacks, actually, while they might help us to maybe get the paper in or do the thing, they actually chip away our agency. Can you say a little bit more about kind of how you see that?

KOUROSH DINI: Whenever we feel that we have to force ourselves to do something, either through waiting for that agency to build, or through shaming ourselves, or for asking others, or demanding others, or whatever, to make us do something, whatever, make us do something, we are actively telling ourselves we cannot do things from our own sense of will. We cannot do something. We are not only trying to make it happen, but in the act of doing it we're telling ourselves, you can't do it. You can't do it by yourself.

And every time you do that, I think that sense of agency gets injured. Again, agency being our ability to decide and begin an action non-reactively. So, here, normally, we're trying to leverage that reaction. You know, saying let's make myself do it. And now I'm saying, no, no, can you try to do this without any of those things?

So, that's, you know, so much I think, of the ramifications of that, that myopic mindset, I think, you know, because we forget things, because we lose things, because of all the troubles that we get into and everybody telling us, even caring people, you have to get that thing done. We stumble into, "Oh, this thing worked." And it happened to be a thing that was, you know, an external factor.

You know, the trouble is multiple deadlines don't line up with each other, you know, other people don't line up, and it's exhausting. You know, you get, like, the sense of, I better do all of this now because I won't be able to come back to it, for example, you know, gets people to work until four in the morning and then crash. And then, the next day, I can't do anything because that sense of agency, once again, injured as it is, is like, I don't want to. That's the cry of the injured sense of self, sense of agency. So, I think that answers it.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, what you just said really resonates with me. Like, that, I need to do it all now, or I'll forget, or you know, I'm not going to have the ability to come back to this later, or it's going to fall through the cracks. And you do establish and create all these internal-like accommodations, or even external accommodations, and figure out "the hacks" on how to make all of this stuff flow in a way that is not complete and utter chaos all the time.

So, if we're developing the sense of agency, and we're strengthening it, what does that look like for people who are listening, who are like, I need all the hacks. Like, those hacks really get me through the day?

KOUROSH DINI: Totally. So, there's a few different things that one can do. Like, I look at three major kind of core tools that create the seed of what I would call the waves of focus methods. One of which, actually, Megan on our on your site, we actually created that idea of The Visit. The Visit being this, that you choose something, work, play, whatever it is, you put the thing in front of you, or you go to it, and you preferably with distraction set aside, and you stay there for the length of a single deep breath. That's it. You don't have to do any of it. You don't have to do a thing, not at all. You want to nudge it forward, go forward. You want to nudge it forward again, go ahead. Two beats make a rhythm. You tend to be in a new place now. And now, it's like, do I want to stop or not?

And it seems like it's a silly thing, but the reason why it's not is that there are two binds that show up in that. One is to show up to the thing, and the second is to stay for the single deep breath. Those two binds. Beyond those two binds, you have supported the sense of agency. You have told yourself, you get to decide whatever you want to do, all right? As opposed to stay there for five minutes. Even though that can work for some people, if that works for you, hey, go, great. I'm not going to tell you don't do it.

But when you force yourself, even if you are forcing yourself to stay for five minutes, there's a part of you that says, "No, I don't want to." And so, this minimizes the forcing into those two binds that I described. So, that's one component. You try that out, I think that makes a big difference.

Second is what I call anchoring. And the very brief version of it is, actually, Megan, after your great description of, like, after you're out of that state, you know, of being in something, that's when it's like, "Oh my God, there's like, a zillion things." You know? Or after a session with a client, you know, like, come back to my desk, I'm like, "What do I?" You know? All that.

I call it anchoring. It might also be called like a moment's menu, is another way of phrasing this. And what you do is scrap a piece of paper. Write down your options for now. Essentially, what you're doing is you're capturing working memory. You're not brainstorming. You're not writing everything that comes to mind and just these are all the things that I could do. It's a mindful practice of, like, what is on my mind? It's, well, I got to write my note, I got to call that person back, I got to take a leak, I got to take the dog out. And, oh, yeah, I wanted to read that book. Okay, those are kind of what's on my mind. And you write them all down.

What that does then is that it relieves working memory. You know, the working memory is already working hard enough. And what happens usually, because it's strained, you usually just choose one and run with it to relieve that sense of, oh, if I don't do this, I'll forget, but oh, what about the other? Just go, you know, this relieves that.

MEGAN NEFF: I just want to interject because that's exactly what I do is I get out of hyper focus, and then I'm like, "Okay, there's seven things that my brain is wanting to do." And I'm so overwhelmed that I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to pick that one and go back." I say go back under because I feel like I'm underwater when I'm in monotropic flow in a really, like, restorative place. So, it's like, I'm brought back to the surface, grab one, go back under. But I'm not prioritizing. And so, then it's like, "Oh my goodness, I've just spent eight hours on this thing, but there's all these things."

So, yeah, I really love that idea. It's like you're kind of taking an inventory. Like, so for me, with my metaphor, when I pop up above the water, it would be, let me mindfully identify, okay, here's the five things my brain is kind of itching at.

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, that's so good. So, you write down those five things, you circle one of them, and you pay the visit to that one. So, the visit that I just described, you can show up, do little, do none, do whatever.

As soon as you want to step away, cross it off, update that thing that you'd written on, or make a new one. And then, importantly, toss it. Get rid of it. You know, if there's something important on it, put it somewhere else, but it's no longer representative of the now when you keep it. So, the idea of this thing is that it's supposed to represent your working memory now. I find that pen and paper is much better than computer for this. It's just a lot more fun and also…

MEGAN NEFF: Like, more cathartic or something, yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: And it doesn't distract you in a thousand different ways. And so, that's the second.

The third is what I call a guide. And the guide is about connecting with the not now. You know, a today list could be considered something like that. But I can talk about it quite a bit and how to structure and build and all that, but the simplest idea of it and the seed that can start it, and then you can kind of go on your own and kind of figure it out is choose a thing, work, play, whatever it is to visit every day, once a day, whenever you do, however you want to remind yourself. Like, it's hard, particularly, for a wandering mind, ADHD, and otherwise, to say, "Okay, I'm going to do that every day." But the idea is, again, a visit every day. You don't have to do it. You just have to show up to it, be there for that single deep breath.

And you can always change it. You don't have to keep doing that same thing every day. But the preferable point to changing it is after you've paid a visit, right when you're done, in other words. So, what happens, let's say you're trying to study a language, you show up to the thing, you read it, and you put it away, and then somewhere later on that is, "Forget it." And the next day, you're like, "Forget it." Then you're like, "Okay, this whole thing fell apart."

Okay, let's contrast it with this other way. You do it one day, you the next day, you're like, "I really don't want to do this, but I'll show up. I'll show up." All right, fine. I've shown up. Do I want to nudge it forward or not? Maybe, maybe not. No, I'm not going to do it. Okay. Do I want to continue this now? No, I'd rather do something else now. Okay, you go ahead and do something else. So, you once again support that sense of agency in that process. So, instead of, "Oh, I have these thousands of projects that I'm no longer following because I just lost the thread on them." No, you've decided clearly, either for or against, and what to do about it. And those are two very…

So, that gets rid of that part of like, "Oh, I can never follow something through unless I just force and force myself." No, you get to decide. But if you do it at the end [CROSSTALK 00:34:35]-

MEGAN NEFF: You get to decide when to be done. Like, you get to decide, because I know that can be a common ADHD thing, as well, is like, shame for all these hobbies we started and then left, but you're changing the relationship too, of like, no, I decided that that had run its course and that I wanted to use my time differently.

Yeah, I really like the shift from this being built like… Because those things often stack up on our, like, resume of shame, of these are all the things that I quit, or all the things I didn't finish, and you're really flipping it to, no. That's a choice I made from a place of agency of how I want to spend my time.

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, and if you do it at the end of the visit, that's where that comes.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I think the helpful thing, too, if we go back to like, step two, right, is that list to support your working memory, which really supports your executive functioning, when you do, you know, that guide, and you check in on that thing, and decide whether or not I want to pursue this or I don't want to pursue this today, I feel like it gives you a lot more, like you said, control over which direction we take and why we do go down that path. And I think the autonomy in the agency is unbelievably important.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: Jumping back to that anchoring idea for a second, one example I'll give is, you know how there's these video cameras that stabilize the view? You know, like, you have this, you know, and then, like, you move around. The way that works is that it, at least this way I understand it works, it records a larger field than it needs, and therefore it can, like, use, you know, what's extra, what's outside of it to kind of stabilize itself.

And the same thing happens when we're using this anchoring you. You list out what you're holding in peripheral memory. Like, this is what I'm holding on to. And somehow that helps you stabilize this is where I want my mind to be. Just another metaphor.

MEGAN NEFF: And again, it's a choosing this is where I want my mind to be versus a this is where my mind is pulled or I'm defensively diving into something as distraction. Yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: The other language you use I really like that I've started using similar language recently, you talk about, do I want to nudge it forward? Throughout much of my life, I've had this mindset, again, there's some, all, or nothingness to it, of like, I need to finish this project before I can do this thing. And I'll get stuck in that. So, like, if I'm giving a talk, I tend to put a lot of time into prep. And I'll be spending, like, ridiculous hours a day doing that, and I'll be like, "Well, I can't work out, or I can't clean my room until this talk is all prepped."

And so, I would get stuck. And that's where I'd get the sense of like, I feel like I'm putting my life on pause because I'm always going from project to project. I can't move on with my life till it's done.

So, I've started doing a needle list where it's like, what project this week am I going to push forward? But so, I really like that idea of shifting it from I need to get this thing done to do I want to, like, push the needle forward on this project? Do I want to nudge it forward? Yes, cool. No, cool.

KOUROSH DINI: I like that phrase, needle list. I had never heard that one. I like that. So, it's like you're pushing the needle forward on it.

MEGAN NEFF: Pushing the needle forward, yeah. So, like, every week I will often have a needle list of like these are a couple projects I want to push the needle forward. Like, a few months ago, it would be, I want to get this… Like, maybe it's I want to get this workbook done this week. But then I would get into kind of that more forceful, because it's like, I have to get it done this week versus I want to push the needle forward on this course I'm building, or this workbook I'm working on.

And I think it has cultivated more agency. But it's also just, like, I think my stress response is lower, and then if I do make a lot of progress on it, I'm like, that's really cool. I didn't know I'd get to finish it this week, but I did.

KOUROSH DINI: And with that lower sense of anxiety and stress, that playful self gets to come out. That's where, you know, in the middle of while driving or whatever, "What if I did that?" You know? And then, you write that down, it's like, waiting for you the next visit. Like, "Oh, yeah, I'll try that out."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, play and agency are, like, connected in that sense of, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: I tend to think of, if I were to personify them, agency as parent and play as child, that you want them to be kind of in the sort of a good, mutually-attuned sort of place. You know, the parent creates the playground, which is also the work ground. You want to make it so that play fuels the work, you want the plan the work to kind of, that's how I'm defining success, actually, where work being defined as that which you do that supports you, whether that's financially, or spiritually, or interpersonally, or however you want to describe that sense. And that playful, caring, doesn't have to be all playbook, play, caring, those positive senses of self, that these two are interlinked, they're together. And the more you can find that connection or harmony between them, you win.

MEGAN NEFF: I think that's really why I've been drawn to your work and your writing because there is a lot out there about how to, like, manage, you know, ADHD, or how to like work with these things. But I really like how you're getting at kind of core identity themes of, like, beyond, how do we support ourselves also like, how are we forming as people? How is our agency being built or being thwarted? How are we living expansively? Yeah, I really appreciate how you interweave these things together. Yeah, I just think it's a gentle approach to ADHD. And I think that's not something I've seen a whole lot. So, yeah.

KOUROSH DINI: I think it stems from the psychoanalytic. I remember one analyst that told me his own definition is like, if you can handle shame you can function as an analyst. And that importance of paying attention to shame… Because I've never seen anybody win an argument with an emotion. You can't just say, "Don't feel ashamed." You know that doesn't do anything other than slap them in the face really, it doesn't work.

But that winds up happening, it's like a meta message or a hidden message in a lot of the things that wind up being these force-based methods. Like, do this even though you don't feel good about it. You know that doesn't work. But in the supportive agency, you're paying attention to, like, where are my emotions now? And how can I sit with those?

So, when you pay, all right, let me connect this here, when you're making a visit, for example, and you're sitting in front of that thing that feels awful, whatever that thing is, you know, and you're like, "Oh, why couldn't I have done this yesterday? Why couldn't I have, you know, started practicing the piano when I was 12? Why couldn't I have…" Whatever it is, you know the regrets and the shame and the negative things, you are starting to actively be with those feelings, which you can even look at it in mindful approach it. When you do that, you start to realize that they are not the soul feeling. They are not the only emotion. They're often stinking up the place, you know, it's really hurting often. But it does start showing you where it can function, sometimes even as soil to have the growth of other things coming from it. I don't know, there's probably a better metaphor, but yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: I believe I've seen some research that looks at how emotional avoidance as a way to manage difficult emotions is more common for both ADHDers and autistic people, which I think makes sense because we tend to have big emotions.

And so, again, I like the idea of The Visit where it's I'm going to be with these emotions for a whole breath. It's not I have to sit and be with it for forever, but I'm going to practice being with this thing, being with myself, being with my emotions for one breath. And then, I can, leave. Yeah, yeah.

Well, lots of rich thoughts to chew on here. And I know that these are things that you teach in your community. And that you have some books on focus and other topics. But where can our audience, where can they find you, if they're drawn to these ideas, and they want more of a deep dive? Where can they find you and your work?

KOUROSH DINI: Sure, sure. First, thank you so much for having me here and all of this, this has been this great So, Megan and Patrick, thank you.

Yeah. So, the idea, yeah, it's about that transitioning from that force to that internal rhythm. And so, there's two ways, all right, I'm answering your question. One is, if you're interested in just diving right in, I've got this course called Waves of Focus and it's at wavesoffocus.com. And it's a membership. In the show notes, there'll be a link that you get the beginning two weeks for $20. And then, you know, if you don't, quit before the end of the two weeks, you won't be charged the full fee. And [CROSSTALK 00:44:27]-

MEGAN NEFF: You mean people can, like, do a visit to your community?

KOUROSH DINI: Yeah, totally.

MEGAN NEFF: You've, like, structured it. I like that.

KOUROSH DINI: That's exactly it. Yeah, no, actually, the very first lessons are about visiting just the course itself, and you don't have to do a thing.

And anyway. The second thing is my newsletter, if you don't want to dive into the course. My newsletter is, a lot of people like it a lot. And I have a lot of fun with it.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that's what I was saying earlier about your playful work. You're one of the few newsletters that I consistently read. I think it comes out on Fridays. And it's very playful, it's very reflective. It puts me in a reflective state, which I like. It's got good content to marinate in. So, yeah, yeah, your newsletter is a good resource.

KOUROSH DINI: I'm so glad you think so. Thank you. Yeah, it's called The Weekly Wind Down. I'll put a link in there as well. I'll put it with, there's a free PDF called Your First Step to Breaking Free from Force-Based Work, which basically goes over The Visit and how to how to use that. But the newsletter itself is reflective. It's kind of where my mind is in terms of, like, developing play, agency, mastery, and figuring out the meaningful things to ourselves and how to get there.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Well, we'll have all those links in the show notes.

KOUROSH DINI: Thanks again so much for having me. This is awesome.

MEGAN NEFF: Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and for, yeah, sharing these ideas with us.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, really great conversation. And we'll have all that information in the show notes so you have easy access to everything Dr. Dini just listed. Thanks again for coming on.

To everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.