Episode 86: Psychoanalysis (Part 1): Bridging Science With Soul [featuring Dr. Karissa Burnett]
Dec 26, 2024
Show Notes
As a neurodivergent individual, it can sometimes feel like your true self is hidden beneath layers of societal expectations.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, along with Dr. Karissa Burnett, a depth psychologist, trauma specialist, the founder of Divergent Pathways, and a late-diagnosed Autistic ADHDer, discuss the deep inner workings of the mind, the societal challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals, and the valuable insights that psychoanalytic therapy can offer. Together, they explore the intersections of depth psychology, authenticity, and the lived experiences of Autistic individuals, aiming to shed light on often misunderstood aspects of mental health.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover how making unconscious feelings and behaviors conscious can lead to significant healing and a deeper understanding of oneself.
- Gain insights into societal discomfort with authenticity and how autistic behaviors can challenge social norms by exposing hidden realities, framed through a canary-in-the-coal-mine metaphor.
- Learn about therapeutic approaches like psychoanalytic therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS) that go beyond symptom management to understand the underlying reasons for behaviors, offering transformative potential for neurodivergent individuals.
As you reflect on today’s episode, consider the true self that you might be keeping hidden and think about the societal norms that challenge your authenticity. Remember, making the unconscious conscious is a journey toward healing and self-discovery.
NOTE: In this episode, we touch on the concept of "sacred rage," which is explored in-depth by Dr. Jennifer Mullan in her book Decolonizing Therapy.
More about Dr. Karissa Burnett:
Dr. Karissa Burnett (she/her) is a trailblazing depth psychologist and trauma specialist known for bridging science with soul. As the founder of Divergent Pathways and a late-diagnosed Autistic ADHDer herself, she provides transformative therapeutic assessments that empower clients to embrace their authentic selves. Featured in the American Psychological Association's “Monitor on Psychology" magazine for advancing neurodiversity-affirming care, Dr. Burnett advocates for disability justice, providing consultation to the ACLU and using her voice to promote systemic change.
- Website: divergentpathways.com
- Facebook: facebook.com/divergentpathways
Dr. Burnett provides therapeutic assessments for adults in MA, CA, and WA. Clinical Consultation is available for clinicians worldwide.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have Dr. Karissa Burnett, she/her. She is a trailblazing depth psychologist and a trauma specialist known for bridging sciences with soul, which I love that statement.
As the founder of Divergent Pathways and a late-diagnosed autistic ADHDer herself, she provides transformative therapeutic assessments that empower clients to embrace their authentic selves, featured in the American Psychological Association, monitors on Psychology Magazine for advancing neurodiversity-affirming care. Dr. Burnett advocates for disability justice, providing consultation to the ACLU, and using her voice to promote systemic change. Also, a fantastic dancer, found this out in Italy, firsthand. You know when you were dancing with that old Italian man at the restaurant? So, that was also super cool.
KARISSA BURNETT: Wow. Thank you. Good to be here with you both. Oh yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: It's so good to have you. Like, I don't really know this, but you were one of the first, I think, you were the person that connected me to, like, the neurodiversity-affirming space. Like, I met you like a month into my discovery on, can't remember what Facebook group it was. It was like, maybe Autistic Women or something. And you told me about, like, the traditional Facebook group for ND-affirming. And like, I didn't even know that was a thing, like neurodiversion-affirming. So, you were, like, my gateway into the ND… Like finding all the other people who were thinking about ND-affirming work. So, thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, wait, hold on. So, after my discovery, Karissa, I text you because you had just taken one of my courses to say like, "Hey, I got these results. Can you help explain them to me and help me make sense of them?"
And then, you sent me like a 12-minute voice memo making sense of everything that I needed to make sense of. So, I just want to thank you for that too.
KARISSA BURNETT: Wow. You're welcome, wow.
MEGAN NEFF: How do you take all these compliments?
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, no, that's really profound and beautiful, and means a lot to hear that. And yeah, I know this is a long time coming, and it's really just such an honor to be here with you both. I'm so proud of you and so appreciative of what you've created, and all you've done for the community. And you're just so awesome. So, excited for this conversation. Thank you for having me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for our conversation. I know a bit of your work. I know you do a lot of assessments, and I know how much detail you put into it, and how much of, well, speaking of soul, like, how much of your soul you put into it, which I think makes for exquisite, affirming autism assessments. But I know, like, it takes a ton out of you because of the complexity, and the nuance, and the layers of which you are thinking about people's experience. Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for seeing me, absolutely. It's an honor. And I mean, I take it seriously, like journeying with people and assessments. I think we'll probably talk about that a little bit more as the podcast goes on. But, you know, I don't want to get it wrong, and I care a lot about how I write the thing, and I wanted to have the right shade of the thing, you know, to really convey the truth of their experience. Probably, a lot of that comes from medical gaslighting and reading things myself, you know, it hurts, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. Yeah. I think I want to get into, like, autism-affirming analytic assessments.
KARISSA BURNETT: We'll do that, yep. So, we're going to talk about psychoanalytic theory, wisdom, and insight-
MEGAN NEFF: Therapy, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: …ideas, all that, right? So, and I'd say like depth-oriented because that includes, like, Carl Jung and stuff that's for more my speed, but all of it, but, you know? Like, the way we just went in depth about that, for example.
So, one of the things I want to start with is, like, in training, and in general, in the field, at least, I heard several times autistic people can't do psychoanalytic, depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapy. Oh, they're autistic, nope, they need CBT, certainly, ABA, right? And adults, the CBT, etc., probably a little bit of an extension of that assumption, with just behavioral stuff only. But beyond that, like, you know, they don't have an imagination, or they're not self-reflective, they're not introspective. You know, they're too literal, so they can't do any kind of symbolic stuff. Like, just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes and assumptions made that autistic people can't do this depth-oriented kind of work, when, actually, I think it's the opposite.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. I was thinking the same thing, of like, we just did what we're talking about, where we took an interaction and then we went deep with it to understand, kind of, the underpinnings.
And that is what I love about depth work is these everyday moments become these portals to much deeper self-understanding and much deeper, like, interpersonal understanding. And I love that work. It's so generative, it's so engaging.
And I also heard, not as much as you because I didn't go to as focused of a psychodynamic training program as you, but I have heard similar things around CBT for autism, and, yeah, that we can't do depth work, whereas for me, like I tried a lot of therapies, and it wasn't until I worked with a psychoanalytic therapist that therapy finally worked for me. And yeah, I see it being such a rich frame of therapy for many of us, not for all of us, because no therapy works for all of us, but for many of us.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. If we think about some of the common autistic strengths, and of course, it can look different for everybody, and we all have different profiles, different strengths, but in general, right, there often is heightened pattern recognition and a lot of, like, attention to detail and different nuances, right? And there's this, like, deep processing. And often, there is a lot of introspection and self-reflection, partially, driven by masking and survival, right? Maybe to start, but these are all things that really align with depth work.
And I'm just thinking about, like, when I was younger, all these different therapies and stuff, it wasn't till working with a union therapist that I finally was like, "Oh, I could understand." Because what the psychoanalytic stuff does, psychodynamic is like the modern term that gets used. You might hear us use it interchangeably, or depth, you know, that's it too. But, like, it explains the why.
So, I could try all day long like CBT things replace the thing with this, or, you know, just try to do this instead of that thought or whatever, but why? Like, why isn't it working? And then, I would feel broken even more because, like, well, I'm doing the things. It's on a worksheet. I mean, geez. Like, why can't I do this worksheet? Like I've tried. Like, there must be something wrong, and certainly, you know, neuronormative, that's part of it. But also, I needed to understand the why, and I think a lot of us do. It's logical to understand the why, the patterns, how childhood things form, templates, etc.
MEGAN NEFF: I was the exact same way, and I had so many whys, especially, until identification because like the math didn't add up. The internal suffering that I experienced and the level of mental health struggles I experienced didn't match up with my external life. Like, it didn't make sense. And so, I had a lot of whys and a lot of those were also deeply existential, and I needed a container that could hold that complexity.
Yeah, I've also found with CBT tendency because our brains are so, I think, often complex, what I notice is it tends to get into, like, a wrestling match. So, maybe we're, like, reframing a thought. And then, like, if I try to reframe a thought, then I'm going to have a counter voice that's arguing with the reframed thought. And then, I'm like, four steps down where I'm arguing with myself, and I'm more entrenched in the struggle rather than like, "Oh, I've reframed that and now I'm moving on."
KARISSA BURNETT: That's where parts work can be helpful, which is also psychoanalytic depth style, yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I've noticed that IFS, so internal family systems is a really popular framework for a lot of both autistic and ADHD folks. And I think it's neat because it combines depth work and it has something very concrete to anchor in when we start talking about parts. Like, it's a very concrete, like I can externalize, I can talk about that part. And so, yeah, I think that can be a really powerful access point for a lot of us.
KARISSA BURNETT: Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like I've heard you two talk about before, and maybe even you, Patrick, especially, like energy stuff. I don't know, this is where, when I learned about Carl Jung, especially, and like the collective unconscious and synchronicities, right, and whoa, like, almost like this magical soul aspect that there could be room for that, and like this depth of meaning and stuff, it really aligned with this, like, just energetic attunement or pattern depth of feeling, vibes, thing that I had experienced today. I guess I was curious if that's part of your experience too, Patrick, or what you meant about energy.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think I've always felt that way in terms of being able to pick up on energy and receive energy. And I think that it's an interesting phenomenon for me because I haven't really explored a lot of depth-oriented therapeutic modalities aside from maybe IFS to some degree. I've never done any psychoanalytic or psychodynamic, stayed very much in like the solution-focused CBT, DBT, all the BTs. And none of those ever worked for me.
And like Megan was saying, just that existential processing and having you, Karissa, saying, like, wanting to know the meaning of things and wanting to get to the bottom of things. But I'm also, like, my being is, like, constantly scanning for understanding energy around me. And I've never really been able to put words to that.
You had said something to me in Italy about that, and I was like, "Huh." You know because when we use, like, I'm just thinking of a Facebook post I made last night about looking for my own therapist. And I was like, "I don't really want anyone who's like too "woo." Right? And you and I were kind of talking about this in Italy, and you were like, "Well, picking up on energy and intuition is definitely like a version of that that's in itself too." And I was like, "Huh, I had never processed thinking about this this way before."
MEGAN NEFF: I think that's one of the reasons I like, like, psychodynamic theory, and particularly, the idea of the collective unconscious, is it provides… Because I'm similar to you, Patrick, and then, like, I'm a weird mix of like, I get uncomfortable around a lot of woo and people with a lot of that energy. It feels a little bit overwhelming for me.
But in my personal life, in a very structured way, I have a lot of things, especially, around energy and connection that would look and be very woo, but it's gotten kind of intellectual framing around it. And I think that's part of what some of analytics theory does is it provides a robust framework to understand some of these experiences. Like, I think a lot of us are pretty tapped into the collective unconscious and have these really profound, what some might call spiritual experiences around that.
So, I know for me, especially, as I was moving away from religion, having an alternative framework to capture these experiences that I have has been really powerful.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I honestly haven't done as intense research into this as I want to someday. But, you know, I've heard it said, and theorized, and felt that, perhaps, historically, you know, witches, oracles-
MEGAN NEFF: Shamans.
KARISSA BURNETT: Sham, absolutely, hermits. Like, maybe they tended to be autistic sometimes, you know? There's something to it, possibly, right? I certainly resonate with that.
And so, there's this interesting thing I realized in prepping for this that I thought was pretty cool, that I'll say now. No, we'll go from there. Like, I realized autistic people often make the unconscious conscious frequently, right? So, like, through our natural ways of just being in the world, the making the unconscious conscious thing, that term is used in psychoanalytic theory, that's like the thing. Like, that's what we do. We want to make the unconscious conscious. That's how healing happens. We want to get insight into that and realize what's going on underneath, right?
And again, like, why, maybe actually depth work aligns with us, but also, just in general, maybe why things are tough sometimes, but also, some strengths maybe worth exploring a little bit. Like, I think we're often making the unconscious conscious, whether we realize it or not just through, you know, picking up on more things, depth of processing, often just answering things truthfully or not going along with the neuronormative script that's expected. You know, it's almost like we often mirror things to people. Well, maybe we don't always even attend to, right? Or even if we're just sitting there and maybe stimming a little, or just not even, just being ourselves to some degree, like that could be enough for people to have a reaction sometimes, "How dare they?" Kind of, right?
And that comes from like their shadow would be the idea because they're not allowed to be their true selves on some level, right? There's something to this. Like, this kind of stuff, kind of, it doesn't explain, but it gives a little bit of insight into why perhaps society has such a problem with us sometimes.
MEGAN NEFF: Why we make society uncomfortable because it's shining a light on an unconscious. That's a really interesting idea, Karissa.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, yeah. Is that a new thing? Like, how have you both conceptualized that before?
MEGAN NEFF: It's slightly different. But I have this children's book that, like, wrote itself in my head, that I wish I like had the skills to actually turn it into a children's book. But the idea of this children's book is it's a child that's like about to depart, to be born on the earth. And it's talking to a divine being, and it's given an option, like, you can have this life and kind of a like description of a neurotypical life, or you can have this life. And you're going to feel things really sensitively. Like, these will be some of the strengths that come with it, but there's a sacrifice to pay. Is that you are going to be the signal to society of what is not working. So, like, your body will more sensitively react to the toxins. You will be tied to authenticity, and it will be a signal for society to help society, but it's going to be hard. And-
KARISSA BURNETT: [CROSSTALK 00:31:16] they listened.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it would, it would. And then, I've also seen this metaphor of like, and words, and metaphors, and warning fog, that coal mine, the bird in the coal mine.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, yeah, canary in the coal mine, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes. That's kind of the autistic experience of how both on a, like, again, a bodily level of like, we do tend to respond more sensitively to toxins in the environment, so we're often signaling to humanity kind of sacrificially where we're going awry. And so, I feel like that idea connects to this idea that you're playing with around we make the unconscious conscious. That there's something about our presence that is often deeply authentic, that can be really uncomfortable to be around, and that the things we signal toward can be really uncomfortable to be around.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. But the idea is that, you know, it takes what you're saying, which absolutely, I think, that's very true, but then, it adds this layer of why don't they listen? Why are they uncomfortable, right? Because it could be, wow, the canary in the coal mine, the canary is tweeting or not? Oh, no, we should listen. But that doesn't really go that way, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
KARISSA BURNETT: It's more of a oppression, is often the reaction, or punishment, or gaslighting, or that didn't happen. I didn't say it like that. You're not feeling that correctly, etc., right? That tends to be a pretty common experience.
So, it's unfortunate, at least from what I've experienced and seen often, the sensitivity, this keen sense of maybe what's happening, intuition, feeling, vibe. You know, we take in way more stimuli from the environment. It makes sense to me that we're processing things, right? Like, and have a pulse on it. When it's consistently, chronically invalidated, gas lit, punished, I think, a lot of us turn it off. And we learned to not listen to our emotional compass. We dissociated away. Alexithymia, I think, is in here a little bit, if we want to look at it from this perspective.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I was thinking about that even as I was talking, and I was getting a little bit uncomfortable, and my brain was doing the thing of like, I'm saying an idea, but I'm also critiquing my idea as I say my idea. And I'm like, okay, I feel like, in our conversation so far we're kind of leaving out, like, more the stereotypical presentation of autism with high alexithymia, with hyposensitive, where it's like, I am, like, with high alexithymia it is more common to be externally oriented thinking versus internal reflective. So, I love that you brought up alexithymia.
And like, I'm still sorting out. I've heard the idea that behind every hyposensory person is a hypersensitive person. I like that idea. I'm not sure I fully agree with it because I think, like, neurologically, it's maybe a little bit more complex than that. But yeah, that is a tension I feel around this conversation whenever we talk about the hypersensitivity of the autistic experience, or even, like, right now, you know, when folks are talking about the hypersensitivity of how we're experiencing this election right now. Like, there's, also, like, autistic people who helped the president incoming in get elected. So, like, there's not, or, like, justice sensitivity, there's not a monolith of autistic experiences. And so, I always get in pretzels with this conversation.
And I think our podcast listeners, I think we tend to attract the like hypersensitive autistic person, but the autistic experience is so broad. And I just said a lot.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. I mean, we can't know for sure. Certainly, I don't know for sure, and very much open to learning, but at least from the research I've done in clinical experience, and you know, I certainly might attract a certain type of client, et cetera. But my impression is alexithymia comes from the trauma literature. And we look at it that way. It makes sense to me if in autism, right? There's different types of hyper and hypo connectivity, and it is unique depending on the person, et cetera, but maybe, maybe, I mean, I'm not sure, but in theory, right? If on some level big emotion for whatever, like, you know, and often punished for stimming, need to repress it, can't look different, can't notice things different, can't pick up on, can't behave different, etc., what's going to happen to the feelings? They need to go somewhere?
And I think one of the ways they could be handled at a young age, perhaps, is to be dissociated away, and then the focus is on other people.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and this is so common post-discovery where people will be like, "I'm struggling more now." And I know I was like that. Like, my sensory stuff got more intense, and it's because I was thawing out, because I had coped with so much dissociation, especially, for my body. So, I see that a lot where post-discovery, like, sensory stuff gets more intense. Emotions can get more intense because there is that, like, thawing out of that kind of chronic hypo-arousal alexithymic state that many of us have gone to protectively. Yeah, absolutely.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, totally, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: I have a thing about the election I could say. Patrick, did you want to say anything on this piece first? Or what do you think?
PATRICK CASALE: I really like that you're moderating right now. So, thank you for that.
KARISSA BURNETT: I'm included.
PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate it. No, I'm enjoying what we're talking about. And I probably am just thinking, reflecting.
KARISSA BURNETT: It'll happen when you want to.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: And I just interrupted you. Maybe you were going to say something, okay.
PATRICK CASALE: I was going to say, like, to a couple points back, just that there becomes this almost like repression state, in terms of, I don't want to be too much, right? Like, I don't want to come across as there's always something with me. And that's something that I've felt my entire life. So, it's something I'm very aware of, like how I navigate, not only in social situations, and whether that be masking or complete dissociation, but I think it leads to people pleasing, too, in a lot of situations.
And then, what you were saying, Karissa, sorry, I'm just listening to, like, planes fly overhead of my hotel distracting me. Just that sense of being, and being really authentic, and responding authentically, and maybe stimming a little bit, like you're mentioning, and how people can get irritated with that. Like, how that can eliminate a shadow side. I really like that perspective because for a lot of people who may experience autistic people out in public, doing those things, or being really authentic, or being really direct with communication, they may really wish that they could be those things, and they get so frustrated, right? Of like, "How come I can't just respond this way? How come I can't interact this way?
And diverging to a different thought is in my retreats, I think about this a lot. People will say to me similar stuff that you said to me when we were talking privately, that I make the people feel very, very comfortable by just being. And I've always tried to put words to that because I've never really been able to figure out how to openly state that, but that really helps give me perspective by if we consistently show up very authentically, and just allowing ourselves to be ourselves, and how that has a ripple effect within. And I think that is really, really powerful, and it's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress it, or mask it, or suppress it because of how much of a strength. And I look at it from that lens in terms of just that whole state of being.
My words are getting jumbled, and I would associate that.
KARISSA BURNETT: Well, it's beautiful, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:42:36]-
KARISSA BURNETT: It's profound, yeah. I mean, it reminds me of, like, hero/villain vibe, right? And this is another thing, like, depth psychology offers. Like, with this light/shadow, like, everything's got a shadow side. Side note, hero's journey also comes from these archetypes, right? Like, I just know you like Lord of the Rings, Patrick.
So, like when we are our true selves, right? In theory, it really, like, part of why I love the hermit archetype and the lantern is like my branding, like my thing, right? I loved when I learned that the hermit not only is a hermit, because, yeah, I'm a total hermit, but also, they've got their lantern and they're kind of like, lighting the path, and they're kind of ahead of their time, and it's kind of lonely, right? But they're also kind of like, you know, there's like, something powerful to that where you could, like, inspire like other people, like, show them that there is light, and they realize they have the light in themselves, you know. And they can, like, be with you too, and you can all be lit up together, right? It's really sad, tragic, unnecessary, and causes a lot of harm when people don't think they have that light within them, or don't realize they can too, or you know that, then the envy piece comes in which maybe has more of like a destructive vibe to it.
So, both could be true, or both could be the reaction to the same thing, just from you sitting there, being yourself.
I'm going to say the thing about the election now, because it kind of segues in. Yeah, this is tough stuff, and this is just one view of it. I mean, you'll hear a million people say all the different things, and why, and what, et cetera. And I can't even imagine the pain, and horror, and terror that a lot of people are feeling and experiencing. That's very real right now. But in terms of depth psychology and why it can offer a helpful frame, or at least some light into this, not only can I help give some insight into individual healing, but also, collective.
So, there's this thing called the collective unconscious. And with that, there's the collective shadow, right? So, when society's unexamined fears and biases, internalized oppression, for example, internalized ableism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, racism, etc., etc., when they're not looked at, when they're ignored, they stay in the shadow. Right? The shadow leaks out and it's projected.
And when that happens, you know, they're all projected onto marginalized groups, and then powerful figures, i.e. Trump, for example, could create an illusion of security by scapegoating differences, which actually is protecting, like, wealth inequality, power structures that harm working people, vulnerable communities, like the very things that he actually embodies, that he's, you know, clouding what's actually happening by scapegoating marginalized groups, saying it's their fault.
Yeah, so might be obvious, right? But depth psychology, like, aligns with the idea that we really need to look at these things, at these collective shadows that America has. White people, especially, we really need to do this work, examine all these internalized messages, narratives, oppressive aspects, biases, and be conscious of them so that we're not just projecting them and vulnerable to scapegoating people like this. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I really love that. Projection, in general, has, I think, been perhaps the most significant psychoanalytic idea I've learned. It was so helpful for me in my parenting because there was a lot with parenting a PDAer when she was in her toddler years. There was a lot of, like, projection that was happening.
And once I understood that, well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but kids in general, like, they communicate through their behaviors, which is kind of a like, so we then get injected with the experience-
KARISSA BURNETT: And their body.
MEGAN NEFF: And in their body. So, like, if you're a parent, you're experiencing a lot of projection, like you're experiencing the emotional experience of your child a lot of the time. And that framework has helped ground me both in my therapeutic work as a parent, but I love that you're bringing it into the collective space too because I think it doesn't answer the big questions, but it's really grounding when we can understand that.
And I think the temptation is, like, I kind of feel like projection can be contagious, like the temptation is for it to have a ripple effect. Like, I've been very intentionally not plugged into the news right now, but there's one podcast I listen to. And it was really sad to hear one of the reactions has been from the left to be telling Latino groups that things like, "I hope you get kicked out." Terrible, terrible things.
But like, we're seeing projection happening within our own, like those of us who are Democrat, those of us who are progressive, those of us who are grieving. I see the projection then continue. Like, it continues into smaller and smaller groups to where we're hurting each other.
KARISSA BURNETT: Absolutely, by design.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I think when we can understand that process so we can be like, "Wait a minute. This is not an energy I want to be contributing to. I don't need to figure out who-"
KARISSA BURNETT: Who should I really be mad at?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Right, people at the top right.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. And it's so intentionally done, you know, to create that division and that displacement of that emotion. And it's a lot easier to project that onto someone else than to say, like, let me really look inwards and see what we can do to elicit change, or grow, or learn from experiences.
And yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, Megan. And it's heartbreaking to see stuff like that. Like, "I hope you get deported because you helped him get elected." Like, that is completely nonsensical. And it almost creates fractures within subgroups of people who have shared beliefs and ideologies who no longer share those things because they're projecting grief, anger, fear, resentment, confusion, etc., elsewhere.
MEGAN NEFF: So, Pod Save America is the one podcast that I can, like, metabolize right now, and I find it grounding. But this is something that they have been talking about that I find really interesting, is that so like with Fox News and kind of on the traditional right, or even some of the influencers, because apparently, that was a big piece of why Trump won. When someone from the right speaks, you don't have everyone in the right commenting tearing that person down of like, "You haven't checked your privileged here." Or, "This comment is this." Or, "This comment is that." Like, you know, there's a lot of character assigning that can happen, of like, you're ableist for having this, or you're racist, or you're homophobic. There's a lot of that that happens in the social media space on the left.
And what they were saying is, on the left, if someone has a big audience and they're posting from their own people, they get, like, torn down. And I think I'm going to tie it back. I think partly what's happening, Karissa, is that the right they're scapegoating the left. And I mean, I guess-
KARISSA BURNETT: [CROSSTALK 00:51:27] immigrants, but yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, they're scapegoating trans people, immigrants.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, everyone.
KARISSA BURNETT: Sure yeah, absolutely, yes.
MEGAN NEFF: And I mean, we do some of that back, but we like go in on ourselves, and we're critiquing of each other in a way. Like, anyone who's in the left and has a large following, like you've got to have thick skin for when the comments come in.
KARISSA BURNETT: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And there's not the same unified, like, voice as there is on the right. And I don't know if that has to do with, I mean, I have a few theories about what that has to do with, but I think this idea of projection might play into that.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. And, I mean, who knows, but in theory, right? I didn't really hear anyone except Bernie back in the day [INDISCERNIBLE 00:52:22] if that carried forward. Like, I didn't hear the Democrats really currently talking much about how they're going to go after corporate greed and acknowledging that, like, top 1% has all the money, right? And you know, people are suffering and in pain. And what? 60% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, probably higher than that, who knows how they're getting that stat. Like, it's not good, right?
And when someone powerful and who represents the collective shadow of all these oppressive things says, "I'll take care of you." Right, you know? And it's their fault, not yours, okay, right? And it's messed up, it's gross, it's [CROSSTALK 00:53:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: It's so-
KARISSA BURNETT: But-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, this was another thing that they said over there was, like, if you did a blind taste test of the policies working class would choose, like, nine out of 10, they would choose Democrat policies. But it's your messaging. Like, the messaging, we're not connecting to working-class struggles. We're not connecting [CROSSTALK 00:53:24]-
KARISSA BURNETT: …acknowledging that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, right, so and it's all unacknowledged, you know? I feel like, you know, it gave them an answer. It gave them a why, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, it did [CROSSTALK 00:53:39]-
KARISSA BURNETT: …about it-
MEGAN NEFF: A really clear why. This is why you are struggling. And here's what we're going to do about it, even though, if you do a deep dive into your policies, it's not going to help working-class Americans.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And this has been done throughout the world over and over and over again. And we will watch it, process it, and talk about it. And it's like, how did this happen here? But this was like, this is a playbook as old as time. And I always think about the left side having no platform to stand on anything. It's always been we're just not as bad as them. Well, not Donald Trump. That's not a platform. So…
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Can differentiate a lot right now, and I'm going to [INDISCERNIBLE 00:54:27].
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:54:30]-
MEGAN NEFF: I do-
KARISSA BURNETT: Thanks for tackling it. Yeah, go ahead, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, like I hope we can find a way to come together, partly, to, yeah, come together, have something that we are, like, clearly working toward.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: No. But, I mean, I know, even before we recorded, we were like, "Do we want to open this can of worms?" I'm feeling wiggly. I don't know how you all are feeling, but…
KARISSA BURNETT: I'm just sad we're outside set of time. [CROSSTALK 00:55:02]-
MEGAN NEFF: Let's talk about assessment.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, that's okay. That's important.
MEGAN NEFF: Do one of the things-
KARISSA BURNETT: Thank you, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: …that you really do that I don't know of other folks who are doing this, but you do comprehensive autism ADHD assessments, and you fold in kind of psychoanalytic, I don't know how you would say it, psychoanalytic thinking into that. Like, I imagine you do a really robust, like, history. And I know your feedback to folks is very layered. Can you, yeah, just talk a little bit about what it looks like to incorporate some of this really depth, soulful thinking into the assessments that you do?
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So, I really believe, you know, psychoanalytic insights are very important, valuable, and they can help autistic people rediscover their true selves. Like, to me, that's healing. Trauma is a massive reason why, right, that many of us don't quite know our true selves, or have parts of us that are a bit repressed, or waiting to be uncovered.
So, I do this thing called science with soul. I love this line. And, you know, so for testing, I'm traditionally trained. I got my master's in a neuropsych lab and have a publication in a neuropsych journal. So, I do, do a lot of traditional quantitative measures, but then after that piece is completed, what I make sure to do during the testing day is really just clinical interviewing based on, like, the MIGDAS, the DIVA, any other, like, remaining pieces. Basically, I'm doing an in-depth, comprehensive assessment of everything, not just autism ADHD, but everything neurodevelopmental and what I call like secondary mental health disorders, right? Or like symptoms.
I want to make sure I really understand their lived experiences. And I do this in a very collaborative way. I call it therapeutic assessment now. That's a term that's becoming a bit more popular. So, I'm going to say that that's what I'm doing, which I think it is, which is cool.
And, yeah, I almost view it as like a crucible. It's not just, "Are you autistic or not?" I can't help myself. I've tried to just do that because I want to increase access, etc. But it's just not me. You know? I think what I do is like, yes and, or, you know? Like, so what does that mean? What does this look like for you? Also, this trauma you've experienced, let's talk about it.
You know, also, my dissertation was on covert psychological abuse. I've got a massive gas lighting angle that integrates nicely because we often experience that quite often, right? That could be really formative. So, I want to really understand their life story and help them see it through a new lens. Yeah.
So, it's kind of like we journey to the underworld and back together. I'm kind of sharing insights as we go. Once I feel confident about something, you know, I've already done a ton of prep beforehand. I've scored all their quantitative things. I'm ready to ask them all these nuances. And I'm feeling out, like, through the meeting my experience with them. I could, you know, check on things, talk with them through things. And then, instead of, like, making them wait for some big reveal weeks later that then, you know, like, I'm sharing it with them. And I think it could be really healing. So, it's almost like a, I don't know, life story reflection, deep hours long, crucible, cool time. And that's my style of assessment, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. You're not checking a box are you autistic or not? It's like, let us understand the phenomenological experience, your phenomenological experience of what is it meant to like move through the world as an autistic person, and then whatever other secondary things are coming up let us deeply understand this. And you can then move forward with this insight. I really love that. That sounds so healing. It sounds so therapeutic.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. It's really an honor. It's cool. I've been told, you know, it's the first time they felt truly seen. I might sound like an asshole saying that, like, oh, [INDISCERNIBLE 1:00:04]. But it's like, really, like, this is stuff that we could offer to people. Like, this is important. And it's sad that they haven't gotten that before.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.
KARISSA BURNETT: You know? Like, and I want to say a few different like points that come from psychoanalytic theory, that kind of come up, that I think are important. Like, you know, I'm sitting with them and I'm hearing them, "Sorry, sorry, I, you know…" Or like, shaming themselves in front of me for, as they, like, answer a thing too much, or go into a special interest thing, or whatever, you know, the ableist internalized thing is. And it's really powerful to get to kind of call them out, especially, to get a little rapport, right? And in real-time, because that's often such a big thing. And so, those are corrective emotional experiences is what that's called, right?
And where they get to experience what it's like to be seen and like safe to be unmasked, or to reveal parts of themselves. I often am stemming along on camera with them. There's also a piece we didn't talk about yet, but I'll throw in where… Often I could feel if clients are dissociating.
MEGAN NEFF: Me too, I will start dissociating even through telehealth.
KARISSA BURNETT: Right, yeah. That goes with this energy thing, perhaps, you know? That's the thing where I had to really learn. It took a while because it always felt like it was me. Like, "Oh, I'm just this anxious whatever." You know.
And the reason I'm saying this is because, you know, we're therapists, so we know, like, the term countertransference, and we're, like, reflecting on it. But I'd be willing to bet a lot of people listening across the board, probably, have this experience to some degree sometimes, you know? Not everybody, but…
MEGAN NEFF: Sure.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, like, it's worth asking yourself how was I feeling when I got here? Or, you know, is this mine? Or, you know, I'll never forget we had the internship interviews, Meg. So, for the doctoral program, right? We have to, like, do like, 20 different interviews, and they're always the same questions. That was a powerful time where I was like, "Wow, they're the same questions." And I could feel how different I felt with each person. And that was, like, striking to me. Like, "Whoa. Maybe it's not just me." Yeah, it took that for me to really realize. And from there, you know?
So, what I'll do, back to the point, is, like, wow, you know, I'm noticing… And I'll start to, like, point out, or like, say, I'm noticing my throat skin a little tight. And what are, you know, right? Are you experiencing anything or what's coming up for you? Yeah, it could really lead to some powerful stuff.
Another thing I want to throw out there is that, so it's the secondary mental health disorders, I call them that, because they're on top of. So, when we have these unidentified, unaddressed, unacknowledged differences, neurodevelopmental differences, we got to survive somehow. There's often chronic, complex trauma, and micro and macro waste. And we do things to survive. They're called defenses, right? That's the psychoanalytic term, or, you know, mental health disorders. They could become, but for example, like I frame generalized anxiety disorder as a defense against rejection sensitive dysphoria.
MEGAN NEFF: That's interesting. I like that.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, there's some others too. But, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, are there other ones you see? Like, I'm curious what other like patterns you found?
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, do you see depression as a defense against…
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, defense against anger. Yeah. This anger thing is big, at least in clients I've worked with. That seems to be a big theme, like this repression of anger.
MEGAN NEFF: I've heard, I can't remember who it was, but I've heard the idea that depression is anger turned inward.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yep, yep. That's an old psychoanalytic idea, I believe.
MEGAN NEFF: I was thinking so, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. It's almost, like, you know, the classic ideas, when you see, like, the self-criticism, like, "Oh, I'm a failure. I messed up, I suck." Right? Like, that would be like the repression of anger, like, turned inward.
MEGAN NEFF: Which makes sense, because it's so unsafe for so many of us to be angry.
KARISSA BURNETT: Right, right. Yeah, we learned that we're not allowed to be, that we're wrong to be, right, back to the gaslighting of our perception often. We don't have a right to be, so it must be us who's messed up and whatever.
Yeah, so that one's a big one. Like, maybe, is there a way to ask, like, who am I really mad at? Or even just to like, visualize, or if you don't have access to visuals, they should just, like, say a lot, or, I don't know, think about, or question, or, you know, imagine whatever, put on a song. I call it sacred rage, sometimes.
MEGAN NEFF: Sacred rage.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot to be mad at.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, even institutions, like, my goodness, individuals, institutions, systems, there's a lot of oppressive shit. Like, you know, it doesn't mean we have to go fight the man overtly, per se, even though, yeah, join us, yes, let's do it.
But, you know, like just even holding them accountable in your mind and realizing it's not all your fault can be really powerful and important. So, that's a big part of this. But when our true selves are riddled with shame, and internalized ableism, and all the things that we've got, all these defenses against RSD because it's so painful, and I did this again, and I'm a failure, a brat, you know, so I got an X, Y, Z to prevent, you know, we're not able to really be ourselves. And so, this true self thing that comes from psychoanalysis. And I'd say, like, you know, at least, from what I've seen in my experience, a lot of these secondary mental health conditions, the anxiety, social anxiety, which often is anger too, by the way, it's interesting, like, they tend to become less intense or fade away when our autistic identity neurodivergent identities are integrated. Yeah, [CROSSTALK 1:07:46]-
MEGAN NEFF: I've seen that too.
KARISSA BURNETT: …shadows, yeah. Well, I realized maybe we're not so bad. Maybe there is gold in the shadow. The things that we've been taught are wrong about us. Maybe they're not. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that language of kind of integrating a neurodivergent identity as a, like, because it is. It's like a developmental task. And the idea, in a recent episode we did on giftedness, the idea of disintegration and integration came up as like that can be a common process post-discovery. And so, this idea of, yeah, these are identities to be integrated. And in that work, often, that can help reprieve some of those other mental health conditions. Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Absolutely, yeah. I know the term integration, like in the DID community, right? Systems sometimes that can be misused, the term integration. I'd say in terms of like, like, true self, all that, I'd say true selves, right? Yeah, it's all about gaining more and more access to our parts, to our true selves, no matter what, like, and feeling safer to be them. Yeah, which we all deserve, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: And I feel like that's often the goal of a lot of depth therapy, is more access to self more. Yeah, you're right. I've historically talked about it as an integrated self, but there's times where that language isn't appreciated. But yeah, more access to self, a more expansive self is also sometimes how I'll talk about it.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. Joseph Campbell said, hero's journey dude, the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I think that's part of the power a lot of people experience post-identification, especially, in adulthood, is it gives many of us the freedom to finally be who we are. And there's a lot of power and healing in that.
KARISSA BURNETT: Absolutely, yeah. I'm sad it's over.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation, and it has diverged a lot. Like, when I think back about on the last hour, I'm like, wow, we've traveled a lot of emotional places, from like laughter to like some very somber places, to anger to… Like, we've had an emotionally complex conversation. I've felt that. Yeah, it's felt really generative and really rich.
KARISSA BURNETT: Part of me said I didn't get to tell you my big, common conceptual thing that I like to say to clients or teach them. Maybe I'll do it now that I awkwardly said that, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I was like, well, you can't, like, say that and then leave everyone hanging.
KARISSA BURNETT: I know. Yeah, well…
PATRICK CASALE: Got it too, coming out soon.
KARISSA BURNETT: Well, go to my website. Yeah. Okay, so, I mean, I don't know, right? But there's many factors. However, I'll say it seems. At least with high-masking autistic adults, often, not always, but often there's this tendency toward obsessive thinking, right?
MEGAN NEFF: For sure.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. And I know you just –
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 1:11:42] yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely, right? So, and I need to listen to the whole OCD series, so admittedly, I might say something that's totally in contrast to them, or maybe this is just a different adding-on viewpoint.
But from a psychoanalytic perspective, OCD, one, there's this drive to, like, control the uncontrollable, right? But often, there's this idea that feelings have been relegated to the dirt, to the childish, they're unacceptable. There's some feeling, often anger, again, with the anger, like, not allowed or not correct, right? And it goes with masking. It goes with rumination. Like, we got to do intellectual cross-neurotype translation. Of course, we're going to be in our mind, etc. But like, it goes with this dissociation from feelings thing to the point where sometimes I'll, like, see it in real-time with clients, or I try to pay attention to it. My own life, like, maybe I get mad or something, or I see someone get upset, rightly so they're upset. Maybe they don't even realize it. But the instant thing, instead, the conscious thing is, "What did I do? Well, what if I? What if I…"
You know, the obsessive thinking is going, right, pretty automatic when maybe they have some feelings. And so, the ultimate, you know, I know it's different for everyone. There's different, like, interoception capacities, experiences, et cetera, things to work through, things that are just how they are, but in general, right? Like, maybe there's some kind of emotional experience, or bodily somatic experience, embodied, whatever that is for the person, the idea would be, maybe there's a way for thinking, feeling, sensing, perceiving, and whatever their true self way is. Like, that's the goal. I think, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I just want to make sure I'm getting you right. Like, the obsessive thinking would be a defense against feeling?
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: That makes a lot of sense intuitively as I think about myself, as I think about people I knows experience.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's pretty wild. And you know, the controlling, the uncontrollable thing, you know, it makes sense, and similarly, the leading disorders. There's different, you know, views, understandings, conceptualization [CROSSTALK 1:14:38]-
MEGAN NEFF: There's a lot of creative ways that we avoid our emotions as neurodivergent people.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, absolutely, yeah. You hear the control thing, yeah. But another way to think about it, like, symbolically, that psychoanalytic aspects would add is like, maybe fear of taking up space, right? Having needs. And there's such a symbolic, like, that kind of comes out in the and eating as symbolic for emotional, yeah, the right [CROSSTALK 1:15:10]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, the feelings take up a lot of space and you don't know how containable it'll be. So, to, like, dip into our feelings and it's like, well, I don't know when this starts and when this ends? And so, yeah, let me just put it in a tight box and lock it up.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. Right, absolutely, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. So, the idea is, with all these things and these ideas, I mean, certainly, if it doesn't resonate, we're not going to push it on the person. Like, you know, it's about figuring out what does resonate for them. But if we kind of have a pulse on it and the why, or some kind of frame and it makes some kind of sense, then at least maybe we can understand ourselves a bit more, have more self-compassion, and realize and like, "Oh." And actually, like, where this came from, what it's doing, and thank ourselves even on some level, maybe, or we're trying to survive because X, Y, Z and, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that because you're looking at, like, what is the function of this thing? When we just focus on symptom reduction, we miss that piece of like, wait, this thing is here. Like, maybe anxiety is here, or obsessiveness is here. And it's actually trying to protect me. Let me appreciate what it's trying to protect me. And I think we have to do that work before we can even really meaningfully reduce symptoms. We have to understand what it's protecting us from.
KARISSA BURNETT: Absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: I really love the depths you bring in that way of thinking about it. Yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah. I think IFS kind of goes with that vibe a little bit, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, IFS does that well too, of like, you've got protective parts, and what is it. And also, the, yeah, yeah. Well, I've really enjoyed this meandering conversation. I know like, I want to be like, where can people find you if they want more? But I also know your assessment list is so long that I don't want to send people there. Like, I know you have a website, but do you have ways people can connect with your work if they're interested in working with you, or if they're therapists interested in consulting with you?
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely. I've shifted my practice a bit, and I am focusing on the therapeutic assessments now. I am very motivated to see people in that capacity. And so, I would say, even if you see that there might be a way I would love for you to join my wait list if you are interested. I work with clients who are adults in Massachusetts, California, and Washington state, that's where I'm licensed via telehealth. And you could go to my website, divergentpathways.com to learn more about working with me and to join my waitlist if you're interested. It's non-binding. And there's a bunch of resources on my website, too. Also-
MEGAN NEFF: You have a great resource section. Like, if people just want that alone, like your resource section is amazing.
KARISSA BURNETT: Thank you. Yeah, cool, yeah. So, definitely check that out. Thank you, Meg. And I also have an advocacy page, so feel free to follow my Facebook. So, that's facebook.com/divergent pathways. Would love to see you there.
And I do provide consultation to other clinicians worldwide, and would be honored to work with you. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time today to be with us.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm sad it's over. Geez.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I need to have you back.
KARISSA BURNETT: [CROSSTALK 1:19:13] with you all day, absolutely. Yeah, I'd love to come back. Thank you for diving in the depths with me. And, you know, I know this was a heavy one a bit after this the first one you've recorded after the election, right?
MEGAN NEFF: It's the first one where we've talked about it. I think the last few we've been in dissociative destruction. The first one where we've mentioned the election. And, yeah, that was a week ago. Oh my gosh, it was a week ago today. So, it's still fresh, still fresh.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's an honor to be here with you both. Thank you, and thanks to the listeners too, and hope to be back and solidarity.
PATRICK CASALE: Appreciate you coming on. I was telling Megan just before we close, like you took one of my first coaching programs about starting your private practice. And I just remember how anxious and overwhelmed you were about like, not only will this ever work or be successful, but will I ever encapsulate what I want it to like, really be? And I think you've done a remarkable job. So, congratulations on everything you've done. And it's been great just becoming a friend, and a colleague, and really, really appreciate you.
KARISSA BURNETT: Oh, wow. Thank you, Patrick, wow. Yeah, you were there when I made my name and everything. [INDISCERNIBLE 1:20:35] Divergent Salt, though.
PATRICK CASALE: I think we went on a long journey for that one.
KARISSA BURNETT: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 1:20:41].
MEGAN NEFF: Oh yeah, Divergent Pathways, yeah.
KARISSA BURNETT: Thank you. So cool, so special, so sacred, really cool stuff, yeah. Okay, I'll see you later.
PATRICK CASALE: There you go. We should have our guests do the sign-off from now on, just like whatever comes to your mind, go.
New episodes are out on Fridays and all major platforms and YouTube. I think Megan said last episode, if you like the podcast, like the podcast and find it online. See you next week.
