Episode 85: Giftedness (Part 6): Series Reflections and Insights
Dec 19, 2024
Show Notes
Navigating the world as a gifted individual can be emotionally taxing and filled with both internal and external challenges that are often dismissed or minimized by oneself and others. The giftedness label is often viewed as a privilege resulting in failure to recognize and offer support for the very real struggles that can come with it.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, open up about their personal experiences and discuss the complexities of giftedness, identity, and coping mechanisms in the context of mental health.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover how giftedness and neurodivergence both intersect and differ, offering nuanced perspectives on recognizing and understanding these traits.
- Learn about how this giftedness series sparked deep self-reflection for the hosts, creating a space for them and listeners to explore the emotional layers of their experiences.
- Delve into thoughtful discussions on how societal perceptions of intelligence and privilege impact self-identity and mental health, challenging common assumptions about capability and success.
As you reflect on your own experiences or the experiences of those around you, consider the ways in which you navigate your identity and emotions. Remember, it’s okay to seek support and embrace your complexities.
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: iACTcenter & The Gifted Learning Lab
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The Gifted Learning Lab is all about empowering parents to raise their gifted and 2e kids with confidence and less conflict. If you’re looking for real, neurodivergent-affirming strategies, you can check out Danika’s free email mini-course on reducing power struggles at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And for those wanting a deeper dive, her coaching program, 'Support Your Intense Gifted/2e Kid,' offers hands-on support for the journey.
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Okay, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: We just finished recording our giftedness series. And I know we both have a lot of thoughts, and feelings, and aha moments that have come up along the way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. What has this series been like for you?
PATRICK CASALE: You know, it's interesting. We were just talking with Danika, is her last name Maddocks?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: I want to make sure I got it right.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Danika Maddocks, and I'm just sitting there thinking about, like, okay, I have definitely experienced, weirdly, in my opinion, like more shame and stigma using the gifted label or association for myself than I have for the autistic ADHD labels or designation.
MEGAN NEFF: Like stigma from yourself or stigma from other [CROSSTALK 00:04:18].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Stigma for myself, for sure. And then, what went through my mind so often throughout those episodes is like, damn, for most people listening, how in the hell do they really figure out how to differentiate between like the autistic experience and a lot of the gifted experience? Because a lot of the subjective stuff that we talked about, and a lot of this stuff that we talked about would make such a good Venn diagram for you.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, Katie's already done that, thankfully, so I don't have to touch that. But yeah, there are definitely times where… Or even I would kind of step in and be like, "Well, actually, I think what you're describing is ADHD because I also do that." And I think it does get so messy. And I think that's part of, like, folks who are critical of the gifted conversation and the ableism in it. Like, that is the critique is that these other traits, like autistic ADHD traits get overshadowed when someone's like, "Oh, that's gifted."
And maybe that kind of gets to the conversation in the ND space, in general, of like, "Oh, that's an autism thing." Like, there's a lot of monopolizing of traits that happens like, "Oh, that's a gifted trait." Like, well, maybe we can lean in with curiosity, okay, that's an experience that humans having. There might be a lot of factors for that, but there is this urge to, like, label it, that's a gifted trait, that's a ADHD trait, that's a autistic trait, that's RSD. Like, this obsession with naming, not that naming and labeling, like, I think that's very powerful, but it can be kind of reductionistic, I think, if we're not careful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think when we step into a space where people are naming things that they have maybe been searching for, for their entire life, and it feels very much like identity-focused, that it does get monopolized a lot of times, like we've talked about. And you do a really good job of this, much better than me, when you talk about, like, "Okay, this might be an autistic person who has some ADHD traits or experiences, but that doesn't mean that they're also ADHD. And because we have this cross-neuro type familiarity, and there's so much association and correlation things get lost."
I think that, and I was just paying attention to even our comments on our social media, obviously, I am guilty of that all the time, of just the realization of how polarizing the subject is for a lot of people.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, it's interesting for someone who has a large account, I actually don't open social media anymore. Like, very rarely. Like, I think I looked at my phone, I think, typically, on a week I've been on social media like five minutes in a given week. And so, I don't have a good pulse on the conversation. But I had seen, like, one thing around someone had said gifted isn't neurodivergence. And there was a big conversation around it.
So, yeah, so far when we're recording this we've only released one episode and realizing just how tense of a conversation this is. I also did not know what we were getting into, which maybe it's really good, like, that we kind of naively walked into this conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: I think so because we both walked into it with a lot of curiosity instead of walking into it feeling like the expert role by any means [INDISCERNIBLE 00:07:50] in general.
One thing I saw a lot of comments about, and not just in our post, but like because I would hate to say that I've been on social media for more than five minutes each week, probably closer to 20 hours…
MEGAN NEFF: In a week? How are you mentally okay?
PATRICK CASALE: I'm not. But one thing I see so often in a lot of spaces, not just the one reel that we've already posted is, "Isn't gifted just autism?" That's what comes out a lot.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait what? No, because like, I'm not-
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: That would mean all autistic people are gifted.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. And-
MEGAN NEFF: Or they're saying everyone who's gifted is autistic?
PATRICK CASALE: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: I guess you could say it the other way.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I don't-
PATRICK CASALE: Right, because I've watched you sit through this series, and, you know, offline, even texting you like, "Megan, are you sure you're not gifted." Like, and colleagues of ours have also said similar things, and you're like, "No. Like, I am not." Right? It's almost like having to defend the fact that [CROSSTALK 00:09:00]-
MEGAN NEFF: It's having to defend how not smart I am. No, I've been thinking about that too because that actually, it's interesting. I think through most of my life this wouldn't have happened, but perhaps because I am perceived as successful and maybe because I have a doctorate. Like, this happens a lot to me when I disclose I'm not gifted I often will get… it'll be a range of, like, surprise, which is, like, that kind of feels good a little bit to, like, straight up push back of like, "No, you're gifted. Here's why."
And then, I'm like, I have to go into the details of like how difficult school was for me, how my IQ… Like, my IQ is, you know, I'm in the top quarter of intelligence. Like, I'm not saying I'm not intelligent, but having to unpack, like, my IQ. And so, I'm always curious, like, what happens for gifted people when they hear I'm not gifted? Because they don't like it. And they, like, want me to be gifted.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm not going to lie, I was one of those people, for sure. I was like-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, what was going on for you? Like, what didn't you like?
PATRICK CASALE: I guess it's shock. I don't know. And I know you're going to get uncomfortable by what I'm about to say, but I think that for me, I look at you, and I think a lot of people look at you this way, where they're like, "Megan is so freaking smart. Megan is so…" I'm trying to sign my words because I don't want to, like, misconstrue what I'm trying to say. I think people look at you as a role model in this field. I think they look at you as someone who has a lot of knowledge about something that feels really complex. And I think that creates confusion if we're saying like, "Well, Megan is really passionate about this. This is a special interest. This is the identity they experience on a daily basis." Like, there's so much to that unpack.
And I think there is an association of, like, intelligence and giftedness, and in some ways, right? And like I would say, if we posted a poll, which would be fun, in a way to say, like, "Who's more intelligent, Patrick or Megan?"
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh.
PATRICK CASALE: Your results would be, it would be a landslide. Like, it wouldn't even be close, you know what I mean? So, I think that there is that piece that probably creates a little bit of like, "Huh." But I know you as a friend, and I know how hard you've said to me, like, "I've had to work so hard at everything that I do, and it does not come naturally to me in a lot of ways."
So, I just want to publicly apologize for being, like, surprised by that and sharing that with you because I feel like that also minimizes your existence and your experience. And that's certainly not my intention.
MEGAN NEFF: No, I mean, I don't think you need to apologize for being surprised. That it kind of a common reaction. Yeah, it has been interesting. Like, I've thought about, it would be interesting. I think…
PATRICK CASALE: I actually don't want to know the result of that, if that's what you're about to say.
MEGAN NEFF: No, no. I was more about the minimizing. I was trying to, like, think if there were thoughts there or feelings there. But yeah, I do think that speaks to, like, it's easy to correlate having a lot of knowledge with being gifted. And I kind of like that I get to be an example of I'm someone who, yes, I do have above-average intelligence. I'm not going to pretend like that's not there. And also, a lot a lot of passion, a lot of, like, intellectual curiosity. You know with the overexcitabilities framework, like I very much relate to that. I think intellectual OE would be like my top OE.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And that, I like that, because I think you're right. There's a conflation of, if someone is successful, if someone is intellectual, if someone likes ideas, if someone has a doctorate they must be gifted. But there's plenty of us who are not gifted. But also, are able to do those things. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so I have them thinking about this, and this is more when people are pushing back, and sometimes what they'll say is things like, "Well, you have such nuanced thoughts." Or, "You like hold complexity so well."
And I did realize, I was like, "Oh, like, that does feel a little bit like an insult, of like you have to be gifted to hold nuanced thoughts." Because I would attribute that more to the construct of wisdom than intelligence. And I do think wisdom is something that, like, I really value, and I've, like, tried to cultivate it. I'm not saying I'm like the wisest human, but it's something that for much of my life, like, that's something that I've striven to, like, push toward wisdom.
And so, that is something I've realized when folks see a mind they like that embraces complexity, that maybe they shouldn't assume that's about IQ. Maybe they should consider other things like wisdom or other constructs because I feel like it would be problematic if the idea is gifted people are these, like, complex, nuanced thinkers, and everyone else is a simpleton.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no kidding. That's really well said, that's a great point. I think that is something that there is conflation. I think that I still don't like the terminology. I don't like-
MEGAN NEFF: Terrible.
PATRICK CASALE: … the terminology. I think the last episode, what I was saying about what 2e means in terms of definition, I think that feels really insulting in a lot of ways, and off-putting in some ways. And I think that there is probably, like I said in that episode, a lot of confusion we're using the word exceptionality in different lenses and frames.
MEGAN NEFF: And I think this is why individual individuals like you have so much difficulty having this conversation. Is how do I talk about an identity that I have a complex relationship to-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: …that is like soaked in privilege and in a time where it's uncomfortable to sit with our own privilege? And so, then, to talk about, I'm going to bring out this identity that's soaked in privilege, and I'm going to talk about how it's hard for me. Like, oh my goodness, that's a really uncomfortable thing to do, let alone to do publicly.
Speaking of wisdom, like you need spaces that can hold a lot of complexity to be able to have that conversation well, which is probably why this is not the conversation to be having on social media because that tends to be a platform where it's hard to hold complex, nuanced, searching conversations.
PATRICK CASALE: You're 100% right. I was going to make a sarcastic joke of like, and you mean that is not on social media? But that's the reality of like, that's really not where these conversations need to be held because the divisiveness of social media, which we've talked about so much on this podcast and just in general. And we don't need to rehash that. But I think that is a part of it, for sure.
And just unpacking that privilege, right, of saying, okay, I'm gifted. I am a cishet white male. I have a masters. Like, there's lots of layers of privilege, so it's very hard and complex to sometimes break that down and say things are so hard so often. And that's why, what Danika said about, like, easy things are hard, hard things are easy as, like, some of the context to that episode. I was like, "Yeah, that's like the nail on the head for me in a lot of situations."
MEGAN NEFF: And that's an idea I also relate to. I think that's a common, actually, experience for neurodivergent people. But what my guess is, is that for gifted 2e people, the spikes are spikier. So, the gap for me, of like, things that are easy for me and things that are hard for me is probably a little bit smaller than the gap is for you, would be my guess.
And so, I think when it's a steeper gap, there can be more tension around it. And so, yeah, that… Because I very much relate to that, too. And I think that is part of the confusion of being neurodivergent. And then, throw on top of that giftedness. I think that would be really disorienting. And then, go back to the idea of it's hard to trust myself. Like, it's hard to even gage my ability let alone trust my ability.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, spot on. Another thing that stood out to me was the performance cliff.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, I'm curious, yeah, what stood out about that to you?
PATRICK CASALE: Who was the person? Was it Matt Zakreski?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, Matt, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, that episode we were talking about the performance cliff. And I mean, I said this in the episode, but I very much relate to that of like, okay, school's coming so easy. All these things are coming very naturally. Boom, all of a sudden I'm hit with this situation where, like, maybe life has become a little more challenging than I'm equipped to deal with, or maybe my academic setting has become more than I have the tools to resource around. And all of a sudden it feels like I can't figure out anything. And that is really a mind… mindset [CROSSTALK 00:18:46]-
MEGAN NEFF: You can say it.
PATRICK CASALE: …on this podcast, I just want to say that publicly. It is definitely a situation where you are all of a sudden… Because I think if you've gone through most of your life, like we talked about in the last episode, you're so smart, oh my God. Like, everything has come so easy, and then, boom, you're hit with this, like, performance cliff. It really makes you question your sense of self in a lot of ways, I think.
MEGAN NEFF: I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. So, it leads to, like, a loss of self-trust because it's like, "Wait, this was working, and now all of a sudden, like, I don't know how to do it, to do life." That's interesting.
PATRICK CASALE: You had mentioned something that, you know, the way you put it in that episode right about, like, having to learn how to do school, how to learn some certain things. So, then you almost have to, like, step back and reevaluate how do I now, like, learn how to do the things that were coming instinctively? And do I even feel like I am able to do those things?
And that is a really weird place to be. That happened to me when I hit college, my undergrad. And that was not a good time for that to happen because, you know, new setting, new environment, new social stuff going on, and all the things that happened with that transition. And it was just like, "I am lost." Like, I felt so freaking lost.
MEGAN NEFF: That would be a hard time for that to hit. That's so interesting. It makes me think of also that idea of like, I know the math answer, but I don't know how to explain my work. Like, to get to a point of, like, being college, of like, I don't know how to explain how I got here, which means I don't know how to, like, break down how to do it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, when the performance cliff idea came up, and this is another reason why when people push back and like, "I think you're gifted" I'm like, "No, I'm not." Beyond my IQ test, it's like, I just don't relate to some of, like, the experiences we've talked about where I'm like, "That feels like a gifted experience." I don't relate to that. The experiences that's been talked about on the series where it feels like overlapping with neurodivergence, or like, overexcitabilities I'm like, "Yes, I relate."
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: So, like, I just don't relate to the gifted experience, like the performance cliff. The image that came to my mind is like, oh, this is interesting. Like, for me, I feel like I've been, like, climbing up the cliff starting in, like, kindergarten. Like, learning to read was really hard for me. Like, they pulled me out for kind of special support.
And my sisters, I would guess my oldest sister probably is in the gifted category. Like, they were always put in advanced classes whereas I wasn't. And so, there's this experience of, like, I'm climbing up the cliff, I'm deconstructing as I'm going and figuring out how the heck do I get information into my brain to stick? And then, all of a sudden, I, like, look up, and I surprised by how high I've gotten, and also people around me are surprised by how high I've gotten.
And so, there's a very different experience than someone who has like a cliff, and then, all of a sudden, the supports gone from under them. And so, that's the imagery that's been in my mind, of like climbing up the cliff, being surprised at how high you get versus the floor just falling from under you. And all of a sudden, like you didn't even know how high you were. And all of a sudden the, like, floor's gone, just very different experiences.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a really good visual. I'm just picturing you climbing or walking up this like step, step, step, step, step. That's a good visual, though.
And I think one thing we talked about, and this happens a lot for a lot of gifted 2e individuals, is if you were, like myself, in scholastic environments in school, especially, as a child, and a teenager, and an adolescent, and things came easily to you, you can get overlooked by a lot of different systems, and that includes your parenting, your parents and your familial relationships if it's always like, "Look how smart you are, look how smart you are, we can leave you alone." You can self-parent.
And it almost creates this narrative of, like, hyper-independence, right? And then, all of a sudden it's like, "Whoa. I don't even know how to attune or attach because I've been left alone or isolated for so long because of my scholastic achievement." It's a really weird place to be.
And I think a lot of people do get overlooked for those reasons when we attribute so much praise in terms of accomplishment and we put so much emphasis on, like, how much can you achieve, or how much can you do, especially, in a capitalist society where we tend to really appreciate grind and hustle culture.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think that async development is so huge. And again, because intelligence is so forward-facing and often equates to competency. Like, the people think, okay, this is a competent person because they're intelligent, that these other huge areas of need just get completely overlooked, emotional needs.
Even, like, I think about, you know, I love that a few folks touched on, like, people with physical disabilities and high IQs. I'm also thinking about things like dyspraxia. Like, if you have dyspraxia and motor movement's hard, you could be in the one percentile around, like, the ability to move and coordinate your body, and in the 99 percentile intellectually. Like, that's a complex thing for a body to hold that nuance. So, absolutely.
And I see that, like, what you're describing as from the kid perspective. I see that from the parenting when my kids were young, it was really easy to assume they could master other things because they were speaking at such a high verbal age.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. I was going to ask you about that because in the last episode, I think you probably spoke more about the parenting piece than in a lot of the episodes, and understandably so because of the guests that we had on, I'm just curious how that was for you to see it through that lens as the parent of two gifted kids.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think it's good. I'm excited for this series to come out so that my spouse can listen to it, and so that we can have more conversations about it because, like, I've known that, but I don't think I've put the same level of thought into kind of the implications of that, or even teaching my kids about what it means to be 2e or to have a gifted brain. So, yeah, definitely I'm leaving this series with a lot to chew on.
Yeah, and it's interesting. It's been, like, an emotionally complex series for me, if I'm being honest. Like, I think we started the series with, I was like, "I'm so glad I'm not gifted." Which I still stand by that if you're like, would you rather have a performance cliff or climb up the cliff? I think I'd rather climb up the cliff. But I have, like, gotten in touch with jealousy, which I actually think is really good. I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad I can, like, name that and feel that."
And also, like, now when I make a mistake I'm like, "Oh my gosh. I've told the world what my IQ is. I've told my community what my IQ is." And before, I think it maybe would get encoded as the, like, aloof professor who makes mistakes, and it's like, oh no. Now, are they going to be like, "Oh, well, there's Megan Anna with her, like, you know, 115 IQ making those mistakes."
I've been realizing my own, like, okay, I do actually have a little bit of insecurity because I'm around a lot of folks who, like, if we're just talking about IQ as IQ quotient, like, who are more intelligent than me. And that's actually an insecurity I've had most of my life, but I've, like, re-got in contact with that discomfort of, I'm going to be found out for not being as smart as people perceive me to be. So, yeah, complex emotions for this series.
PATRICK CASALE: Which probably means we nailed it. I always feel like whenever we walk away from episodes or series and we're like, "Wow, that was complex, that was nuanced, that really made me get in touch with a lot of emotion or just thought processes." That I think feels like a good job in a lot of ways. Like, it was necessary for us to do. Yeah, because it wasn't on my radar to do a giftedness series, that's for sure. I don't think we thought about it until like maybe a month ago, month and a half ago, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Did it bring-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:29:39] go ahead, sorry.
MEGAN NEFF: I just asked if it brought complex emotions for you?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, and also, like to give context for those of you listening who maybe, you know, haven't followed along, I think I've also just had complex emotions from an emotional standpoint because of the space that I'm in emotionally and mentally because of the hurricane in Western North Carolina because of being displaced in various locations and still trying to, like, figure out my own stuff that's happening, you know? And then, doing the podcast, thankfully, to you, like, saying, like, "Do you need some distraction while you're doing this? Like, do you need some sense of normalcy."
And I really did, but that meant, like, a lot the first couple of episodes, I really sat there and, like, dissociated, complete trauma fugue state, where I was just like, "I don't even know where I am, honestly." So, I was just doing a lot of listening and absorbing in those episodes.
And it definitely made me reflect. I mean, I thought a lot about childhood experiences. I thought a lot about struggles that I do have, and I've also thought about things that, still to this day, at 38 come really easily or naturally to me, and just trying to hold the space of, I think it's duality there. It's like the both ands, you know? Like, just constantly reevaluating that, and thinking about that, and trying to figure out how to be a little gentler on myself about certain things. I'm really hard on myself. So, as I get emotional, this series has made me really think about that, about like, how I talk to myself, and how I treat myself, and what I expect from myself.
And I think when you go through, like, I don't know, a once enough lifetime ecological event it really makes you step back and think about, like, how you take care of yourself, and how you nurture yourself, and giving yourself some grace and self-compassion for, like, just existing. So, it's been a complex journey in these last four to five weeks.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like a complex conversation overlaps a very complex season of your life, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But no regrets.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. One thing that's interesting about you, Patrick, and I don't know why this is, maybe it's partly because we're never in someone else's brain. But for some reason, I wouldn't have guessed that you were as harsh with yourself as you are just from, like, being your friend, having conversations with you. And then, you've, like, given me some glimpses into your inner world, and, like, text threads we've shared. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Like, Damn, he's hard on himself." That sounds like my inner talk to myself. Like, I had no idea Patrick was as hard on himself.
And it's interesting, the first time I realized how hard your inner monolog, your self-talk was, I remember being surprised by that of like, "How can Patrick be that hard on himself? Like, what's he have to be negative?" Was kind of my initial response.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people feel that way on the outside looking in. You're not the first person to say that this week or the last couple weeks of like, "I didn't realize how hard you were on yourself, but it was also this, like, I wouldn't have expected that from you, because you present in such a way where, like, I think this is a little bit different, like, where you're really confident, or things don't get to you."
And I'm like, "Oh my God. Like, that could not be further from the truth." And I don't think that's what you're saying right now, but like that came up too recently, and I was like, "Oh, my God, I…"
MEGAN NEFF: No, there is something. Like, there is something there that, like, I wouldn't let things get to me. Like, there is a vibe there that I think maybe it's part of your mask, and I think that can actually be a common part of our masks is, like, I'm so affected by something that my mask is like, that rolls right off when actually it doesn't. Yeah, yeah.
But are you… Now, I'm like chasing for the through line because I've diverged a lot. It was part of the connection that some of your negative self-talk is connected to being a 2e kid and the experience [CROSSTALK 00:34:10]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally. I mean, I've talked about this a lot, I don't know, probably on this podcast and certainly elsewhere in other platforms, but like, I was, you know, single boy growing up, four sisters, childhood divorce, very traumatic divorce. I was left alone a lot. There was not a lot of attention on me, and it was only if I was exceeding expectations or excelling at things. And I learned at that age like this is how you get attention, you have to excel. Like, you have to achieve. You have to accomplish because it's the only way someone's going to pay attention to you.
And I hate that part of myself. Like, I really do. And I think that's been something I've tried to actively, like, dismantle and deconstruct for years now. And I think I've done a better job of that in present-day form, but like it's certainly led to a lot of internal struggles that I, you know, had a very hard, difficult time with, and also just character. I don't want to say flaws, but maybe, but I wasn't happy with in terms of who I was or what I cared about.
So, having really hard to reparent yourself is an interesting experience, as we've talked so much about like IFS on this podcast, and, you know, doing a lot of the family systems work and some of that stuff, it's heavy, but it's worth it.
MEGAN NEFF: It sounds lonely, is the association that I have. And I mean, in a weird turnaround way, I think that's why we started this podcast, Patrick. I think this is a area where you and I connect around workaholism, and it feels safer to be in our body when our body is in motion than when our body is still. And I want to be perceived my accomplishments, but I'm also terrified of being perceived as a human. Like, and then we were like, "Okay, let's start a podcast." Like, I don't think we consciously understood any of that was happening, but I do think that's why, like, we probably started a podcast together so that we could channel our workaholism toward a co-creative project.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that makes a ton of sense. And I can do a better job of the workaholism if I can think about, like, does this actually have an impact. Then I feel like I can be easier on myself opposed to just, like, creating or working to achieve something just to achieve it, or just to, like, you know, like, that's why I don't really care that much about the statistics of this podcast. Mine is like trying to ensure you and I eventually make money doing it.
But I think in the past, I would have cared a lot more about a lot of that stuff, but I care more about, like, the messages we receive, people just sharing that this has been life changing, life-saving, life altering, affirming. That's the stuff that matters so much more to me than anything that feels like achievement related in this regard.
MEGAN NEFF: And speaking of complexity, like both things can be true, right? Like, our work can be channeled toward really meaningful things that align with our values and the idea of going to hyper independence, productivity, achievement as a source of regulation, as a source of kind of faux connection. That can also be true. And so, this podcast can also hold the complexity of two people who have sought connection and regulation through busy achievement and having a very meaningful impact that's aligned with our values.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree. Couldn't say it better myself. But what happens if we meet each other in Belize in a month and a half and we hate each other? Do we just like publicly say on air that this is over?
MEGAN NEFF: Are you worried about that?
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I'm always worried about-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so who would hate who in this scenario? Who's more likely to hate who?
PATRICK CASALE: I'm getting sweaty. Oh, man. I don't know because you're going to see me in a very different, like, lens, in that regard. Like, I'm going to be in like host/work mode, which I guess I don't think I'm a different human, but I think I'll probably put off a different energy to some degree.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm also used to you like one-on-one or one-on-two.
PATRICK CASALE: That's true.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, one-on-two, that would be a three… A conversation with three people.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, one of those.
MEGAN NEFF: See, and this is not me being like, saying weird things because I'm super smart. This is me just saying weird things.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I don't think we're going to hate each other. You know, you just mentioned like you're worried about being perceived, social media following, whatever else. I'm always worried about being perceived. For both of us, I feel like a lot of our existence is being concerned about how we're being perceived, or reading it incorrectly, or picking up on an enormous exorbitant amount of energy on it, and putting an enormous amount of mental energy into it. And I think that's always on my mind. So, like, I think meeting, like, you in person that feels like I'm excited, I'm definitely excited. I'm also nervous.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think I've ever had, like, a connection this deep with someone I've not met in person before. Like, that will be [CROSSTALK 00:40:11]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:40:12] it's come from, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And aren't there, like, I mean, I know that this is explicit to, like, romantic, but I would think for any kind of just dynamic, aren't there, like, you're either, like, drawn to or repelled by a person's like, what's the word? It starts with a p?
PATRICK CASALE: Pheromones.
MEGAN NEFF: Pheromones. Like, and so maybe, like, in real life pheromones are like sensory opposites, and we will, like, sensory repel each other.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. And we're going to, like, know, immediately, like, or like, oh [CROSSTALK 00:40:53].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, just like, oh, being around you in real life gives me the ick, we need to go back to podcasting from across the states.
PATRICK CASALE: We have diverged mightily into…
MEGAN NEFF: From giftedness to ick and pheromones.
PATRICK CASALE: And three-person conversations, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Or two on one.
PATRICK CASALE: Stay tuned you all. Like, we will let you know in real-time. Maybe we'll even make a post like we don't like each other. I don't know what to say. Here it is. No, I hope that-
MEGAN NEFF: Will you tell me if you don't like me?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I will.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my God.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, people ask, people are like, "Will you tell me if you don't like me at one of these events?" I'm like, "But you paid to be there. Am I supposed to tell you that?" I think people can often tell. I mean, and being very honest, if you're listening and you've come to my events or you're thinking about it, I think you can tell, and I can't hide it. My business partner probably does not appreciate it about me, but it's not a secret. And I hate to say that publicly, but that's just the reality, so…
Jessica Hogan, if you're listening, I don't hate you. You don't hate me. We've cleared the air on that. That's wonderful. But, yeah, no, I think you'll be able to tell pretty quickly.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, well, that'll be an uncomfortable week if, like, we meet each other, and it's just like…
PATRICK CASALE: I don't think that's going to happen. You know, I think there's always going to be, like, awkward, weird, social moments that's just reality in these situations. You know? It's always like also we meet in the airport and I'm like, do we high five? Do we fist bump? Do I [CROSSTALK 00:42:35]-
MEGAN NEFF: We don't hug, let's clear that up.
PATRICK CASALE: We don't hug. And that's a thing for me as the host to, like, navigate with each person who has paid to come on this event. A lot of people approach me and I never know what to do. And I always look at them like this [CROSSTALK 00:42:50]-
MEGAN NEFF: You need like a retreat greeting that's, like, uniquely Patrick. And I would suggest like a fist bump, like a solid fist bump and [CROSSTALK 00:42:59]-
PATRICK CASALE: And then, you're like fist-bumping, but they're got their arms out like this, and just look at each other. And it's weird.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. No, that is weird, that is weird.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:09] good.
MEGAN NEFF: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:43:11] fist bump, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:13].
MEGAN NEFF: I just assumed that a hug would not be desired. Yeah, I will sometimes hug, but it's rare. I usually don't prefer the hug. I will also be getting off a red eye and won't have, like, slept, so I'll be zombie.
PATRICK CASALE: That's true, that's true. But anyway, stay tuned for all of this and more. I think, yeah, I've got to get ready for this meeting, actually. So, I'm [CROSSTALK 00:43:50]-
MEGAN NEFF: Transitions, transitions. Transitions are hard. So, we are wrapping up the series, and you can like, download, subscribe, do all the good stuff if you like us [CROSSTALK 00:44:02]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:44:02]
MEGAN NEFF: …you do.
PATRICK CASALE: …behind me. Just want you to know, Chris, your feedback was taken seriously. And guess what? You can now see what this painting is of. So, thank you for that.
And to everyone listening, new episodes you're out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Goodbye.
