Episode 82: Giftedness (Part 3): Deconstructing Giftedness: Life Beyond The Label [featuring Katy Higgins Lee]
Nov 28, 2024
Show Notes
Giftedness is paired with a unique cognitive and emotional makeup accompanied by many societal misconceptions. Many individuals find themselves grappling with high expectations, internalized stigma, and a constant quest for intellectual stimulation, often reconciling feelings of exceptional capability with misunderstood struggles.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, and Katy Higgins Lee, a multiply neurodivergent therapist, discuss the nuanced world of giftedness, including the intersection of giftedness, neurodivergence, and the emotional landscape that comes with it.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Understand the trauma that can arise from being labeled as gifted, and how societal misunderstandings and high expectations can lead to negative perceptions and unresolved emotional struggles.
- Explore the concept of "overexcitabilities" from the theory of positive disintegration and how recognizing these heightened sensitivities can aid in self-care and managing intellectual and sensory needs for a balanced life.
- Discover practical approaches and supportive communities that help twice exceptional (2e) individuals navigate their unique challenges, providing a sense of belonging and validation.
As you reflect on your unique journey or that of someone you care about, consider the nuances that shape your experiences and needs. Understanding and embracing these can open doors to self-acceptance and fulfilling connections.
More about Katy:
Katy Higgins Lee, MFT (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent therapist in private practice in Northern California. She is also a clinical supervisor, continuing education provider, neurodiversity advocate, unschooling parent, gardener, and writer.
- Katy’s Trainings: katyhigginslee.com/trainings
- Katy’s Groups: katyhigginslee.com/groups
- Instagram: nstagram.com/tendingpaths
- Facebook: facebook.com/katyhigginsleemft
- YouTube: youtu.be/7pMcDdfEj6A
- I Must Be BUG’N Podcast: open.spotify.com/show/3sW2KsIJ8HumxE9YgRZKFS?si=1f9748dbff9d4126
- Our Wild Minds Facebook Group: facebook.com/ourwildminds
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: The Gifted Learning Lab, Resilient Mind Counseling, & Learning Nook
The Gifted Learning Lab is all about empowering parents to raise their gifted and 2e kids with confidence and less conflict. If you’re looking for real, neurodivergent-affirming strategies, you can check out Danika’s free email mini-course on reducing power struggles at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And for those wanting a deeper dive, her coaching program, 'Support Your Intense Gifted/2e Kid,' offers hands-on support for the journey.
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
✨✨ Hurricane Relief for WNC communities:
This money will go to nonprofits who are boots on the ground. It will go to struggling individuals who do not have enough money for gas to get out, or who do not have enough money to provide their basic needs right now. Donate to Patrick's GoFundMe to help provide urgent aid for WNC communities affected by Hurricane Helene. Visit: atppod.com/wnc
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have Katy Higgins Lee, an MFT. She is a multiplying neurodivergent therapist in private practice in Northern California. She is also a clinical supervisor, continuing education provider, neurodiversity advocate, unschooling parent, gardener, and writer. And we are really excited to have you on here for our giftedness series that we're doing.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, Katy, I have admired your work for a long time. We both like Venn diagrams. And I saw your Venn diagram, which is a massive one and incredible, where you look at ADHD, autism, and giftedness. So, I'm really excited to get to have an extended conversation with you.
One way we're starting this series is just asking our guests, like, how they come into this conversation because for a lot of you, it's been a personal journey into this conversation. So, I'm going to start there of kind of what led you to this conversation around giftedness and neurodiversity? Yeah, how did you enter this conversation?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, great. So, for me, it starts when I was a kid that I was identified as gifted when I was about seven. And I ended up getting the opportunity to be in a class for three years of grade school that was, specifically, for gifted kids. And that was full-time. It wasn't like a pull-out program, it was actually full-time education. And it was an amazing experience. And then, had to go back to non-specific gifted education after that.
And let's see, then, you know, fast forward, many years, became a therapist, then had kids, started to see some traits in my kids. And because of that, started looking back into giftedness again. It was something that I'd sort of thought of like, "Oh, I was gifted when I was a kid." But was that really accurate? Because I don't feel very gifted. And what even is giftedness?
Like, I just kind of had pushed it aside until I started to see these traits in my kids, started researching it again, and started to recognize how a lot of experiences that I had related to being gifted, and a lot of even, like, struggles that I'd had related to being gifted.
So, I decided to do a training that was, specifically, on working with gifted clients in my therapy practice. And that's through InterGifted, which is a really great organization. But within that training context, I was asked if I'd considered I could be autistic also? And, at first, I completely rejected the idea, like because I didn't know anything about autism other than what I'd learned in school, which was very little. And was all in a lot of ways inaccurate or maybe just missing a lot of information.
So, I resisted it for a while, but I eventually, after researching a lot, I decided to get assessed. And also, around the same time, one of my kids, it was suggested that he could be autistic. So, there were a number of assessments that happened. And yes, turns out I'm autistic. And in that assessment, they also said, "And we think you have ADHD also." Which was another big surprise.
So, because of all that, and I was sort of like in the giftedness community, and a lot of it revolved around parenting gifted kids, but some of it is focused on what it is to be a gifted adult.
And then, I also kind of dove into the neurodiversity-affirming therapy community. And I started to see all of these ideas that were being talked about in each community that were, some really big overlaps, and then, some things that were complete opposite, especially, in the way that giftedness, autism, and ADHD were being discussed.
And so, I decided, I mean, I didn't decide, I just sort of ended up exploring this intersection of these three different ways of being neurodivergent because I do think of giftedness also as being a kind of neurodivergence. And that was how I ended up making the Venn diagram that you mentioned. That was definitely a one-time deal for me. Like, whenever people ask me if I would do another Venn diagram about something else, I always just direct them to you because just doing that one was really… And continues to be kind of overwhelming for me. Just sort of like having people contact me and want, you know, information about it, and I don't know how you do it because I have a small following, and I find that overwhelming. So, I don't know how you handle the massive following that you have.
But anyway, that's where it kind of came from, is that it was this exploration of these different opinions that people had. And more, specifically, it was that in the giftedness community, there's a lot of discussion about we don't want to misdiagnose kids as autistic or with ADHD when they're actually just gifted. And there's like so much fear around that. But because of that, a lot of people like me get missed. Like, you know, maybe our giftedness gets identified, but nothing else does. But then, within the neurodiversity-affirming therapist community, especially, there was a lot of like, "Well, giftedness doesn't exist. Giftedness isn't real."
MEGAN NEFF: Interesting.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: People would say things like, "Giftedness is just undiagnosed autism and ADHD."
MEGAN NEFF: I didn't know that was out there. So, there's an idea in the space that giftedness isn't real?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, yeah, there definitely is. There's a lot of memes I've seen, reels, various things on social media, some of those Facebook therapist groups. There's been some big arguments that erupted around this, actually. So much so that I ended up creating a separate… There's a now a separate Facebook therapist group that I created that, specifically, for therapists that work with gifted clients.
MEGAN NEFF: The label gifted is, like, you know, a unfortunate label, and so is the idea that using that label is ableist, or hierarchical, or, like, what's the thinking behind the idea that giftedness isn't real?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, I think what you just said, yeah. Like, people think that it's ableist or hierarchical. People think that it's just a functioning label. Like, I've heard people say it's similar to using the term Asperger's because… And this is the other part of it, is that there is lot of overlap that, just like with all kinds of neurodivergence, when we're neurodivergent in one way, we're very likely to be neurodivergent in other ways as well. And with things like autism and ADHD, many people have just accepted, like, yeah, that's, well, now we have, I know it took a while to get there in terms of the diagnosis process, but now, for at least 10 years, now, that's been known that it's common to, you know, if you're autistic, it's very likely that you're also an ADHDer and the reverse also.
But for some reason with giftedness, there's this belief that if you're identified as gifted, but then you get diagnosed or self-identify as autistic, or an ADHDer later in life, that that like negates the giftedness or something. People seem to think that giftedness was a mislabel is what seems to…
And I think part of it is because people look back on say, like where they were in a gifted class, and they think, "Oh, well, so many people in that class were autistic or ADHDers, so it must be everybody then."
MEGAN NEFF: Which is not true.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: It is separate.
MEGAN NEFF: So, actually, I'm going to jump in with an antidote here that was kind of an aha moment. So, I've been personally loving this series because I've been learning a lot about giftedness through it, through the folks we've been talking to, through the conversations it's led to. And I had this terrible, kind of funny aha moment.
So, in my family, I'm multiply neurodivergent, my kids are multiply neurodivergent. And we kind of tease my spouse for being this, like, boring neurotypical, like cis white guy. But I was like, "Oh my gosh, I need to stop calling you neurotypical." Because he's gifted, but he's not autistic, he's not ADHD, he has incredible executive functioning. So, he doesn't relate to the executive functioning struggles. And I've been like, it's kind of breaking my brain a little bit. And so, yes, they do exist it.
But you're right, and we've had other guests talk about that, there's a lot of overlap between gifted, and being autistic ADHD. But there also are gifted people out there who aren't autistic or ADHD.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, exactly. And for some reason, a lot of people resist that idea, yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes. And they resist the idea, yeah, I guess because it can be seen as a functioning label. And, I mean, we talked about this before we started recording. I mentioned how I opened up a conversation throughout in my community. And one thing that really struck me was there's a lot of gifted, especially, 2E adults looking for spaces where it feels safe to dive into the complexity of, like, this is a complex identity to have. Yes, there's privileges that come with it, but also, there's very real hard things. But it can feel, I would imagine…
So, I don't know if I've shared this with you, Katy, I'm actually not gifted, but I can imagine if someone is gifted and then complaining about it. It's like, it could feel like someone complaining about their privilege in a way that is just like, "Oh, no. We're not going to have that conversation." So, I just think it's a really complex conversation to have, complex conversation for adults, specifically. It can invoke a lot of emotions in ourselves, but also the people around us, as is indicative of kind of the Facebook social media conversation that you're referring to.
Why do you think this is such a complex conversation?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons. I mean, one, like you said the actual word gifted is problematic. And I-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, if you were renaming it, do you have a name that you would be like, "This is what I would name it."
KATY HIGGINS LEE: I have not figured out anything that is a better alternative. I mean, I don't like the word gifted at all, but I haven't found anything that actually is better in any way because it's similar to how I feel about autism and ADHD. Those terms are kind of crappy names in various ways. Like, the word autism, if you look at the root of it, it has to do with, like, almost implying that we're, like, self-absorbed. And then, you know, because it's like, [PH 00:13:00] autos, right?
And then, ADHD, obviously, like attention deficit, and then, even just hyperactivity disorder, right? Like, all of those words actually are problematic.
So, for all of these, I feel like there's no great terms for them. So, I often will refer to all three of them as being crappy names for real experiences. But, yeah, I haven't come up with anything that's better, and I haven't heard anybody else say anything better.
There is one author and therapist, Paula Prober, who wrote the book My Rainforest Mind. And she talks about the idea of using that term rainforest mind as an alternative for giftedness. And some people really like that term. And in certain ways, I like it, but I still don't think it's like a perfect substitution for the word gifted.
MEGAN NEFF: I like it as a metaphor, but, yeah, I don't really see it being a like, "Oh, are you a rainforest mind?" "I'm a rainforest mind."
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: So, I think the label, that's one of the problems, so just the word itself. And then, I think also because of the ways that giftedness has been misunderstood, like in the same way that autism and ADHD has been misunderstood, that many people think that giftedness means that you are really good at school and they think that's all it is. And many of us that are gifted aren't really good at school unless we have accommodations for our giftedness.
So, like, for me, the best I ever did in school was when I was in that gifted program or in graduate school because I went to a very specific school. It was experiential and very small classes. And it worked for me.
So, people think that giftedness, though, has to do with being good at school or being like high functioning or something like that. Or being high achieving in school. And that's not actually accurate because giftedness is more of like a difference in the way that we process everything as the way that, you know, just like with other kinds of neurodivergence, it's like all-encompassing, and we don't necessarily do well in school or in work environments because school and most work environments are built and designed for sort of like the majority, right? So, anyone who's like an outlier in any direction will have a hard time, and that's the case with giftedness. But a lot of people don't understand that.
And so, what happens is that a lot of kids, when they get identified as gifted, they're then given these really harmful messages like, "Oh, you have so much potential. Why aren't you living up to that potential?" Or even messages like, "We need to support gifted people because of their potential contributions to society." Things like that.
MEGAN NEFF: Just kind of like the superpower rhetoric of because you have these special abilities, therefore, we will support your disability. It's that same, like you have to be exceptional to deserve the accommodations or to deserve inclusion.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Exactly, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: That's exactly it, yeah, yeah. So, because of that, though, there's a lot of people that have trauma associated with getting identified as gifted. So, I think there's like a massive nervous system response that happens in a lot of people when they hear the word gifted because of so much trauma that happens related to the word.
MEGAN NEFF: It just sounds like a lot of pressure. As I've been listening to folks, that's definitely a theme of, like, the pressure to be like hyper independent, the pressure to be hyper achieving, the pressure to get things and not need support, not need instructions, not need to learn skills, to do well in school, to do well in career.
Clinically, in my work, what I've seen a lot is gifted folks who do pretty well in school, but then they hit the workforce and they kind of crumble. Like, the workforce is really hard. And there's this weight, but you went to this really prestigious college, or you did really well, and the disconnect between kind of high intelligence, and then, really struggling. I see that be a source of suffering and struggle for a lot of folks.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, yes, definitely. I think that is very common that, like, whether someone does well in school or doesn't do well in school there will be a struggle that comes with that at some point, especially, like another thing that is talked about, Matt Zakreski, I don't know if you know who he is. He's a psychologist-
MEGAN NEFF: We had him on last week.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Oh, great. Okay, did you talk about the performance cliff, that idea? I really-
MEGAN NEFF: He mentioned it briefly, but he didn't like go into much detail.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Okay, yeah, I just find that concept, I'm pretty sure he kind of coined that phrase, but I find that, I mean, I definitely recognized it, but having a phrase to describe it was very helpful to me. Just this idea that when you're gifted, very often, school and learning something can be a little bit quicker for us to a certain point, and then, we hit this cliff, and then we just fall off of it, and then we just do, I mean, a lot of times, like, horribly at that thing.
And so, some people, it might be like, what you're describing, like, they get all the way through school, and then, get into their career, and then have that happen. And then, for others of us, it can happen much sooner. Like, for me with math, that happened in like fifth grade. Like, I hit that. Like, I was in a gifted class, but I also needed a math tutor because things had been easy for me up to that point with math, and then, suddenly, I actually had to work at it, and I didn't know how to work at it. And that's the idea with this performance cliff is, like, because we haven't developed the capacity, or, like, the tolerance for the learning process, we don't know how to learn then. So, once we get to a point where it's not just easy, we don't know what to do, and we just sort of fall apart.
MEGAN NEFF: I could imagine that a natural response would be to shut down when you hit that.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think that's very common. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I was going to say that that was definitely my response was to shut down when things no longer came naturally or easily to me. And then, we talked about this in previous episodes, but just not having a good foundation in terms of how to apply certain things or accommodate myself because everything came so easily and so naturally. And then, as soon as I get that performance cliff it was like, "Holy shit, I really don't know how to do school, or to work, or do any of the things that had been coming so naturally in the first place." Creates this like shame spiral, and then, this really intense struggle with your sense of self as well.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, exactly, yeah. It can be very confusing, and just like with other kinds of neurodivergence, that's where I feel like having, again, these words, these labels, these concepts to understand what's happening can make such a big difference. And that's where, like, identifying giftedness at any age can be helpful if you have the right, like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, background or like the information to go with it, I guess, the right environment, the right support to go with it. But in any environment, any label of neurodivergence can be harmful or helpful depending on how much support there is to go with it.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:21:04]-
KATY HIGGINS LEE: And also, on that, oh, sorry.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, no, go ahead.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Oh, just on that point, I wanted to mention something else that, like, there are a lot of people that are gifted that don't get identified as gifted, and that's another thing that, like a lot of the clients that I've seen, actually, have been people who came to see me because they figured out they were gifted as an adult in various ways, and then, they realized that having a therapist that understood giftedness would be helpful for them.
And just that, a lot of people that didn't get identified as gifted still struggle with the same things in childhood and you know, as they're getting into adulthood, they still struggle with a lot of those same things that people that were identified as gifted struggle with. So, in that way, it just seems important to recognize that the label many people attribute their sort of like gifted trauma to the label, whereas they probably would have struggled in not the exact same ways, but very similar ways even if they hadn't had the label.
MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. So, okay, I'm curious because I feel like I have a pretty good sense of what it looks like to unpack the autism label and late-in-life identification of that. And it amazes me how there's often common themes that come with that. So, I'm curious if you've seen some themes similar with giftedness, as you're unpacking that with adults? Are there common themes that come up? Are there common, like, insights or aha moments of like with autism, like, you mean, I'm not like, broken I'm not overly sensitive? It's like there's a name for this thing. Are there some kind of core themes that you see often come up for folks when they're newly unpacking this identity?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, definitely. Let's see. I mean, some of them are understanding, again, like, some of the labels that were put on them other than gifted. So, like the labels like teacher's pet, or know it all, or things like that. Let's see, then also things like recognizing why they didn't feel satisfied in various environments. So, that could be like a relationship, or school, or a career, recognizing why it didn't work for them because sometimes people that are gifted will do well in a certain career, but be so dissatisfied that they end up leaving that career. And other people around them were like, "Why did you do that? You were making a ton of money. Like, seemed like it was working for you. You were, like, moving up in that career, why did you leave it?"
And there's this oftentimes, like, not being able to identify what is it? Why? Why did I need to leave that job? And oftentimes, it's because there wasn't enough intellectual stimulation and enough, like, complexity to what they were needing to do. And also, not having mirroring of their experience because that can be really, again, like with any kind of neurodivergence to have really any identity, right? Like, not just neurodivergence because that could be like gender, identity, or sexuality, or ethnicity, or race. Like, having that mirroring can be so important. And in various environments, gifted people won't have that. And so, then they won't feel comfortable, won't feel that mirroring, and so they'll end up feeling like they need to leave, but not understanding the reason why for that.
And that leads into another one of, like, this is similar to how people often will talk about other kinds of neurodivergence, but with giftedness, there's often a need to understand why. So, like in school or in a career when they're told, "Okay, this is the formula for doing this math problem." There's this like, "Well, but why? Like, I need to know all of the reasons why that you came to that conclusion that that's what we need to do." Or needing to understand, like, the etymology of words [CROSSTALK 00:25:26]-
MEGAN NEFF: And that can feel exasperating for the folks around the person, which then that's what gets mirrored back to them is your questions are exasperating or… And I imagine there's so many internal narratives that come on around that. Like, I'm too much, or I'm like, stressful for people to be around.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And along with that is like, just asking more questions in general. And then, the masking that can come with that, right? Like, as we talk a lot about autistic masking and even ADHD masking, but with giftedness, there's definitely masking that occurs and that's part of what a lot of clients will end up working on is not… Like, because a lot of my clients will be similar to me, like some combination of gifted, autistic, ADHD. And so, a lot of what will be worked on is exploring masking, but specifically, the giftedness masking is there too. And [CROSSTALK 00:26:18]-
MEGAN NEFF: So, I… Oh, sorry. No, go ahead.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Oh, I was just going to give an example real quick, like in school, not asking the questions as a way of masking, and pretending to not know the answer, even sometimes, when they do know the answer, using smaller words than what they actually would want to use because they don't want people to perceive them to be a certain way, and they just want to fit in with everybody else.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so I was going to ask because I used that word, I think, on one of the episodes, but I didn't know if it was a thing. But I was just like, I would imagine gifted people mask. So, I was curious, kind of, what you would conceptualize the core features. So, yeah, pretending not to know something, not commenting when you do know something, using different words. Are there other themes to gifted masking? And now I'm, like, picturing like a diagram, of course, because my brain is like…
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, yeah. Let's see, I'm trying to think of some other examples. Well, I mean, depending on the context, sometimes, when, again, it depends on if we've been labeled gifted, or if we are in certain environment… Like, being in a gifted class, for example, where we're expected to be kind of "good at everything" but we're not. And so, then, there's, in some ways, like an increased need to mask when we don't know because it's almost like it doesn't [CROSSTALK 00:27:45]-
MEGAN NEFF: I see that.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: …susceptible to ask for clarification because when we do, there's this like, "Oh, but you should know that, you're gifted, you're so smart." Or whatever you know various phrases people use.
MEGAN NEFF: That's got to be so complex. And sometimes I'm going to mask and pretend like I don't know something and in another situation is I'm going to mask and pretend I totally got this when I don't. So, you're always masking your true kind of competence in an environment, and then, therefore, your needs. I guess that's another, like, you're masking your needs. You're masking like I need support to understand this, or I need more intellectual stimulation.
I could also imagine, like, masking interest because I would think it could be common for a gifted person to be bored, especially, if they're also ADHD a lot. So, I could also imagine, kind of it being in a conversation, and masking, like, this is a really interesting conversation when, like, actually, maybe it's not. So, a lot of masking of like, kind of needs and how you're actually experiencing a moment.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yes, exactly, yeah. That's a great way to describe it. And that's one of the, like, there are all of these different definitions of giftedness, and I don't feel like any of them are perfect. And so, I often will describe giftedness in terms of needs instead because I find that, usually, it's easier for people to understand when we talk about what gifted needs are. You know, things like, like I was saying, like, need for intellectual stimulation and complexity, needing to understand the why of things, needing to ask a lot of questions, needing for it to be okay for us to not know the answers to everything, though.
In the learning process, there's a need to increase in complexity as soon as we understand a basic concept, as opposed to needing a whole bunch of repetitions for most things. Like, that's one of, I mean, again, for me, math has always been a struggle, so I did need lots of repetitions with that, and I needed one-on-one. But most other things, I needed to hear the basic concept, and then, to be able to skip ahead to something much more advanced because otherwise my attention just completely goes away and I can't focus on it, which is, you know, the intersection with the ADHD coming in too.
And I don't remember the exact number, but there's like research about how many repetitions most people need to learn a concept versus how many repetitions most gifted people need to learn a concept. And what happens is that, when the complexity doesn't increase, that oftentimes either students in school or adults in jobs will just lose interest and stop pursuing whatever the thing is. Like, I've seen that with, like, musical instruments where like if the teacher is like, "Well, I need you to learn this step by step by step." The student will be like, "Okay, I'm done." After they'd been super into the instrument. And then, they're like, "Well, this is just too boring, because you're making me go through these things that I already get it. I don't need to repeat that same exercise over and over again, because I already get that."
Which I know with instruments, there's like, you know, the physical part of it too, but in terms of understanding the, like, cognitive part of it, that we need to be able to skip ahead most of the time. But also, there has to be that understanding that sometimes we won't. So, it can be very confusing because of those times when we don't need to skip ahead, we need to actually go step by step. And that's because of the asynchronous development or the, like, spiky profiles that we often have.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. As you're talking, one thing that's hitting me is, like, how difficult it would be to regulate attention, especially, in a traditional classroom as, especially, a gifted ADHD student because I would imagine, you know, there is a lot of repetition in school, or there's a lot of, like, you know, waiting. Just being in a classroom, you're often just waiting for things. And to know, like, when can I check in and when can I check out? Because I would think there's a lot of periods where you can pretty much check out, like, if there's a lot of repetitions happening. But then, there might be a critical part where it's actually really important to check in because they're teaching a skill that you don't yet have.
So, I'm just thinking about how difficult that would be to gage, like, attention really of is this a time where I'm checking out to entertain myself with my own ideas because I'm bored, or where I'm checking in because I need the instruction and the support?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yes, absolutely, yeah. I think that you described that really well. And then, that can also happen in other environments, also, like in a job, or even in a social situation, where, like, like a group conversation. And if the conversation goes to something that is like small talk, which I know it's not just gifted people that don't like small talk, right? Like, that's talked about a lot within other neurodivergent communities. But when that happens, or when someone's talking about something that to them seems just like, again, there isn't much complexity to it, that there's a tendency then, or there can be to kind of, like, check out and, like, go do something else, either actually walking away, or just letting their mind go somewhere else.
And that's where there are people that are gifted, but they get misdiagnosed as ADHD. Like that does happen, you know? But oftentimes, it's that we're actually both and so, you know, there's like an interplay that happens there.
MEGAN NEFF: I remember that in my training, kind of, looking at profiles in some of my assessment classes. And it was like, this is why this person would look ADHD because they're gifted, because they're like, yeah, they're getting bored, they're tuning out. But also, maybe it's both.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah. One thing I wanted to mention because you mentioned how in your community people were asking about spaces, like safe spaces for being able to discuss giftedness. And there are some cool spaces that have kind of come about like Facebook groups that are, specifically, for people that are gifted. I personally prefer the ones that specify that they're for like gifted and 2E. And you probably in previous episodes defined 2E, but I'm just going to do it anyway, just in case, like you know? 2E is twice-exceptional, which is gifted plus disabled.
Some people will be more specific and say gifted plus like a learning disability or like some people will even be more specific and say gifted plus autistic or gifted plus ADHD. But I really prefer to be more inclusive of all disabilities, so including physical disabilities because that, I think, is really important to recognize what that looks like for people when they have a physical disability, and then, they're gifted, so they're in, say, like, you know, special education program at school, but they're also gifted, and how that gets navigated.
MEGAN NEFF: That's something Dr. Mike brought up, is that that's a population that often goes underrecognized. People with physical disabilities often get under-recognized as gifted, which I thought was really interesting, and also makes intuitive sense as to why that might be happening.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah. I prefer the communities that specifically specify that they like, you know, they're looking at twice-exceptionality and giftedness within the community.
But like I mentioned before, InterGifted is an organization, and they have a community that I really appreciate. And again, part of the reason I appreciate it is because they're very aware of other kinds of neurodivergence also. And then, specifically, for people that are black and gifted, there's a community that's Our Wild Minds that seems pretty cool. I'm not black, but people that I know that are in that group have said how it's been really supportive to be able to have a group where they can have, you know, their race and their giftedness mirrored, and to get that community.
And then, the other thing I wanted to mention, too, as a resource is the podcast I Must Be Bugging. I don't know if you know that podcast?
MEGAN NEFF: No, but I love the name. [CROSSTALK 00:36:13]-
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, totally, yeah. And, again, specifically, it's like, geared towards people that are black and gifted, but also, just neurodivergent in other ways, also.
MEGAN NEFF: That's fantastic. Thank you for those. Yeah, we'll provide links to that. I love resource curation. So, those all sound like very fantastic resources. Yeah, thank you.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, no problem.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, I'm trying to figure out where to go in our conversation because I, like, can tell there's some a wealth of information. And, well, okay, here's one, boredom that came up as a question around both boredom and selfcare. I'll maybe put those together because I think that can be, like, how, kind of the idea of giftedness and overexcitabilities. And we know from past conversations the idea of overexcitabilities that also has mixed views. But how boredom factors into the experience of being gifted. But then, also, like, how, if you've noticed, like, does self-care differ in how gifted people maybe need to approach that?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, totally. Okay, so where to start with that. So, I'm glad you brought up overexcitabilities because I like that model, but I don't like associating it, specifically, with giftedness. So, the way I see it is that overexcitabilities are something that neurodivergent people, in general, experience. And I feel like I should explain what overexcitabilities are too, like [CROSSTALK 00:37:49]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, if you want to offer a brief explanation of that. Okay, that'd be fantastic.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Okay, cool. So, overexcitabilities is a term that is one part of the theory of positive disintegration. And the theory of positive disintegration was something that was proposed and kind of, like, theorized by Kazimierz Dabrowski, who was a Polish psychiatrist and psychologist 1900s. Like, I think he died somewhere around the 80s or 90s. I don't remember exactly.
But he had this theory that I'm a little bit obsessed with. I hesitate to use the word obsessed because I always think about OCD and don't want to use the word obsessed. So, I'm not going to say obsessed. So, I'm not going to say obsessed. It's one of my special interests, I should say, it's a better way to describe it.
So, theory of positive disintegration is this theory, it's this idea that certain people go through these transformations at different points in their life. And not everybody goes through these,but they are these processes where there's this, like, breaking down of parts of ourselves, this like disintegration that happens, but it's in service of, like, a reforming, or a reintegrating in kind of a different form. Kind of, the metaphor I like is like a Lego house, where you have this Lego house and then you, like, take it all apart, and then, put it back together in a new way. And you might put some pieces in that weren't there before, and you might remove some pieces. But it's this big transformational process that can happen.
And it can look like a mental health crisis. And it actually can be a mental health crisis for some people. But if you have the right support, it's possible to come through it and have it be a source of growth and transformation.
So, overexcitabilities, where that comes in is that Dabrowski said that people who possess overexcitabilities are more likely to go through this process of transformation. And overexcitabilities are an increased, like, sensitivity and intensity in five areas of experience. And those five areas are imaginational, emotional, psychomotor, sensual, wait, did I miss one? Oh, and intellectual, that's the fifth one.
And so, if you think about it, people who are autistic, and ADHDers, and gifted, and even like OCD, and some other kinds of neurodivergence even are more likely to have these overexcitabilities.
So, the reason, though, that this has been tied to giftedness was in like the 90s there was this movement in gifted education of people believing that overexcitabilities equaled to giftedness, and they didn't look at it as being related to autism, or ADHD, or anything else. And so, people even would like diagnose or not diagnose, they would identify giftedness based on having overexcitabilities.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yikes.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: It seems like a really good way to miss a lot of autistic and ADHD people.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Exactly. That's exactly it. And that's the problem with that. So, that was the belief for a long time, though, was that Dabrowski was talking about gifted people even though he didn't use that word, as far as I know.
More recently, though, there have been some translations of some of his work from Polish that make it pretty clear that he was actually describing autism, and ADHD, and other kinds of neurodivergence, and giftedness. But that is not as well known yet because it's like brand new. There's only been a couple of papers written on it so far.
So, all of that is to explain overexcitabilities. And I do think overexcitabilities can be useful, though, and I use them in my work with clients, in exploring needs, and like, like you're saying, like preventing boredom, and like, just meeting the needs that we have for giftedness. But also, for autism and ADHD.
So, looking at, for each individual, which areas do we have overexcitabilities? For some people, they have all five. Some people will just have one or two. And looking at these areas as like areas of needs. So, like, a need for input in these areas, but also, increased sensitivity in these areas. So, in the same way that, like, with sensory needs for being autistic we have to avoid certain sensory input, but we also really need certain sensory input in order to tend to our nervous systems and just our, kind of, systems in general.
So, I think of it that way with all of these areas, though, so sensual kind of corresponds with sensory. But then in terms of intellectual, imaginational, psychomotor, I don't know which one I missed right there, it's always hard to remember to say all five when I say them.
MEGAN NEFF: It's a mouthful.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, but basically, like we have needs for input in those areas if we have an overexcitability. And so, I find that helpful to look at when we're feeling under-stimulated, to look at which areas are we not getting enough input in? And so, like, with different jobs, even.
So, like for me as a therapist, my sensory needs get met much more now that I know that I'm autistic because I can stim. Like, I have my Koosh ball here that I'm like stimming with as I sit here. But like psychomotor, like my need for movement, I get a little bit of it, but not quite enough being a therapist, but I definitely get my other needs met, like emotional, and imaginational, and intellectual, I definitely do. But it also depends on what's happening in the therapy.
So, like, for me personally, there have been times where I was trying to do kinds of therapy, like earlier in my career that definitely didn't meet my intellectual needs or my imaginational needs. And so, that made it much more difficult for me to, like, show up in my work. So, that's the way that I like to look at it, is to make sure that we're getting, like, figure out which overexcitabilities we have, and then make sure that we're getting our input in those areas. And, again, also, avoiding things that might be overwhelming in those various areas.
And then, the last thing I want to say, too, is that there's those five overexcitabilities, but some people talk about a sixth being like existential. And that's a really big one for people that are gifted, that that's a lot of like, when gifted clients come to therapy, a lot of what they're needing is mirroring and support for their existential needs that they are not getting in their daily life.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think I've heard that before, existential needs. I love that. I always talk about, like, being existential or having lots of existential questions. But I love that idea of like, I have existential needs. And I think that makes sense, that that would be one way of adopting therapy would be being able to mirror that those questions are valid and also a place to have those existential needs met. That's really powerful.
So, I really love how you connected overexcitabilities to self-care. So, someone who works for me, I love this metaphor. She's very creative. She's an artist. And something that she shared once was that she sees her overexcitabilities as like these little pets, and she has to feed them each day, and if she doesn't feed them, then, like she feels it, she's struggling.
But I love that idea of like these overexcitabilities as these, like, cute little pets that we feed, and we nurture, and we care for, and that's how we care for ourselves.
And you're right. Sometimes that means also, like with sensory stuff, that's tricky. It's like less of that sensory input, but more of that sensory input. But I definitely feel that too, and that's interesting about the origin of overexcitabilities because I would say I relate to overexcitabilities more so than my spouse, me being autistic ADHD, but not gifted, and my spouse being gifted, but not autistic or ADHD. So, I like how you're teasing that out, and that makes more intuitive sense to me because I'm like, wait, overexcitability is like, I've got all of those. And so, I like rotting in that as a framework. And I just think it could be helpful for a lot of neurodivergent folks who are gifted, but also, those of us who aren't gifted.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, exactly. Yeah, and I love that, what you just named, that idea of like overexcitabilities as like pets that need to be fed, that is beautiful. I really like that. Yeah, yeah.
And one of the things, like, that I find helpful about this too, is that, again, these positive disintegration processes that we're more likely to go through, that often will happen when we get identified as neurodivergent in adulthood, especially, that's how I've seen it. So, I've seen it happen, and I experienced it with my autism and ADHD diagnosis, but I've seen it happen for clients with a giftedness identification in adulthood too. Like, that process of learning that new information about themselves will catapult them into this process that, like, in the end, ends up to be, most of the time very positive, but there's this, like, really intense process that they'll go through in order to get there of like just struggling with, like, who they are and what their identity is. And so, understanding the positive disintegration process and overexcitabilities within that I find really useful, like, in combination.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness. I love that. I'm having so many associations right now because I say it in a much more clumsy way. But I often talk about how, like, once you have this identity discovery, and we've talked about in other episodes how it could be a queer discovery identity, or it could be an autism one, how it kind of opens the door. And I say it's like all identities are back on the table for exploration. And I love the framework of to integrate we have to disintegrate. So, that's such a helpful framework for the late-in-life identity discovery, whatever the identity is, is that it often leads to a season of disintegration, which can feel really ungrounded. It can feel really destabilizing. I know I bumped up my therapy to twice weekly during that first nine months a year of discovery because there was so much I was processing. And that is such a helpful framework for that season. Thank you for that.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, totally, totally. That's been something that I've been really, like, wanting to share. I've been sharing about it for a number of years now, since I went through it. And I mean, and I still continue to go through it, because that's the thing, is, it's not like we go through it and then we're just done. Like, there can be these, like, mini disintegrations that can happen over time.
But I presented on that at… There's a conference on Dabrowski and on positive disintegration. So, I presented on that concept in July. And that video will be available, I'm pretty sure, in January on YouTube to watch where I talk about this in a little more depth of kind of like specific aspects of positive disintegration process and how they fit within, like, discovery or identification of neurodivergence later in life.
MEGAN NEFF: I am so excited to, like, find that and watch that. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I love that as a framework. That's so helpful. I've been saying for a while, like, we need identity frameworks for neurodivergence in general, but also the discovery process. I feel like you're building a really solid framework there.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Thanks. Yeah. Also, I know we only have a few more minutes, but I just wanted to say that, like, another way to frame it is through like a hero's journey process. I find useful, also. Like, for some people, that's easier to understand just the hero's journey being the like structure of the story that so many, or pretty much all stories in all cultures follow, that that process being like a psychological process, and that the discovery of neurodivergence can also fit within that process. That was another diagram that I created, one of the diagrams, too. So, I can…
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry, just in talking to you, I can tell why gifted clients would appreciate you. Like, you have so much rich theory and ideation that you bring to the experience. And I think that is part of what can be so helpful for gifted folks and neurodivergent folks in therapy is that kind of co-creating of metaphor and building of language that's sophisticated, and interesting, and helpful.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Right, right, yeah, thank you.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I feel like I could… The phrase pick your brain is always just so weird to be because I think in visuals, and I then have a visual of, like, actually picking your brain. But I feel like I could pick your brain, but not literally for so long. But I also know that you've got to head out here.
I know that you have some offerings. Like, I think I saw that you have some CE trainings even on your website. Where can folks find you? Are there kind of resources you have to share with people?
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Yeah, totally. Thank you for asking. Yeah. So, my website is just my name, katyhigginslee.com. And Katy is spelled with a Y, so K-A-T-Y.
And there I do have a link to a continuing education course for therapists. The one that I have right now is, specifically, on working with autistic clients. It's a five-hour on-demand continuing education course. I probably at some point will do a training on giftedness, but I usually just recommend people go to InterGifted because their training is really great. It's really in-depth, though. It's like a six-month training. And a little pricey for some people. I mean, it was totally worth it to me, but I think it's not accessible for some people. And so, at some point, I will probably do like a shorter couple-hour course on giftedness. But my website would be the place to find that. And you could also get on my mailing list to find out about that whenever I offer it.
And then, also, most likely, in January, will be offering a group for therapists, for neurodivergent therapists, specifically, and it would be an authentic movement group. And I won't go into that right now, what authentic movement is, but it's a movement practice. It can be done as a therapy, but it also can be done just as a practice, in a non-therapeutic way, which is what I'm planning to do for this group. So again, my website will have information about that.
And then, just social media that I am pending paths on Instagram, and Facebook, and TikTok, although I very rarely post on TikTok anymore, but mainly Instagram is the main place to find me.
MEGAN NEFF: Fantastic. And, yeah, we'll provide links for all of that in the show notes. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I was just going to say what you were saying. And my thoughts were coming out of my mouth as you had already said then, so I was just like, that's how slow-moving my brain is right now. But I really appreciate this conversation, Katy because I learned a lot, and I've really enjoyed this series quite a bit, Megan. So, thanks for encouraging it for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. And I know you are very busy, so thank you for the generosity of your time with us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm a fan of your podcast and your work, in general. So, I'm honored to be invited. So, thank you very much.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, when I mentioned I opened that thread in my community, and people were sharing a lot of stuff, and people kept referencing you. And I was like, "Oh, don't worry. Like she's coming on our podcast."
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Oh, good.
PATRICK CASALE: And folks were really excited.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Oh, that's great.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I know that your work is really having an impact out there. And, yeah, I really appreciate what you bring to the conversation.
KATY HIGGINS LEE: Thank you. I appreciate that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, thank you so much. It's going to come out in a couple weeks. So, everyone listening, be prepared. We have this episode coming out. And Katy, we'll send this to you too, share it on your Instagram and share it around. And thank you so much for coming on and making the time, and really, really appreciate you fitting into this very small window that we offered you. And to everyone-
MEGAN NEFF: I know we're supposed to say, oh… I know Patrick's moving slow, and I'm like, I'm going to do the sign-off.
PATRICK CASALE: Please do. I always love what you do because then we can…
MEGAN NEFF: If you like this podcast, go like it, that helps. And we're on YouTube. Yeah, I think Patrick you should do it.
PATRICK CASALE: Perfect. Yeah, so, mirroring what Megan Anna just said, if you like this podcast, we think you should like it and find it on YouTube and all major podcast platforms on Fridays. Thanks, goodbye.
