Episode 80: Giftedness (Part 1): Defining Giftedness: Beyond High IQs [featuring Emily Kircher-Morris]
Nov 15, 2024
Show Notes
There are many stereotypes about giftedness, what it really means, and the connection it might have to neurodivergent traits related to autism or ADHD, but it’s actually a much more complex and nuanced label.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, and Emily Kircher-Morris, a Licensed Professional Counselor with a rich background in both education and mental health, discuss the multifaceted world of giftedness and neurodivergence, unraveling the intricate layers of IQ, societal expectations, and the personal journeys that shape the lives of gifted individuals.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Dive into an enlightening discussion on the evolving definitions of giftedness and twice-exceptionality, and discover how universal screening in education can help identify students from marginalized backgrounds.
- Gain insights into the social and emotional struggles unique to gifted individuals, including the pressures of perfectionism and the challenges of making social connections.
- Learn about the theory of overexcitabilities and how sensitivities in gifted individuals relate to their cognitive and emotional experiences, shedding light on the biological and environmental factors that play a role.
Reflect on the importance of creating environments that support neurodivergent traits, challenge societal norms linking productivity to self-worth, and advocate for systemic changes that nurture the unique qualities of gifted individuals.
More about Emily:
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC, is the host of The Neurodiversity Podcast, which explores the psychological, educational, and social needs for enriching the lives of neurodivergent people. She is the author of several books for parents and educators related to the development of children and teens who are neurodivergent and cognitively gifted. She started her career in education and now works as a mental health counselor in private practice outside of St. Louis, Missouri, specializing in supporting neurodivergent, twice-exceptional, and gifted people of all ages.
- The Neurodiversity Podcast: neurodiversitypodcast.com
- Neurodiversity University: neurodiversity.university
- Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools: Transforming Practices So All Students Feel Accepted and Supported: amazon.com/Neurodiversity-Affirming-Schools-Transforming-Practices-Supported/dp/B0D81QWSX8
- Teaching Twice-Exceptional Learners in Today’s Classroom: freespirit.com/teaching-strategies-and-professional-development/teaching-twice-exceptional-learners-in-todays-classroom-emily-kircher-morris-2e-learners
- Twitter: twitter.com/EmilyKM_LPC
- Facebook: facebook.com/EmilyKircherMorris
- Podcast Facebook Page: facebook.com/NeurodiversityPodcast
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: The Gifted Learning Lab, Resilient Mind Counseling, & Learning Nook
The Gifted Learning Lab is all about empowering parents to raise their gifted and 2e kids with confidence and less conflict. If you’re looking for real, neurodivergent-affirming strategies, you can check out Danika’s free email mini-course on reducing power struggles at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And for those wanting a deeper dive, her coaching program, 'Support Your Intense Gifted/2e Kid,' offers hands-on support for the journey.
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
✨✨ Hurricane Relief for WNC communities:
This money will go to nonprofits who are boots on the ground. It will go to struggling individuals who do not have enough money for gas to get out, or who do not have enough money to provide their basic needs right now. Donate to Patrick's GoFundMe to help provide urgent aid for WNC communities affected by Hurricane Helene. Visit: atppod.com/wnc
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Megan and I are joined today by Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC, is the host of The Neurodiversity Podcast, which explores the psychological, educational, and social needs for enriching the lives of neurodivergent people. She is the author of several books for parents and educators related to the development of children and teens who are neurodivergent and cognitively gifted. She started her career in education and now works as a mental health counselor in private practice outside of St Louis, Missouri. And she specializes in neurodivergent twice-exceptional and gifted people of all ages.
Emily, thanks for being on here and starting us off with this series.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, we are starting a new series on giftedness. And I can't think of a better guest to have us on, that's an interesting flip, to have on our podcast, to help us kind of define some of the language, get the lay of the land because I've seen giftedness talked about a lot, and talked about, you know, is this a form a neurodivergence? There's a lot of questions around it.
So, I guess, to start us off, can we just get some anchoring concepts on the table? Like, I'm curious, I've seen a few different definitions of giftedness. Like, how do you define giftedness? Do you conceptualize this as a form of neurodivergence?
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, well, I guess, let me ask you this. So, are intellectual disabilities a type of neurodivergence?
MEGAN NEFF: I think so. I mean, yes. I think so, in the sense of, if we think about the bell curve, and then, if you're diverging from normative in a significant way then, yes, absolutely.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah. So, if that's the case, then I would argue that cognitive giftedness is also a type of neurodivergence. It's just on the other end of that bell curve.
So, I came from the education, you know, world, like Patrick mentioned in the intro. And I started out, I was a classroom teacher, and then I taught in gifted ed programs. And so, when I entered the mental health field, that was kind of my background where I came from. And even throughout the 20-plus years that I've been doing this, my understanding of giftedness really has evolved. And I think that there's a lot of different ways that things have shifted just as part of the neurodiversity movement.
MEGAN NEFF: Sure.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, when we talk about giftedness, I think what most people think about is they think of an IQ test. Like, you know, you say you've got the Weschler tests, you know, the Scales, or the Stanford-Binet, which is old and outdated, but it's around. You know, there's some others that schools use. And primarily, they think about education because it's an identification that is used in the school setting. However, it's not a clinical label, in the way that you-
MEGAN NEFF: Right. Like, I would never diagnose someone with a like gift, yeah. It's, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Right, right.
MEGAN NEFF: I think that's a [CROSSTALK 00:05:28]-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Although, you might recognize that as part of their profile.
MEGAN NEFF: When I do an IQ test I might say your IQ is in this range. Right, absolutely.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, what's interesting is there's not really an agreed upon cut off score if that's the only criteria that we're looking at. So, depending on who you're talking to, some people would say the top 10% of ability in cognitive scores. Some people would say top 5%. Some people would say it's top two, you know? And so, that kind of varies from place to place, but there really is no agreed-upon cut score, specifically, there. And for what it's worth, that's probably best because a score on one test is very difficult to really define what somebody's overall ability is. So, that's one way to conceptualize this.
It is also often associated with performance. So, academic performance. But when you dig into that a little bit deeper, there are many people who are very intelligent, who are very bright, who don't perform academically, you know, very well.
And so, you know, when we're trying to figure out, you know, what does this really mean? There are some certain strengths that we often see with people who kind of qualify under that cognitively gifted piece. And it has to do with problem-solving, abstract reasoning, often language, you know, skills as far as communication. And just like other types of neurodivergence, you can actually look from a neurobiological perspective and see differences in the brain.
So, for example, brain volume, literally, is correlated with increased IQ scores. And so, bigger brains, you know, it has to do with more ability in that area. But it's also complicated by external pieces.
So, there's a study that was released recently that talks about how they can actually predict IQ at age 18 by doing MRI studies at something like six months, 18 months, and three years. They kind of did this [CROSSTALK 00:07:49]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: …predictive. And it has to do with the theta brain waves. And specifically, for theta brain waves, the slower they are, they are associated with a higher cognitive score. And that has to do with your stress levels.
Well, you know, one of the things that increases the theta brain waves in your brain is trauma, for example. But that is also then correlated with reduced cognitive scores. So, you know, it is neurobiological in origin, in many ways, but is definitely impacted environmentally.
MEGAN NEFF: By environment, yeah, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: And so, it's kind of one of these both and situations.
MEGAN NEFF: But there's, obviously, a genetic component, but also, the environment will play in. It's really interesting. It's really interesting.
Yeah, I appreciate you walking us through that. I think my confusion has been, so I come from, you know, the psychological tradition, so definitely have administered many IQ tests. And I definitely, even though IQ tests, I feel like it's important disclaimer, IQ tests, like we know that there are some bias around any of these tests, but especially, there's a lot of groups that these don't capture intellect well. But that is the framework I'm coming from. So, like, I've always thought, like, okay, I've heard different cut offs, whether it's an IQ of 140 or 150. And so, I'm not gifted, which is interesting because my kids are both gifted and my spouse is gifted, but I'm not. [CROSSTALK 00:09:22]-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Let me throw out a statistic.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, for what it's worth, research shows that people tend to find partners who have an IQ score within about a 10-point range of their own.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I punched up then because my spouse's IQ is like, I think 140, 145. And I've got a 115 I'm working with. But partly, my working memory, and my processing speed brings it all down. So, yeah, I married up.
PATRICK CASALE: My wife is going to love hearing this because I think my IQ test registered at like 148 when I did it. So, she's going to really love that. And I would imagine that. And I've said this to Megan before, like, if we're using cut off as just IQ, I always feel like I'm punching up above my weight with Megan on this podcast. So, like, it's really interesting when we stop just using the IQ demarcation to determine that.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Right. Yeah, I think-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, go ahead.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Oh, I was just going to agree with in recognizing that, like, here's something that's interesting. So, how many IQ tests do people usually take in their lifetime? Maybe one, maybe a couple, perhaps, if they're being assessed. Usually, it's when they're in school, if you're looking for a specific learning disability, you know, or if they go through a psych assessment of some type. But usually, many people don't ever take an IQ test.
What's interesting about those really high scores, so, Patrick, for what it's worth, so when I was tested in school mine was probably right around that same range where yours is at that time. But you know how we talk about that Flynn effect, which is that regression towards the mean, which to many people out there who are listening, they're probably going, "I have no idea what that is." That's okay. Here's the best way to explain it. Basically, what they say is, when you have somebody who tests in any particular area and they are an outlier, very, very high or very, very low, what you would expect if they are retested is that that score would regress towards the mean or the average, so it'll come down.
So, it's kind of like saying when I went and took my IQ test when I was in second grade and I scored 147 or whatever, it's like hitting a hole in one. The next time you would take that test, if you would take it again, it would be very unlikely that I would hit that hole-in-one again. And so, my score would probably be closer to the mean.
And so, when we're talking about any of these scores, it's kind of this very vague, ambiguous thing in many ways.
And the other thing I will say is that there are 1,000,001 reasons why somebody does poorly on a test like this, you know? And so, you have to take all of it with a grain of salt. You know, the gifted ed world, it's interesting, has evolved so much. So, we talk about those inequities and those different groups that we have in different populations, specifically. Gifted ed really has been grappling with this.
So, I was actually diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid, before Asperger's was even added to the DSM. I was never assessed for it. But I was also gifted. But the only reason I had either one of those things is because my mom advocated for me. She was a special education teacher, and she knew. So, back, you know, in the early 90s, when I was given that ADHD diagnosis, that was pretty rare.
But typically, the way that you were identified for gifted ed services was that the teachers nominated you. They said, "Yeah, this student seems really smart." Well, who are they going to nominate? They're going to nominate the compliant, highly verbal kids who get all their work turned in on time, and usually, kids who are, you know, part of the, not marginalized, right? Like, so when you have those groups that are marginalized, we have that implicit bias, we have all of these different pieces that influence us as teachers.
So, what gifted ed did was they came up with the idea of universal screening, meaning that you don't just test the kids that the teachers say to test at several different grade levels, maybe first grade and third grade or whatever. You test everybody in the grade level, looking for the opportunities to find those kids.
And what ended up happening is, first of all, it did definitely increase the number of students from marginalized backgrounds who were identified. And in the process, although, this wasn't the goal, it also increased the number of twice-exceptional people that we were identifying. So, twice-exceptional is this term that refers to somebody who is both cognitively gifted and has another diagnosis layered on top of that like autism, like ADHD, like dyslexia, all of these other pieces there.
And so, all of a sudden you have these kids who are not necessarily the compliant academic achievers who are being identified. But you know, it's interesting as adults, depending on what career you choose, you know, you tend to find people with some level similar abilities, right? Like, depending on where you end up as far as your career goes just because different levels of ability offer opportunities to succeed in various areas. And so, sometimes people don't always realize what a wide range there really can be in that overall ability.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I love how you broke that down, and also, I didn't realize that's how 2E became more commonly identified. I've been hearing more and more conversations around 2E.
So, one question, and then, we can move on because there's some other things I'm excited to ask you about. But I think some of my confusion has been, and I think mostly on social media. But I'm seeing the term of giftedness expand to be, it feels like more personality. Like, if you're really curious, if you're existential. And I think those are traits that often are common for those with very high IQs, but that's like, if I looked at, you know, a list of traits, I'd be like, "Oh yeah, I'm gifted. I have these personality traits." But I don't have the same shared experience of… I've worked with gifted clients. I know there's a different experience that I don't have.
So, I'm curious, especially, because you are coming from education, what do you think of this? Are you seeing that too, this kind of more diffuse term being used around giftedness? And what do you make of that? Because it's confusing me.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, here's the thing. I come from the gifted ed world, and I might say some things that might be counter what some people think or believe. And for what it's worth-
MEGAN NEFF: And just as a blanket statement, like so much is evolving in our world right now that, like, I'll say something maybe that I said last year that I'm like, "Wow, I would say that so differently this year." So, just, I think blanket statement to our listeners. Like, we are evolving. The language we use is evolving. So, absolutely.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah. And we want to embrace that. And in the gifted ed world, the gifted ed world is a very small bubble. Actually, you know, Megan, you were just on the podcast last week, and we were kind of chatting about this a little bit. And you're like, "Oh yeah, we're going to have this guest, this guest." It's like, I knew all of their names because it's just a small… I knew exactly who they were.
And so, it's just a small world. But sometimes what happens when you have that bubble is you get into a little bit of an echo chamber. And one of the ideas that really caught on in the gifted ed world is this idea about the theory of overexcitabilities. So, this comes from, you know…
MEGAN NEFF: Dabrowski.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yes, I know. I'm [CROSSTALK 00:16:56]-
MEGAN NEFF: …starts with a D and I can't pronounce it, but I just learned this idea and I really like it.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Kazimierz Dabrowski.
MEGAN NEFF: Dabrowski, there we go, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: And the theory of overexcitability, specifically, is actually the theory of positive disintegration and overexcitability.
So, without getting into the whole theory, one of the areas that is really caught on within the gifted ed world is this theory of overexcitability. So, there are these five areas that they talk about where gifted individuals have increased sensitivity in these particular areas. So, intellectual ability, or curiosity, basically, intellectual intensity, emotional intensity, imaginational intensity, psychomotor intensity. So, like movement. And then, the last one is, it's translated from Polish. It's called sensual, but really means sensory intensity.
Well, so this has been used to explain some of those qualitative traits of giftedness. Like the existential piece that you're describing can come from, you know, kind of that intellectual curiosity piece. But the research is very, very mixed.
So, one thing that they do for sure know is that gifted individuals do tend to have mild to moderate increased sensory sensitivities. So, hypersensitivity. And in my mind, that has to do with, like, how your brain is wired, how you're interpreting information. But it should not be debilitating. You know, it's not something that's causing really, you know, distress, like you would see with somebody who really has, you know, like a sensory processing.
MEGAN NEFF: Like who's autistic, yes, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Exactly. And, you know, it's interesting to figure out, like, why that caught on so much? Because…
MEGAN NEFF: Probably because it wasn't an IQ. And so, it was like, we could talk about the human and not just this number, which is also so, like, I think even people who are gifted have a hard time talking about it because it's like, this is a weird thing to acknowledge about myself. Am I like stroking my ego if I say I'm gifted? So, it makes so much sense to me [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:11]. It's like, oh, I can talk about how I'm overexcitable, and the struggles that come with that without sounding like I'm complaining about having a high IQ.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Right, right, exactly. And I think in some ways, it's also been used to justify advocacy for gifted ed services in the schools. Like, oh, they have to have this. But what I really have found is, ultimately, there is so much variability with anybody who is gifted. And you can't really find… like some people will check those boxes.
But I also think, for what it's worth, the gifted ed world has a history of being pretty ableist. And, you know, a lot of those traits that I just mentioned, emotional intensity, sensory sensitivities, psychomotor intensity, okay, well, what does that really sound like? Emotional regulation, difficulties, right? You know, sensory sensitivities, obviously, like with the hypo or the hypersensitivity and hyperactivity, is the psychomotor piece, right? Like, where I have to be in motion.
Okay, so what is the possibility that somebody who has an outlying score on their overall ability might be an outlier in other areas as well, and so they might also be ADHD or be autistic. And what often has happened is that people have like to explain those things away. "Oh no, no, no, they cannot be autistic. They're just gifted quirky." Right? Those sensory sensitivities are part of their [CROSSTALK 00:20:45]-
MEGAN NEFF: It's part of their overexcitability. It's kind of like HSP but for giftedness. it's like, let's repackage these traits.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yes, yes.
MEGAN NEFF: And it's more palpable, okay.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Absolutely. And for what it's worth, if you look at those five areas of overexcitability, they actually align quite well with the Big Five personality model.
MEGAN NEFF: I noticed that because I love the Big Five. I used to do some Big Five research.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, absolutely. And it's fascinating. I remember one time, this is actually probably the moment that my little gifted ed bubble got popped, where I was like, no longer aware of, like, how things were so insulated. I was doing a presentation to a group of psychologists about giftedness, and I was talking about the overexcitabilities. And somebody said, "Oh, well, that sounds like the Big Five personality model." I literally had not heard of it.
And then, I go through and do research, I'm like, oh, I felt really embarrassed that this question was asked and I really didn't understand that. But when we talk about that ableist history, we talk about this overlap of twice-exceptionality, one of the most fascinating statistics that, like, it's so impactful, and I think we just don't realize it is that of individuals who are identified as autistic, they are one and a half times more likely than the general population, also, to have intelligence in the superior range, meaning that they're more likely to be gifted.
So, when you have, for example, a group of just people versus a group of people who are identified as gifted, you're going to have more autistic people in that gifted group. And I think that, gosh, there's a lot of overlap there. You know, and I don't know, I often am so curious, because when you look at some of the neurobiological traits of autism compared to giftedness, a lot of is like about that hyper-connectivity, you know, the different ways that the brain is wired. And there's a lot of similarities there.
And I often think that sometimes the further you are outside of the norm. So, you know, like somebody who has an IQ of 125, 130, might be identified as gifted in the schools, and they might be able to operate in the world look pretty normal, I guess, for lack of a better way to phrase that, regardless of masking or whatever else that might be. But the further up you get, 135, 140, 150, there's a lot of overlap there. And I'm so curious to figure out, like, as the size goes forward, how much of a difference is there? Is it just about how it manifests and how it shows up in the world? Is it just about which traits come to the surface and how disabling some of those traits might be? But you know, it's really interesting to see how that overlap really impacts people.
MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. Yeah, and so I remember learning in my training, and when I learned this, it was in a comprehensive assessment classes of a kind of like a caution to not misdiagnose autism. The idea that I remember learning is that, like, if someone is gifted, if someone has a high IQ, they tend to have more autistic traits, which we don't have good language. We're talking about that yet, someone who, like, has more autistic traits than the average person, but doesn't meet full criteria of autism.
But that was really interesting to me, too, and also just kind of made sense, I think, because I don't know how you feel about the term gifted, I think gifted is kind of an unfortunate name.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: 100%.
MEGAN NEFF: The struggles of like, I know when I've worked with folks who are gifted, and then if they're gifted and autistic this is doubly. Gifted folks often have a hard time connecting socially with their peers, perhaps not if they're in a gifted program, but they're often talking at a level that other folks aren't keeping up with.
And it was always so interesting because I have worked with several clients, and I'm smart enough that I could understand what they were saying, but I was working really hard to, like, keep up with them, and to be able to be the kind of therapist that could, like, stay engaged at their level. And it was such an interesting… I do a lot of interpersonal work to kind of realize, like, yeah, this person often has the experience of, I don't know if people talk about masking and giftedness, but if needing to, like, language down, bring down their language, bring down their concepts, bring down how fast their brain is working to be able to connect with others, or they're constantly feeling misunderstood because their brain is working so fast. And so, it's been really interesting, clinically, to see the social struggles that come for a lot of gifted folks, and how that even if the person is not also autistic, which I think a lot of them are, but even if they're not, if they're just gifted, there's still social struggles that come with that.
PATRICK CASALE: I want to jump in on that too because some of the resources you've sent us, I was reading through them, and obviously, a lot of them resonated. And some of the statements of like, "But if you're getting all your schoolwork done, if everything looks like it's, you know, straight A's and coming naturally or easily, you really miss the behind the scenes struggles that are happening academically, and socially, and emotionally."
And I know for me, that was my experience for sure because, I have told Megan this before, but I could get straight A's on everything I've ever done without much effort, and I didn't really put a lot of effort in, if I'm being honest. And because of that, a lot of things got missed because it was just like, "Patrick gets straight A's and reads a lot." And like, that's that. And there was never, what you just said, Megan, really stood out to me, the struggle to connect socially with my peer group, especially, as I was like getting bumped up into advanced reading and advanced education early on in my life, like it was really hard not to feel alone in that.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, here's what I feel like. And, you know, as with so many things, it's always both and, right? It's hard to kind of go either way. I think that advocates for gifted individuals have actually done a disservice. It actually kind of comes back to the fact that the term gifted is just really an unfortunate term that we use because there is so much, I don't know, like implication about what that really means, you know, as far as valuing, you know, somebody's contribution to society.
And people have talked about how being gifted in and of itself is a deficit. And I have a really hard time accepting that. I mean, I'll be interested to hear what the other guests that you have coming on say about this because they may disagree with me. But the way I conceptualize it is that, first of all, research really shows, first of all, that individuals who have high intelligence have better life outcomes overall, more money, more happiness, better relationships, all of these different things.
And I actually think that viewing the difficulties that sometimes gifted individuals face through the lens of the social model of disability makes more sense.
So, for example, if I'm a student and again, just going back to the school situation, and I am in a classroom with all of the peers who are my same age, and I have the language skills of somebody who is five or six years older than I am, it's going to be harder for me to find friendships, not because I struggle socially, but because I'm not in an environment where I have the opportunity to actually connect with people. And then, there's this expectation it's like, well, that person's so weird, because, you know, they use all those big words. So, that's a big part of it.
Or people talk about, "Oh, you know, so many gifted people are perfectionists." Which, first of all, the research does not… perfectionism is domain specific. And so, we think about gifted individuals as being perfectionists related to academics because that is their strength, and so, then they do tend to show that a little bit more but anyone can be perfectionistic in a variety of different ways.
But again, when we look at that through that social model of disability, we can think about the fact that like, okay, well, are they perfectionists because they've never been challenged? And they haven't been appropriately given opportunities to fail? And because if you always get things right and it's reinforced, "Oh, you're so smart, and things come easily to you." Whatever, then you don't know how to handle that.
And so, you know, I feel like if something gets missed, and people are like, so when people want to advocate for Gifted Education Services, and they're like, it's so hard to be gifted. It's like, it's so hard to be gifted if you don't have some supports. And it's kind of the reverse. It's not like there's something inherent about being gifted that makes things harder. I mean, I guess, it's both and. Like, for example, you mentioned, like-
MEGAN NEFF: I like how you're nuancing it, though, it's about the context. And I think just having a blanket statement, "It's so hard to be gifted." I can see a lot of people, myself included, maybe wanting to roll their eyes at that, of like, "Let's talk about privilege. Let's talk about this with more complexity. Like, there's also privilege that comes with being gifted." But you're absolutely right, I see this in in family members, I see this in people I've worked with.
And so, like, I kind of love diving into this conversation because I kind of love that I'm not gifted. And I'll tell you why. It's because I was not like Patrick. I worked my ass off to get B's and to get occasional A's. And like, I played the hell out of the IQ cards that I was dealt to get into an Ivy League grad school. But I learned how to learn because I needed to, because I would probably have gotten C's otherwise. Whereas, like, I've seen it in my children when they were younger, I've seen it in folks I work with, for those for whom school comes easy, the ability to grow the distress tolerance of doing things that don't come easy is really hard.
And I know you work with adults. Like, the launch, like, okay, launching into adult is not language I like, but the transition to adulthood when you hit the job market and it requires a ton of perseverance, and that's not something that you've learned to do because things have come easy for you all of a sudden, like, job security can be really hard, but it's like, wait, but I have IQ of 145. How is this matching? This doesn't make sense.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, I see the struggle, and for that reason, I'm actually glad I'm not gifted, which…
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, well, and I think when, you know, there's just a lot to all of the different pieces. Like, there's so much about, like, do you know how to do school, right? Like, and a lot of gifted people don't know how to do school. And there's this-
MEGAN NEFF: I love that, do you know how to do school? Yeah, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, and you know, in the DSM-4, it's not in the DSM-5, but in the DSM four for ADHD, one of the specifications there was that you couldn't diagnose ADHD in students if the academic setting wasn't challenging enough. You know, and they've kind of taken that particular piece away, but yeah, I mean, obviously if somebody is unchallenged, then that might manifest as other types of behaviors in the classroom.
MEGAN NEFF: Totally.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: And even now in the DSM-5 and the autism piece, it talks about how social expectations, like somebody may be able to manage socially until the expectations outpace their abilities. Well, so for somebody who's gifted, like, you know, they can usually mask pretty well. They pick up on that stuff pretty well. And then, all of a sudden, what I end up finding is, like, you know, a lot of times these are individuals who didn't necessarily have a language delay when they were young, and so it wasn't necessarily picked up on when they were toddlers. And so, then they get to late elementary school, or middle school, or even adulthood, and all of a sudden they're like, "Okay, something's not clicking here. It's not coming as easily to me as it does to other people." But anyone ever saw was their overall cognitive ability as opposed to those other pieces that got hidden and got missed.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, there's a skill deficit I could imagine. I remember this also with one of my children. When my children started talking at seven months, was speaking in full sentences at 11 months, had 300 words when she was one. Like, just ridiculous off the scales verbal ability.
And I remember in my parenting of her, like, because she was so bright, I would forget that emotionally she's like a two-year-old. So, the tendency of, like, holding her to the standard of how she's talking, and so a lot of that skill development, I don't think I did a good job of like, I've got to teach this like she's too around emotions or around skills of like doing school.
And there's been some studies that people will often gauge someone's intellect by their verbal intellect because that's what's most forward-facing to the world. And so, I think for a lot of these folks there is that lack of recognition of like they still need fundamental skills to be taught to them because it's assumed, well, because their IQ or the way they talk is 10 years old. There could be those kind of significant gaps that really don't set up people well.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, you might have a thought on that, but I want to make sure and get time to talk about one thing you said before we started recording that really interested me was, like, adults and kind of realizing, I think, education traumas, how you put it. And I wanted to make sure we had time to talk about that experience of perhaps, like, the lost generation of 2E people who are now realizing, oh, wow, my experience of school or perhaps even work, this is part of why that was such a complex or stressful experience.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, well, and kind of to bridge from, you know, the conversation that's more directly related with the gifted piece, you know, you've probably seen, well, it's around Halloween time now, and there's always those memes about the different costumes, you know, about, like, you know, or somebody, "What are you going to be for Halloween?" You know, to the gifted kids, like, "Well, I was supposed to be a lot of things." Right? Like, this not living up to their potential, or the gifted kid burnout memes, all of these different pieces.
And my very unscientific hypothesis about this is that most of the people who that resonates with are probably twice exceptional people who were never identified, and meaning that they did well academically. They coasted through. They did okay. But there was a lot of other struggle there that was going on.
And, you know, so in my next book that's coming out in January, it's called Neurodiversity Affirming Schools. And it really is about a systemic change that we need to make in our educational systems for all neurodivergent people because going through school on a day-to-day basis, where you are having to mask, where you are constantly being reprimanded for things that are not a disciplinary issue, but part of being neurodivergent, where you are that square peg that is constantly trying to be forced into the round hole, has a lot of long term implications.
And how does that manifest as people grow older? You know, it's like it manifests as I can't, I'm not even going to try, right? Like, I can't because it brings up so much overwhelm. Or it's like the flip side where it's like, I'm going to be an overachiever and a perfectionist, I'm going to do all of the things, to check all the boxes because it's almost like a hypervigilance as far as what that reaction is to that negative feedback.
And I think that sometimes there's a definition for trauma, and I think that, you know, I don't want to take anything away from individuals who have experienced really intense, you know, direct trauma, but that low-level chronic stress of having to be in an environment that does not meet your needs. You know, then you get to adulthood, and maybe you were masking all of that time, or maybe you were… whatever it is, but like the way that you then interact with the world around you, how do you act, you know, when you're in your job, and you have certain expectations that are placed on you? Like, do you have an emotional reaction to that? Are you able to rise to that challenge? Do you have a, you know, push back against it, whatever it might be. But we can see those types of reactions in so many different ways. And I think that we underestimate that.
And then, it also influences people, as far as, you know, how they support their own children as they go through school. I think we really underestimate the harm that our schools do to neurodivergent kids because it was terrible growing up. It sucked. I hated it. I mean, it's part of why I've gone into the field that I have because I'm like, "This has to be different. It just can't keep going the way that it is." And I see those impacts in myself, you know, every day, if you want to look for them.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, can I ask more about your personal experience, of like, how do you see the kind of long-lasting impacts and how it shows up in your life now?
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: So, I struggled a lot during school. I had, well, for so many reasons. I mean, I look back and, like I said, Asperger's wasn't in the DSM when I was a kid, but if it had been, we would have looked at it because I was also the kid who was, like, hiding in the back of a classroom crying for hours when things didn't go the way I expected them. Like, there are a lot of those traits that I see in myself.
So, one of the things that I did, though, is when I got to college, for example, I graduated in three years. I took one semester where I took like 28 credit hours. I had another semester where I took 26 but it was like, I had to prove it. I had to prove to people that I was self-sufficient. And also, very independent, which again, can be a trauma response where it's like, I am not going to ask people for help because when I was growing up and I asked for help, I was told that I should be able to do these things, and if I wasn't doing them, I was lazy. And so, now, it's like, I'm going to kind of step that up. But the stress level that that causes on a day-to-day basis is a lot, and so I'm constantly trying to check those things. I'm trying to unlearn those things.
And for what it's worth, people who do well academically, you know, if they are gifted, you do have those expectations placed. And then, if you don't live up to them, what does that mean about who you are? What does that mean about how you show up in the world?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, there's so much pressure.
PATRICK CASALE: I can piggyback on all of that, and then you add in living in a capitalist society that rewards productivity and achievement, and it's like this constant internal battle to like, continuously prove, prove, prove, and completely burn yourself out to [CROSSTALK 00:40:52]-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, the burnout is huge. And I think you know, we talk about burnout so much and, well, I know, you know Megan Anna, this is your area of specialization. But I think one thing I would personally love to learn more about just is how many people are experiencing burnout and they are just pushing through because they just don't have really any other choice. Because I know I've been there at different times. And I think people always think burnout means that you totally shut down and you can't do anything. I feel like that's maybe a misunderstanding, perhaps, of how that might show up. But-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think that's a great take. Devin Price just wrote an essay on his Substack that I thought was really well done, kind of talking about how the capitalistic system we're in kind of places all of us, like most of us, in our relationship to work is a recipe for burnout, like neurotypical or neurodivergent. The way we've structured society, especially, in the States is one that does not promote, like, wellness or thriving, or balance, or harmony, or like, yeah. So, absolutely, I think that a lot of people are in some state of burnout, pushing through.
And I think what you've hit on that I really like is when you've been identified as gifted, especially, IQ, but really in many ways, then there's these expectations that come with that, that I think cause someone to like, well, I have to push through because there's so much expectation here.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Well, that's just what you learn about yourself, right? Like, and…
MEGAN NEFF: And it gets tied to worse, I imagine, for a lot folk's-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Absolutely, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: …performance. Yeah, yeah.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah. And [CROSSTALK 00:42:50]-
MEGAN NEFF: And are you watching… Oh, go ahead.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: I was just going to say I have a sticker on my laptop that says something like, you're more than your productivity, right? It's so hard to remember that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Well, especially, when that's been reinforced throughout your life, of like, this is what makes you special, this is what… Yeah, absolutely.
I struggle with that too. Very much productivity is very connected to my worth, and I'm working through that. I'm trying to work through that. But [CROSSTALK 00:43:17]-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm curious if you have watched High Potential.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: I have not.
MEGAN NEFF: It's one of my new favorite shows. I watch it with one of my daughters who really identifies with the gifted label. And she talks about her IQ is like 160, and it's high potential. But it does a good job of capturing, like, this is someone with a ridiculously high IQ. But it does not mean her life is easy. It means that she obsesses. It means she can't sleep because she's obsessing about things. So, it's fun to see that it's out there. I like that they're not using the language of giftedness, but they're captured. And she also is coded very ADHD. They're capturing kind of the complexity that comes with high intellect.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah. And for what it's worth, I'll often use the terms gifted or high potential because sometimes, and so, it's interesting that they caught on to that. I hesitate. I don't know. I tend to, like, I haven't watched it. I've seen the ads for it and I'm-
MEGAN NEFF: You might hate it.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, well, it's like, one of those things I'm like, I feel like, but that's with, I think, any show about neurodivergent characters, I tend to, like, get annoyed.
MEGAN NEFF: But I think you'd probably get annoyed by some aspects of it. It's like, it, yeah, yeah. But it sounded like… yes.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: I think it's helpful to bring awareness about various things to people. And I think that media is the best way to do that. And if that helps to normalize various labels and diagnoses, I think overall, the benefit outweighs the drawback. But, you know, it's hard to approach those things because when you're writing a character, well, that character cannot embody whatever traits it is that you're trying to you know, explore, but yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yes. That is well said. Well, I think we're about to wrap up. I know you have a meeting here shortly, but is there anything I haven't asked you that I… Sometimes I know I get itchy thoughts in the back of my brain when I'm on a podcast of like, "Oh, I really wanted to say this thing." Do you have any itchy thoughts of things you wanted to mention that we haven't talked about?
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Let me think. I guess maybe, I don't know. No, I mean, I feel like there is, but they're not coming to my like conscious mind right now for me to be able to put them into words. I guess maybe, yeah, just to also recognize like giftedness, oh, I know what it is that I want to say. Giftedness comes in a lot of different forms, and I will only just talk about the fact like one of my little rants that I like to go on is when we talk about identity-first versus person-first language in the neurodiversity community. And people are saying, you know, especially, in the professional world, when you're talking to clinicians, or educators, or whoever who have been trained to use person-first language there's sometimes this pushback. And, you know, no, no, they're a student with autism, they're a person with ADHD.
And the point I bring it back around to is, you know what? There's a group of students who we always use identity first language. And it's when we're talking about gifted kids. Why is that? It's because language conveys our values. It tells you what we approve of, and what is okay, and what is not. And I think that the message that we send when we use identity-first language for neurodivergent people who prefer that language for themselves. I mean, everyone can, you know, choose, but I think it's really important to put that into perspective when we really are talking about de-pathologizing and destigmatizing those labels and recognizing, like, yeah, you can be an autistic person. And it's awesome, and it's hard, and it's both and. And you can be gifted, and it's awesome, and it's hard, and it's both and. Like, whatever that might be. And so, you know, just recognizing the value of all of those different pieces, and not just the ones that society says are best.
MEGAN NEFF: So interesting. I hadn't made that connection, but you're right. We've always used identity-first for gifted because it's a-
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Good thing.
MEGAN NEFF: It's seen as a good thing, that's really interesting. I love that you help people make that connection when having that conversation, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:47:46].
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. That's really powerful. That's a great last statement because that is really powerful. It explains the nuance that we talk about a lot on here, and it's a really good, yeah, wow. What a good conversation. This was fun.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Yeah, I appreciate it.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:48:05]. Do you have anything you want to share with the audience? It's that time to share your podcast, or books, or whatever else you've got going on.
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Sure. So, you can check out The Neurodiversity Podcast. And so, we focus a lot on, especially, for people who are raising neurodivergent kids. Like, there's a lot that's relevant there, although, we talk about a lot of different topics throughout the lifespan. So, if you love this one, you might like that one too. You could definitely check out, if you are anywhere like associated educationally, check out our new book. Amanda Morin is my co-author on the book that's coming out in January, Neurodiversity Affirming Schools: Transforming Practices so All Students Feel Accepted and Supported. We're really excited about it. It's available for pre-order now.
And you can find me Emily Kircher-Morris, just search me up on any of the platforms. I do have a profile on Twitter. May it rest in peace, but I'm not active there. Anyway, but find me wherever.
PATRICK CASALE: That sounds great, and we'll include all of that in the show notes too, so everyone has easy access to everything that Emily just mentioned because lots of great resources. And Megan and I have both been guests on your podcast. So, check all those episodes out. You have almost like 260 right now, don't you?
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: I think so, yep.
PATRICK CASALE: It's really well done. I have 160 on my other and I'm like, "Damn, how do I keep this moving?"
EMILY KIRCHER-MORRIS: Luckily, I've got a partner who does all the production stuff. So, you know that makes it a little bit [INDISCERNIBLE 00:49:36]-
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, totally. And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And we will see you next week.
