Episode 79: OCD (Part 5): Bridging Mental Health and Comedy [featuring Samuel Silverman]
Nov 07, 2024
Show Notes
Balancing vulnerability and authenticity can be challenging, but also deeply rewarding.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Samuel Silverman, a psychiatrist and stand-up comedian diagnosed with OCD and ADHD, about the intersection of comedy, mental health, and the digital age.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain insights into how the blend of personal vulnerability and social critique in comedy helps individuals connect with their audience and understand their own mental health experiences more deeply.
- Hear Samuel Silverman's unique perspective on balancing a career in psychiatry with a presence on comedy stages and in social media, including the ethical boundaries he maintains while advocating for mental health awareness.
- Discover practical advice on recognizing and managing OCD, understanding its pervasive nature of doubt, and learning how self-expression can be a cathartic way to handle internal struggles.
As you reflect on this conversation, consider how your own experiences and challenges might be transformed through creative expression and connection. Remember that sharing your journey, setting healthy boundaries, and advocating for understanding can be powerful tools in the mental health landscape.
Note from Samuel:
I was born and raised in Baltimore, MD, in a progressive Jewish family. I went to the same small progressive school that my mother and aunt attended — my grandmother actually taught there while the two of them were in school, and my mother later taught there while my brother and I attended.
When I was 18, I traveled halfway across the country to attend Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota. It was there that I met my wife, Kelley Stevens, better known as “The Private Practice Pro.”
I attended medical school at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and completed my psychiatry residency training at Loma Linda University. As I was completing my residency, I began to explore the world of stand-up comedy, and started performing throughout Southern California before traveling to other parts of the country to tell jokes, when I’m not too busy seeing patients.
I myself have diagnoses of both OCD and ADHD. More than anything, OCD has colored so much of my experience. Because of this, my symptoms and struggles with this condition provide much of the material for my comedy.
- Instagram: @samsilvermancomedy
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Megan and I are still doing our OCD series, getting ready for OCD Awareness Month. And we have Sam Silverman here today, which I'm really excited about, I think we're both really excited about because Sam has a very unique personality, who is a psychiatrist, who is a stand-up comedian, who also has diagnoses of OCD and ADHD. And says, "More than anything, OCD has colored so much of my experience because of this, my symptoms and struggles. And struggles within this condition provide much of the material for my comedy." We are really happy to have you on here. And thank you for making the time.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Thanks for having me. I'm pumped.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I found your work, like, I think, a couple of years ago. And I loved it because I love, like, comedy that's mental health-based because when we can laugh at the really hard experience, I feel like it creates a sort of playfulness that helps us hold the hard experiences. So, I've been a fan of your work for the last couple of years.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Oh, thank you. Yeah, you know, I think that's the definition, pretty much of levity is, you know, injecting humor into tragic and difficult situations. And I think that putting that up there can be really wonderful. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: I love it.
MEGAN NEFF: I think the other thing that's unique about you is that you talk about your lived experience of OCD as a psychiatrist, which that's something Patrick and I have talked about a bit on this podcast, but it can be really hard to talk about our struggles with mental health as providers because there's this expectation, like, you should have it all together, which I know I don't, for sure.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, you know, yeah, none of us have it together. I think I see it as a strength in a lot of ways, although I don't always kind of share all these different things and disclose but to understand that all of our brains are fallible to some degree. They all have different pathways and ways that we view the world. And if we can at least understand that we're viewing through that lens, it can be somewhat helpful as a practitioner and as meeting that patient there. So, I do see it as a strength. But yeah, I know it can be difficult to talk about and talk about so openly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: I think, also, you know, it almost feels like in the mental health community therapists are becoming more and more encouraged to speak about lived experience. I think it feels like it's a bit safer in the therapeutic community, opposed to the medical community, to some degree.
And we did have an autistic psychiatrist on here talking about lived experience a couple weeks ago. And so, I just want to say I give you a lot of credit for being in that profession, and then, still just openly, not only talking about the lived experience but also, having some fun with it. Because I think if we're always doom and gloom about this, which, let's be honest, sometimes this podcast can feel that way, it's really easy to really feel like defeated all the time. And I think we do have to laugh at some of the stuff that our brains are doing, that we are doing as humans, and some of our experiences, for sure.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Definitely, I appreciate that. Thanks, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I am curious a little bit about, like, your clinical context. Are you in like a medical study and are you in private practice? Do you work primarily with OCD? Do you work like more generally?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Totally. So, I am one of four psychiatrists, and we just hired a psychiatric nurse practitioner to our group but in a larger, multi-specialty group. I don't know how many doctors, but I think it's over 200 that we have. So, covering, you know, a wide range of different things.
And I exclusively take insurance. I guess there is like a cash pay rate that some people can pay because you have these mental health carve-outs that people have. So, if they're trying to see somebody outside of their network we'll try to make that work as much as possible. And I do take Medicare, don't take Medicaid, and that's just the way the group is contracted there.
But yeah, I'm an outpatient psychiatrist. And I see, really, the whole run of different things. I mean, I have people with all sorts of different anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, OCD, ADHD, bipolar disorder. I have plenty of people with schizophrenia who are, you know, chronically psychotic on Clozaril, different things there. So, yeah, I have the whole run of the mill with that there, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Curious about your lived experience and your OCD experience for this collection, especially. So, can you tell us a little bit about what that's been like for you as you pre and post-psychiatric residency and present day?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, definitely. And they do integrate, kind of, nicely together in figuring it out. I didn't really get any mental health treatment diagnoses until I was in medical school.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, wow.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah. And so-
MEGAN NEFF: Can I-
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm going to guess that you had OCD as a child, since you also have ADHD.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely. Yeah, you know, retrospectively, it's comical, it's tragic, but it's comical, too. And, you know, we talk about different ways that it impacts our brain that are not just maladaptive, that can be positive in some ways, and either between that, between, you know, other ways my brain works I was able to get through college and get into medical school. But both of these conditions can cause really pretty profound paralysis within those things. And I think that is really where it first started to become most obvious, where, you know, whatever it was that I was doing to overcompensate just wasn't cutting it anymore. And that's when I really knew I got diagnosed ADHD anxiety generalized. And it really became more clearer that, that was OCD once I started in psychiatric residency with-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, yeah.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: And, you know, then I would look back and see how obvious that was in just so many different ways. And we know that OCD can just ping pong to different stuff over the course of, you know, a month, or certainly a lifetime. And, yeah, it's been really wild to see that, and to really start to understand my brain, and understand that there are elements that just seem nonsensical, that you should just either kind of perplex me or would become part of my normal experience that I would just push aside.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting how many medical providers and therapists are coming to discover themselves as they work in the clinical population. Like, "Oh, as I'm doing this clinical interview, wait, like, check, check, check." Yeah, absolutely.
And I recently read a study, I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was on average 12 years, like, between first OCD symptoms and diagnosis. Like, it's a really hard condition to diagnose. I think what you're saying is really spot on about like it's, I mean, it's similar to anxiety in the sense of, like, the monkey brain. Like, it'll just find a new tree. Like, so the monkey brain idea's like a monkey will hang out on a tree. Once that issue is resolved, it'll just jump to another tree.
But OCD, what you're saying is, like, it can have a similar kind of bopping all around that makes it… it's a little chameleon-like, in that it can show up in different facets of our life. It can have different flavors. And so, it can be really hard to spot.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, definitely. You know, I think the phrase that we use in OCD a lot of time is like OCD whack-a-mole.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: You know, and so, like, people will try to, like, subtype OCD. And I think that can be helpful sometimes in understanding, like, some really distressing elements that are at play, that are focused on one particular thing. But in general, I don't do that because we can see it go from, you know, one to the other, to more, you know, scrupulosity, to more interpersonal and relational, and all those different things there. And-
MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. So, you don't focus on the subtypes. You're kind of looking more at like the meta concepts that kind of stream throughout those experiences? That's interesting.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Absolutely. And that's a lot of how, you know, I wear different hats depending on what types of conditions I'm treating and what we're trying to focus on as the goal with people who have schizophrenia, chronically psychotic people who have, for lack of a better phrasing, true bipolar disorder, and really have moments of mania lasting six, nine months, things like this. I just need those people to take their medication. That's all I need them to do. And that's, like, the big thing that I'm focusing on. Take your medication, sleep, don't do drugs, pretty much to start, anyway, with that.
For people with OCD, ADHD, into kind of other subset with like PTSD, borderline personality disorder, those things with these groups, I'm trying to get them to understand the way their brain works, to some degree, the pathways that they go into these types of things there. I think that's where we have kind of the greatest level of success is just understanding those habits and processes that we end up in.
MEGAN NEFF: I love how you just differentiated that. And absolutely, I feel like my late-in-life neurodivergent discovery, so much of it has been about coming to understand how my brain works, and a lot of my healing, and a lot of my restructuring of my world has come from that.
I'm curious, what are some of the ways with OCD that you help folks. Like, what are some of the pathways that you feel like are really important for people to understand about how the OCD brain works?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, I think, and it's not necessarily a pathway with this part, but it's, I think, the biggest thing that I want people to understand is that it's thinking of it as a doubt disorder. And that doubt can really go to anything and everything. And understanding that your brain is trying to manage that doubt in a way that it cannot do. And I think that that is kind of the biggest thing that we can think of. And so, we can either think of that in terms of, like, I doubt that the door is locked or the stove is off, and then just we can see that expand quickly where I doubt that if I don't then lock the door seven times, then something terrible will happen that's catastrophic or these things. And it can just ping pong to something else there, or compulsive rumination, any type of different thing. And it leads to all those different magical thinking, odd, nonsensical connections that come on there.
And I think that if we understand that, that is, I think, the first place to really seeing how OCD can impact all other parts of our experience. And also, have some people who, like,
to give like more of an extreme example, but I use it to understand, like, how important this step is and how paramount it is, is all the people who will spend 30 minutes each time I'm seeing them talking themselves in and out of the OCD diagnosis, debating it in front of me there, they're exemplifying that doubt. And if they could understand that what they're doing is their brain is downing the OCD diagnosis, as you would expect, and it is just compulsively ruminating around it the entire time that can make a big difference in somebody taking that step forward. So, I think that's the biggest thing that I start out with.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Sounds significantly less pathologizing than a lot of providers and prescribers that I've talked with. So, I just want to say that it feels really affirming to hear it from that perspective and from that lens.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Thanks. I appreciate that.
PATRICK CASALE: So, because I think this is a big part of your journey, I do want to know about the comedy piece. So, how does this start? How does it kind of progress?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, that's a great… Nobody's ever asked it that way, and that's exactly how I think about it. So, and kind of like leading up to it, to that start, I've always been somebody who's very interested in performing arts in any capacity.
So, you know, high school, I did a lot of acting, lot of singing. College, I did more actual like singing like vocal as an instrument itself and doing vocal work there. Medical school, was in my acapella group, and, you know, I really wanted to kind of itch that once again. And it was lacking in residency, which is when I started at the end of my residency.
And I had been talking about doing stand-up. I had made some promises to my wife over and over again that I was going to start. My wife is Kelly Stevens. She's the Private Practice Pro. And so, I made promises that I was going to do it, then I didn't follow up on that over and over again. And I gave a best man speech. And it did really well as kind of a comedic, light-hearted process. And she said, "That's it. I'm signing you up for class. I'm forcing your hand on it."
And so, that was six, seven years ago that I did that. And it's kind of taken off from there. I was in Southern California during my residency. And I started at the end of my residency where my schedule started to open up a little bit more. So, I was able to take classes, go to open mics, do a lot of shows, like, do multiple things, like, every single day of the week, if I wanted to really. And then, moved up to Santa Barbara. And, you know, it's fallen in line with my life in a lot of ways because Santa Barbara is a great comedy scene, but it is on the smaller side, and I can fit it into my work, and into my family life, yeah. And they provide the material.
MEGAN NEFF: Your family does or… And your work, yeah.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, you know, I probably told the least amount of jokes about my work, but yeah, my brain and my family-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I would think you'd have to be careful about that.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah. You know, I definitely don't tell jokes about my patients, for sure, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I would think that would be a really easy way to lose your license.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, well, you know, maybe. You know, you'd be surprised, but I think either way, you know, I was taking this class with, at the time, one of the owners of Flappers Comedy Club in Burbank. And it was, you know, put on as, like an advanced level class. I was probably the most novice person in the group. But there were other people that, you know, put out specials like 10, 15 years before, things like that, and done a lot of other work. So, were kind of bigger names in comedy.
And they were pushing me to do more jokes about my patients, and kind of seeing what we could do with that. How could we explore that? And I couldn't. I tried. But what the feedback really was that it just didn't seem authentic with that. And so, like, it was obvious that I was not connecting to the material even as I was trying to do that. So, even if I wanted to, I couldn't. But I don't want to anyway.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I mean the pieces I've heard, you're really talking about your own experience and your own experiences with OCD. And I think that's what feels so impactful, and that's why I can laugh at it because I'm like, "I relate to this. And here's someone who's making fun of their obsessive, ridiculous brain, who does all of these weird things that make them feel miserable."
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And it's funny.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's what I'm going for. So, good to hear that.
PATRICK CASALE: Sweet spot unlocked. I realized, like, in my speaking career that I do a lot of self-deprecating humor about my own autistic ADHD experiences. And the more I watch the audience laugh, the more I'm like, "Man, this is really energizing. I would love to do more of this."
I was thinking about this in Italy last week. I was like, "Every time I'm on stage, people are laughing. Is there something I'm missing?" Which is kind of part of my autistic experience. Like, it's been a really interesting journey for that, for sure.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: That's awesome, that's awesome. Yeah, it is really energizing. It's one of the best experiences. I mean, there's a lot of anxiety behind that. And, you know, I have not made people laugh tons of times to get to the place where I make people laugh more consistently. But even then, still, you know, not always there, but it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I would think it would be really hard to do comedy with OCD, right? Like, the doubting disease because comedy is so hard. I remember, I think it was Adam Grant's… one of his books where he uses the example of Steve Martin, who, like, did stand-up after stand-up and like failed and failed and failed, and then, like, tried so much stand-up to get to where he was, eventually, but it took hours and hours and hours of just jokes, you know? Falling flat to get there. Like, I think it takes a long time to learn, like, you know, what's going to work with a room, what's going to be funny, what's going to cross the line, and do too much, like, and then to be navigating all of that and all of that exposure to failure, essentially, with OCD, like, that just sounds excruciating.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, so it is and it isn't. And I think part of it relates to kind of, once again, being able to kind of at least taste that metacognition. I know that my brain is going to be experiencing that no matter what. Whatever it comes down to, I'm going to be playing out that perceived, or real failure, or fear of failure, and that doubt across the board. Might as well do something with it, and might as well have it in that type of way rather than just doing it in my head because I think that's the other trick and fallacy with that doubt disorder is kind of the next thing is you're not going to figure it out internally, but your brain tricks you into thinking that you will if you just evaluate it in this way, if you just look at it this angle then you'll understand that. But there's always that next turn that comes in there.
And so, if I know that that's going to be happening in my brain internally, you know, I can look at that and say, "Hey, part of that experience is just nonsense." And I can stand up in front of people a little bit easier, still hard, you still feel that, yeah. But it doesn't feel nearly as heavy in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: I really love what you just said so much. And it reminds me of, actually, last week's conversation. We talked a bit about ACT. And I mentioned the inside-out trap, and that idea of, like, I've got to fix all this inward stuff before I can move before I can act, and move forward. And I hear a lot of that acceptance of what you're saying too, of like, this obsessive doubting is going to be here either way, and I'm either going to be stuck or I'm going to be doing something. And yeah, that's going to give my brain fresh material, but I'm going to be, like, moving toward what's important.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's certainly a lot closer to happiness than trying to figure it out internally. It just doesn't count, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Agreed, 100%. I experienced a lot of that as well. And I've always realized that I can experience it internally, and it can live internally forever, or it can come out and you can still be overwhelmed, and doubting yourself, and anxious. But it feels like pressure relief. It feels like a relief to just get it out into the world. And I've always found that to be so unbelievably cathartic for my own mental health as well. And I think that it's unfortunate to watch so many people keep it inside of themselves and convince themselves that it's not worthy of putting out into the world for whatever reason.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, and I think we have to acknowledge too, that moving up to that place where you feel any type of pressure relief, you will feel an increase in pressure. And I think that is often what keeps people stuck with that too, is that you will increase that tension before you get to that spot, yeah. And there will always be a moment where it will feel like you're taking a leap and taking that first step.
MEGAN NEFF: And do you find that the more you've taken that leap, does that leap… not non-existent, of course, but does it get easier to take the more you have done that?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely, yeah. Like, yeah. As far as, like, things that I can think about that, like, I've done in like the thousands of times it's, you know, picking up a mic and telling jokes even for just five minutes. And then, having patient interactions and those things. And so, like, there's always, like, you know, all right, I got to go see my next patient, but not more than that. And I think that's the same thing with, all right, I got to start telling jokes, here we go.
You know, and a lot of times what that means is that, like, I'll modulate how much, like, prep I'm doing for that particular night or that particular event, you know, depending on how much that pressure is too because no sense in building that up unnecessarily.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I would agree with that. That's really well said. So, it sounds like the ability to go up there that's not only good for you mental health-wise, it's cathartic, your wife pushed you to do it, and then you come back, and you work in this practice. How do you maintain separation sometimes if people find you on social media and they're like, "Hey, you're my psychiatrist." Or, "I want you to be my psychiatrist."
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Well, so great, great stuff there. I put on my social media and all those things, like, no medical mental health stuff. You know, if somebody asked me to be their psychiatrist, I don't take that. You know, I don't.
I'm in a position where, like, because I take insurance, because I take public insurance, in some cases too, they're federally funded. You know, I have a huge wait list, and so I don't do any type of, like, marketing, you know? Just being a psychiatrist is an awful way to have really good job security. You know, and I want to get people better, you know because I have such a huge wait list. Like, it's not like I need to have anybody linger around longer than they need to. But yeah, I think for that part that is easier there.
When my patients find me on social media and like, that did not start happening until three years ago I had, like, one video go viral. And that's when that first started there. And that's when people started to kind of find me a little bit more.
And I am in Santa Barbara. It's a town of 100,000 people, really probably like 200,000 when you're looking at some of the surrounding communities and areas. And so, it's big, but it's not so I also run into my patients all the time.
And I say the same thing with my comedy each time, which is, you can follow me on social media, you can know that I do this here. I will warn you that you will find out a lot about my own mental health through there. And that is just your choice about what you want to do. If you want to kind of pursue that that's totally okay.
Now, if it becomes something where, like, they can't stop talking about it, try to treat the session like an open mic. Whatever else the case is, I may have to set a more firm boundary with that there. And if my material is really distressing to them, and they know that there, I haven't really ever had this, but, you know, I've thought, like, once or twice about saying, "Hey, if this is going to be too much, I think it makes sense for, you know, you'd either unfollow this account." Or I can, you know, take a look and find your profile, and block or restrict that so that way you can't see those things too. And kind of having that there never really got to that point, but have toed that line once or twice, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And that's just kind of how I do that, and it tends to work reasonably well. I'm sure there are other people that I know, there are other people that follow me that, like, have not brought it up with those things and other stuff, and that's okay.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, this is such a new era we're in. Like, you know, our laws haven't caught up to the technology, certainly our ethics, our, like, clinical training, our medical training haven't caught up. Like, it really is such an, like, interesting, paradoxical relationship when you have a public life. But then, like, it's so personal, it's so intimate to do mental health work with someone. Yeah, for me, ultimately, I felt it was creating too much tension. But I really like the way you talk about, kind of, the way you set up the containers, the way you set up the boundaries around that. Because, yeah, it's incredibly tricky.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah. And if I think if I didn't use a stage name, you know, using my mother's last name there, I think if I didn't see the wide range of people that I see, certainly if I was a, you know, like Kelly, everybody that she works with knows who she is, you know, that's totally different thing. Most people I don't think, do for me. And so, there are some buffers with that, which is nice.
MEGAN NEFF: I think that'd be kind of cool to be, like, I have the secret life, and people don't know. Like, at work, people don't know about it. Like, that's like, my fantasy. I don't know what it is with having a secret life, but it just sounds really fun.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, oh yeah, all my co-workers, all my colleagues know about her, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, I'll have, like, other docs in the community, like, randomly show up on my shows and figure it out, put it together. So, yeah, it does happen, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, how is it received in the medical community?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Pretty well. I mean, like, I think that more people in the medical community we know it exists, that we all deal with these types of things, I think. And I think doctors are opening up to that more and more. I think we still keep it a little bit more internally there because there is that self-protection part, but yeah, that we all struggle with various challenges, mental health, physical health, otherwise. But yeah, it's generally well-received. I can't think of a single time where I got anything negative. I mean, when I was applying for jobs, they thought it was cool, you know? Like, I always get good feedback from other docs when they run into it, either electronically or in person. So, yeah, I think it's well-received.
PATRICK CASALE: That's great. I think it's advocacy at like its curious form, honestly, you know?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Sure, I would like to hope it could be there. And certainly, that's the type of content I like to cover, are ones that can feel empowering, or at the very least disarming, some of the places that keep us dark.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. It feels like advocacy to me, too. Like, I see a lot of the times you'll start a bit with, like, "I'm a psychiatrist, I have OCD." Like, even that sentence, in and of itself is advocacy, and it's creating awareness around OCD because, again, OCD is really misunderstood.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, I think it's one of those OCD, ADHD, bipolar disorder kind of ones that people throw around in such a casual and inaccurate way, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. There's a lot of that.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, yeah. So, I'm curious, because you're in the comic world, I have a theory that a lot of comics are neurodivergent, either ADHD or autistic, specifically, partly because I think part of what makes a good comedy is it's a social critique, and the ability to, like, comfortably get up and be like, isn't society weird in this way? I just feel like the neurodivergent brain, specifically, the ADHD and autistic brain that comes a little bit more naturally for us. Have you, anecdotally, seemed to notice, like, does it feel like there's a lot of ADHD or autistic comedians out there?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Definitely, absolutely. There are a ton. Yeah. And I do think that part of it is like evaluating the world that way, or evaluating yourself that way, or doing those things. I think that's the case. And I think, you know, comedy is all about complaints and confessions, and the way you experience the world is at odds with the way that the world is that's a complaint, you know? It's weird that this happens. It's stupid that this happens. You know, like, that type of stuff right there is the foundation of a set up, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Complaint and confession. I love that as a framework for understanding comedy. That is what a lot of comedy falls into.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: It should be. It should be. Otherwise, what are you saying? You know, yeah, I would say, you look at setups, pretty much all them, when you break it down, are going to be complaints and confessions. Otherwise, people aren't going to listen.
MEGAN NEFF: And they go so well together because if someone just complains, it's like, "Okay, yeah, come on." But if you combine it with the vulnerability of confession it's like sweet and sour. You've got a good combo.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: You have to, in my opinion, either have some of those confessions there. You have to establish credibility as a comedian, one way or another. And so, you have to be vulnerable to some degree. And you can either do that by really having those things where you're sharing about yourself, or you have to be… And this is a lot harder, although, there are some very good autistic comedians who do this where you can have it be all complaints, but the way that you are able to go about the complaints is so well done that you are establishing credibility. So, you're complaining about the same stuff, in the same type of way, in the same type of frustration. You start to understand the way that that person's brain works [CROSSTALK 00:36:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: It's almost like a confession built into the complaint because, like, it's a confession, here's how my brain works, and from my brain the world is weird, and here's how.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: And I know that that's kind of weird in and of itself, too [CROSSTALK 00:36:20]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: …perceived there, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Love that. Maybe we will see Dr. Neff on a stage near you sometime soon.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, like to come?
PATRICK CASALE: No, maybe like as a comedian.
MEGAN NEFF: No, hell no, I'm not funny. I mean, in my like fantasy I'm funny. And, like, sometimes I hear, like, especially, the social critique commentaries that I adore. And I'm like, "Oh, I feel like my brain could do that." But it can't, like, pull it together. No, but I really admire what folks can.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: It's an art form, but there's a science to it, and you got to know how that works. So, yeah, people who think, "Oh, I'm just going to be funny and do that." The least funny people out there by far, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, that's like, the taking people through an experience. Like, that's what is so amazing about, like, a really good comedy. That is, like, the taking them through, and it's often a bit of an emotional roller coaster of an experience. And I love when comedians would be like, like Hannah Gatsby does this, like, "This is the experience I'm going to take you on." And then, they actually take you through that experience. And it's just, like, the meta-communication about here's what you're going to experience, and then do you do it. I don't know, I think comedians are very good communicators and very good under, like, having a pulse on the human experience.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah. Well, so yeah, certainly, those who make it are, yes [CROSSTALK 00:38:01] yeah. But yeah, I think that that's the thing. If people are connecting to your material, you're probably somebody who has a good pulse on that experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, agreed. I was just watching John Mulaney's stand-up of like him walking you through his addiction experiences and his recovery experiences. And it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life. And it was just so, so relatable and so real, where it's just like, yeah, this is outrageous, but it's hilarious.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Same thing… I'm blanking on her name, so I almost don't want to say this, because I'm embarrassed I'm blanking on her name. She has several specials on Netflix. She talks about bipolar and religious trauma, which I relate to. And she hosted late night show now.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Oh, Taylor Tomlinson.
MEGAN NEFF: Taylor Tomlinson, yes. I have loved her comedy this last year, and have found it, again, like a great combination of a critique of society, and also, a lot of confession.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, she's great. I really enjoy her too. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, Sam, I know you mentioned having a hard stop at the hour and I want to honor that. And just want to ask if there's anything you want to share with the audience as we're kind of getting ready to wrap up, or anything that you want to share with them in terms of how they find you or any of that information.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Oh, well, I'm on social media. I hate it, but you can find me there. It's a Sam Silverman Comedy on Instagram. And you can probably Google and find any other of my profiles, but that's the only one I really use. Yeah, so [CROSSTALK 00:39:54]-
MEGAN NEFF: Wait I was, oh, sorry, go ahead.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I'm so curious why you hate it because I always joke. I'm like, I'm the most anti-social social media person that I know, but maybe not [CROSSTALK 00:40:06]-
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Oh, man, there's so many reasons. It's a time suck. It's designed to be addictive. It's super fake in a lot of ways. And worsens people's self-esteem, not well regulated in terms of information. Yeah. I mean, list goes on and on. Yeah, not a big fan. Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It can be a powerful tool for education and there's a lot that comes with it.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: That's true.
MEGAN NEFF: I've been struggling with that as well. And sometimes I'm like, am I contributing to this, and should I get off? And yeah. But sorry, I think I interrupted. Are there other places people can find you so they can find you on social media?
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Yeah, that's really the big one there. Yeah, find me on social media, Instagram. And, yeah, I would just say OCD is tricky, and it makes you think that you don't have it. So, something worthwhile if you're unsure about what's going on internally.
PATRICK CASALE: So, yeah, that's a very real statement. So, it's a great way to wrap that up. And Sam, we appreciate you coming on. We know you're busy. And thank you so much for making the time to be on here as a guest.
SAMUEL SILVERMAN: Thank you so much for having me. This was awesome.
PATRICK CASALE: And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major podcast platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.
