Episode 75: The Neurodivergent Experience of Hurricane Helene
Oct 10, 2024
Show Notes
For neurodivergent individuals, navigating the upheaval caused by natural disasters can be particularly challenging. The constant unpredictability, sensory overload, and disrupted routines can feel overwhelming.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the psychological, emotional, and physical impact of natural disasters on neurodivergent individuals. Patrick, who lives in Asheville, NC, which was destroyed by Hurricane Helene, shares his experience.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Hear firsthand accounts from Patrick, a resident of Asheville, NC, about the challenges of enduring Hurricane Helene as a neurodivergent individual, including the disorientation from losing communication and navigating resource scarcity.
- Learn about the incredible efforts in Western North Carolina to band together, raise funds, and offer psychological support amid the chaos, showcasing the power of communal strength and how individuals can offer support that still works with their sensory needs.
- Understand the coping mechanisms and strategies for reestablishing normalcy, including navigating grief and routine disruption, that neurodivergent individuals can employ in the face of crisis.
If you want to donate to Patrick's GoFundMe to help provide urgent aid for Western North Carolina communities affected by Hurricane Helene, visit: atppod.com/wnc
NOTE: Please be aware that this episode includes a first-hand account of the tragedy and devastation caused by Hurricane Helene in Asheville, North Carolina.
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: Resilient Mind Counseling & Learning Nook
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
✨✨ Hurricane Relief for WNC communities:
This money will go to nonprofits who are boots on the ground. It will go to struggling individuals who do not have enough money for gas to get out, or who do not have enough money to provide their basic needs right now. Donate to Patrick's GoFundMe to help provide urgent aid for WNC communities affected by Hurricane Helene. Visit: atppod.com/wnc
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Megan and I are postponing our OCD series for a week so that we can bring you this episode that we just recorded about Hurricane Helene, the destruction and devastation that happened in Western North Carolina, and Asheville, North Carolina, where I live. And so, we could talk about what it's like to experience natural disaster in a neurodivergent body. We will get back to the OCD series next week. Thank you so much for sharing, supporting, donating, and for listening. We hope this is helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: Hi, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Hi, Megan.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I want to ask how you are, but I also don't because that's a freaking loaded question. I'm going to set the stage for our listeners. I haven't seen you in two weeks, and I'm going to assume that you are in the middle of what's probably been the most terrible, scariest, 10, 11 days of your life.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah., I would say-
MEGAN NEFF: It's October 6th.
PATRICK CASALE: …that feels rather accurate. And like I have lost all track of time at this stage, if I'm being honest. I thought today was Wednesday. It is not.
MEGAN NEFF: It's Monday, yeah. I imagine you feel really disoriented right now.
PATRICK CASALE: I do.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I do. And to sidle everyone in as to why, I think a lot of you know that I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and Western North Carolina, which was pretty devastated by the hurricane last week, and the last, however, many days, 10, 11 days have been a blur.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we've had some contact, not a lot because, like, you didn't have, you know, cell phone for a while. But every time we've touched in, I can tell you're kind of in the, like, dissociated fugue that often happens after trauma.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. You were one of the few people I was able to have some contact with over the first couple of days. And that was horrifying. You know, we could go into all the things and what we've seen in the community, what it's looked like, the outcomes, etc. But I think for me, like, some of the scariest moments were in the first couple of days because we had lost cell phone data across the board in Western North Carolina for almost five days. So, you couldn't use the internet, you couldn't text, you couldn't call, you couldn't email. It was like we were basically living in an apocalyptic state, where we know the devastation and the destruction was really bad, but we had no idea how bad. We also couldn't tell anyone that we were alive or figure out, like, what was happening.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought about that. So, I have an employee who also lives in Asheville, and similar to you, was able to get out after maybe five or six days. And she was saying, how, like, I don't know if I want to look at the news yet. And it was this moment of like, oh, yeah. Like, what a psychologically weird experience. Like, you're in it and the world knows more about what's happening than you do because you don't have access to news, you don't have access. And so scary. Like, you don't have access to emergency services if you need it.
And then, to finally get out, and to tap into the news, and be like, "Oh, that's what was happening." That's such a weird experience to be in it, but not know what's happening.
PATRICK CASALE: Super weird because there were times where you were texting me like, "I'm watching the news and I'm seeing what's happening." And I was like, "I have no idea what's happening." And I don't have enough service or data to continue the conversation to ask you, like, can you give me any updates? And you have to go into, like, sure survival mode and panic mode because what ends up happening in the first couple of days in the acute stages of a crisis like this, you're, obviously, trying to make sure, okay, is there damage to our house? Do we know of anyone that we're connected to is in dire needs?
What ultimately ends up happening is your brain starts to do this thing, right, where it becomes very aware of how much water you have left, how much gas you have left, what resources you do and do not have, and as those begin to dwindle it's like, oh my God. Like, the urgency levels on certain things became so intensified.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I was scared for you. I mean, I was scared for like, everyone in Asheville, but like, reading about, especially, the water situation, it's just like, yeah, yeah. So, I'm sure you were doing inventory of like, or even, like, yeah, do we have enough gas to… Even if there's roads that are unblocked can we get out of here?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that was a real fear because we both had like half a tank. And we were using my car to charge our devices and, like, we drove around a couple of places.
MEGAN NEFF: I was wondering. I was like, how does Patrick have, like, how is he texting me? How is his cell phone battery? He's smart.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It was, but it was also, like, it became this-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:08:08] needed the gas.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Because, like we would drive around to see, like, okay, are there ways out of here? Can we get a sense of the damage? And we went downtown the first day, downtown had power, but no internet, no cell data. And hotels were open, etc. So, we were like, "Maybe we can get a pet-friendly hotel room for a couple of days until we figure this out." But because they have no data and no internet, they could not check people in, nor could they, like, look at their reservation systems. So…
MEGAN NEFF: They couldn't check people in.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness.
PATRICK CASALE: So, we were like, "Okay, well, that option is not a viable option." Then we went through the River Arts section of our city, which it looks like a war zone. Like, it's just completely destroyed.
And then, like, several of our friends have businesses in the area, and we watched them, like, go underneath water, like 30 feet deep. And we were just standing on the bridge with like, probably 50 other people in complete shock because you're watching people's livelihoods, homes, potentially, lives. I mean, we lost a lot of people just completely disappear in the blink of an eye. And we watched my friend's shop, who does all our tattoo work underwater from a distance. And I was just like, "That is their entire life like gone in an instant."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Then add into the mix of being a boss and employing 25 people, the stress levels about everyone else's livelihoods is also taking place while worrying about your own existence. It's a really weird meta place to be.
MEGAN NEFF: I would imagine it's hard to even know where to begin with. We talk about grief a lot on this podcast. And I don't think, I mean, when you're in the, like, acute stage of crisis, like, that's not really the time for grieving because like, it's about stabilization and safety.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: But when the grief does hit, I imagine, like, where [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:32] even begin when there's so many layers to it and so much loss to a whole community.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah, for sure. I think it's going to be a long road for Western North Carolina and all of Appalachia. People don't really understand the infrastructure, the fact that we are in the mountains makes everything significantly more complicated. I've heard a lot of the like, "How come you guys were unprepared for this?"
And it's like, "Because we are in the mountains of Appalachia, four hours from the sea. And we had already sustained an enormous amount of rainfall prior to the event, so all of the ground was already loose and soft. So, trees, I mean, massive, massive trees just uprooted overnight." And like, just seeing that damage, it's just mind-blowing.
I started thinking about my own sensory experience during this time, which was really, like, front and center because when the water goes out, and the power goes out, and it's hot, and it's stifling, and there's no airflow, and you're basically in the dark, you can't shower, you can't wash your face, like, you can't do any of the things that I would typically do to sensory soothe.
MEGAN NEFF: You shower twice a day. You talked about that in our OCD series. Yeah, that's like, a huge way you reset.
PATRICK CASALE: Sometimes three times. So, like, going on like day three without a shower, and you've been outside, and you're like, sweating, and we were grilling out food on our gas grill out back to try to preserve food. So, I was doing that, but it was also, like, super hot [CROSSTALK 00:12:19]-
MEGAN NEFF: Hot, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And I was just, like, thinking about it, our final night there where I was like, I have to figure out a way for us to get out because my sensory system cannot handle more of this. Like, unable to brush your teeth, unable to wash yourself. Like, unable to have any hygiene, in general. And I felt so uncomfortable that last night that we were in Asheville, that it was like, 9:00 PM pitch black, you know, all the street lights are out. But there was like, these little blips of cell phone service on our street where people would like, congregate with their phones up [INDISCERNIBLE 00:12:59]. It was really bizarre.
And I was just, like, finding those late at night, just like trying to seek out information about what are the roads like? Can we get out of here? We've heard rumors, but we've also heard the opposite. Can someone help me find a rental so we can get the hell out of here and stabilize?
And thankfully, that did happen. But man, what an enormous amount of guilt and grief that comes with survivor's guilt, the privilege of being able to leave. Like, it's a mindfuck.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. No, I would imagine that. That that would be a really complex, like the relief of being able to get out, but then, also, like, yeah, the privilege of being able to get out. And even now, like, knowing there's still a lot of people in Asheville who are struggling significantly.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep. It's weird because we're in Charlotte right now, and life goes on and typically does here. Like, all the things [CROSSTALK 00:14:02]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's the weird thing about, like, trauma. Like, our lives stop, but the world doesn't.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And it feels like it should. There's a fantastic poem by someone named WH Auden, who actually named one of her kids after him. And it's a poem about grief, when he lost, kind of, his lover. And it talks about time and how time should stop, but it keeps marching on and how cruel that seems.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, that's about, right? Because we're, like, going to restaurants to get food, or coffee, or gas, and without a line of 300 people. And nobody here is in panic/survival mode. And it's like, it's very bizarre.
I will say this about Charlotte, if any of you are listening, from Charlotte, the community has been wonderful, like raising money for Western NC, donating, like supply runs, etc., so many businesses where we are that are doing those things. And you know, that's also just a very emotional experience to just see the communities come together, and to see the community back in Western North Carolina, and Asheville right now, like, organizing, supporting all the people who are in it, who are boots on the ground, just like doing donations, supply runs, showing up as volunteers. It's just amazing when a catastrophe or disaster hits, and how the community just really bands together to support one another. It's unbelievably beautiful to witness while simultaneously also being heart-wrenching.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I think that's so well said. I mean, we've seen that in moments in history where catastrophe breaks us open and it also brings us together. Like, it kind of brings to light all these things we've been fighting over. I mean, it's kind of the existential perspective shift that can bring us together.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Things get perspective shifts very quickly when you're in moments like this, like things that felt important do not feel important anymore.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's amazing how that happens overnight or in a weird Airbnb with this beeping sound that I cannot find, and it's-
MEGAN NEFF: That's got to be fun for you.
PATRICK CASALE: Talk about that too, you know? And then, there's also like, for those of us who are autistic, or ADHD, or neurodivergent and struggle with routine disruption, and task disruption, and being out of a comfort zone, even if you're in a safe place, being able to try to regulate yourself enough to your new surroundings and environment, and all of the new sensory stuff, and all of the new routines, and all of the unknown is so hard. Like, that's the stuff that a lot of people are really struggling with right now in my circles, and I mean, the spaces that I show up in.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when we were kind of texting last week, I liked how you framed it like last week was kind of for dissociation of… And I know you haven't been sleeping well, which makes so much sense.
And then, it seemed like you were really intentionally, you're trying to build structure back into your life. Like, that's why we're recording today. It's like you wanted some anchor points of familiarity. And I think finding those anchor points when we're amidst instability can be very stabilizing. And I'm watching you, like, stretch to find some small anchor points of stability as you move forward.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Just trying to find some semblance of some normalcy in your life, something to look forward to, even because I don't even want to go down the road of special interest grief, but I was supposed to be landing in New Zealand today to go on a two-week Lord of the Rings tour that I've been waiting for, for three years. And I ended up canceling that because I just was like, I was having this ethical dilemma where I was like, cannot leave my wife, and our dogs, and everything else during this event. And she kept saying, like, "I'll be fine. We'll figure it out. We'll go to my parents. We'll be okay."
But as soon as that decision was no longer black and white, 100% yes, for me, it had to be a no. And there's grief around that. That's a privileged thing to have grief around.
But it's amazing when we are looking forward to something for so long, and then, all of a sudden, that thing cannot happen. And it's just incredible, like, because so many of us use vacations to look forward to something, right? To like, okay, if I just get through X, Y, and Z months, I'll get to this vacation. And so, it's a complete rearrangement of everything.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean vacations, but also just future. Like, I feel like I've heard you say it here on this podcast, like, I'm going to get through my season of retreats, and then, I have, like, this several months break before I start retreat season again.
And I think I do that a lot too, of like, I'll get through this busy season, and then, I'll have this season that will look this way. And life sometimes has other plans.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, life [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:54] and life does not care. So, you know, I think it's just about now figuring out what comes next for so many of us in that area. This is going to be a long rebuilding road. I think that there's so much unknown when you're hearing like we might get water back in a couple of weeks. It might be a couple of months. We don't really know. Like 1800 miles of pipeline got destroyed and…
MEGAN NEFF: 1800 miles?
PATRICK CASALE: It's not an easy place to, like, put these things in place in the mountains, and then, these higher elevations. So, it's a situation where people are making do. I'm seeing a lot of, like, beautiful moments happening before my eyes. But again, like, who knows what comes next, in that regard? We don't know if we'll have water in our house next week or in January. So, everything becomes an unknown. When we're looking for rentals, it's like, do we stay until the new year? Do we stay for a month? Like, it's a really weird-
MEGAN NEFF: So, your autistic mind must love all that uncertainty.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for those of you listening at home and are not watching, clearly, it's sarcasm in Megan's voice. Yeah, it's a nightmare in that regard. Like, being unable to plan for things, or being unable to, like, have consistency, and routine, and things that feel familiar are now kind of all up in the air.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: So, you know, I know a lot of people who are listening are living in Western NC, or have been impacted directly or indirectly. And if you're one of the therapists who's been rallying, donating sessions, donating your time, donating your resources, if you're a human who's just doing the same, I mean, I appreciate it very much, and I know the entire community does as well.
And there's just been a huge movement into advocacy and trying really hard to have some organizations and groups of people who are doing these things. And a lot of these people are definitely a part of the autistic or ADHD communities. It's amazing to see all the neurodivergent advocacy that's happening. Yeah, it's really incredible to witness, and despite everyone struggling simultaneously, still showing up, and people really care. And I think that matters a lot to everyone who's listening and to everyone who's been impacted.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's been really powerful to see that as well. And I know like, you're doing some of that, and I do think, I'm, like, pausing, I'm not sure I want to go here. I'm not sure if I want to go into, like, theorizing and grief or if I just want to stay in the experience. But I'll say it, we'll decide if we want to stick with it or we want to pivot from this.
You've been doing a fundraiser. And one of the things we know about grief is, like, meaning-making as part of like, when we're moving through grief, when we're moving through crisis, anything that makes us feel a little bit more empowered. Like, you left Asheville. I'm sure you had a lot of, you know, that complex grief around that, and just complex feelings around being able to leave. And you turned around and you were like, let me figure out how I can help my community. And that sort of meaning-making can cultivate that sense of agency when we're in middle of crisis, when we're able to do that.
And it's been meaningful for me to watch as you've leaned into that, both supporting your community, but also, like, there's so much out of my control here. Okay, maybe I can do some fundraising and like, get people some of those basic needs they need.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a great point. And I appreciate you naming that. I think a lot people similar to myself are experiencing things that are similar in that nature. I wanted to do something. I couldn't do nothing.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And you know, there are so many people who are like in the thick of it right now, who are, like, doing supply runs, checking on missing people, running donations. I know that can't be me, and that's something I came to terms with last week. Is like, I'm better suited at using my platform to grow this fundraiser, to provide people with donations, and money, and real-time aid. I know I would be too overwhelmed doing things on the ground every day and every second.
I worry for some of my friends who are in it and doing that all day, every day because they are in go mode, right? But like, they're going to hit that wall eventually. And I definitely hit it even collecting donations, and sharing, and getting it in front of people, and dispersing it. I definitely hit a wall the other day where I just completely crashed, and I was like, "I've got to get off technology."
But I do think it's the best way I can show up right now is to raise money. I mean, in the last 10 days we've probably raised 20,000 total dollars, and we've dispersed it to people who really are in need. Like, for me, that is the best thing I can do at the moment. And that will probably change in the future as energy changes, situations change, etc., but like, right now, it's definitely the best thing I can do, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you said that and that you went there. I've had this experience, and I've seen this experience with a lot of neurodivergent adults. I mean, we've lived through a lot of significant cultural moments the last handful of years. And so, like, you know, I live in Oregon, so like, when Black Lives Matter protests were at the height of it, we've, like, the protests around Palestine and advocacy around what's happening in the Middle East. Like, we've lived through a lot.
And I've always felt so much guilt that I'm not someone who could go to those… Going to a protest would, I don't know, I think I'd be more of a liability than a help given all of the things that I hold. And for me, my advocacy has looked a lot quieter. It's probably looked similar to yours around raising funds and finding ways to do that. But I see this a lot for a lot of, especially, autistic advocates, we're so sensitive. Like, just as sensitive. But some of the classic advocacy routes are not as accessible for us, and so finding ways of like, how can I contribute? How can I tap into this movement and in a way that works with my natural gifts? That works for me?
So, I love how you even were able to sit back and be like, okay, doing the daily runs, I'm going to burn out, and I'm not going to be very helpful after 48 hours of that, but I can do this. And that's significant what you've done.
PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. Yeah, it is one of those things where I had some guilt about not being in it, getting out of it, seeing things from, you know, being able to take that first shower. I was like, "Oh my God. I've never…" It's just amazing how much we take things for granted sometimes.
And I just very quickly realized, like I was trying to be involved. I was trying to, like, coordinate all the resources and, like, navigate that all on social media. And it became so overwhelming for me. And I was just like, I can't do this. I think what I can do is I can raise money and I can get it to the people who need it.
And I think it's important that everyone kind of understands their strengths, and their capabilities, and where they best show up. Because I know if I was, like you said, going daily into Asheville and making supply runs, like there's no way I could do it. I mean, I don't want to see the devastation firsthand any more than I already have being there, and then, like, social media is filled with it, and understandably so. But like, just like constant re-traumatization too, of like trauma response, trauma response, trauma response, you become so numb to it that you kind of do go into that dissociation mode, like I was saying before. Like, definitely spend, like, four or five days there where was either being in shock or dissociated or, I don't know. But nothing felt real. Like, just nothing felt real.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is such a common response, right? And back to, like, dissociation, like it's protective. We do it for a reason, right? It's too much to feel.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I actually, like, thanked that part of myself the other day because I think in the past that would be like, I'm trying to figure out why am I dissociating? Why am I going into this place? And in reality, I was like, you know, I know this is a protective response, and this is one I need right now.
It's hard as someone with, you know, both of us as people with audiences and followings. Then it just meant like everything felt a bit magnified or intensified when it came to, like, communication stuff.
So, like, as soon as I got cell data from that point on, messages, emails, texts, all the things, and people… So, like, meaning, well, checking in, trying to figure out if we're okay, it got so overwhelming I had to start making like blanket statement posts on my Facebook wall where it was like, "Cannot respond to all of these things. Appreciate it." Right? Like, really trying hard to set those boundaries because I would have, in the past, went down that rabbit hole of, like, responding to every single one and making sure I saw it. And I was just like, I can't. Like, I cannot do it. I appreciate it. We appreciate it. And we also just have to back away from this to the best of our ability. Because, again, yeah, acknowledging that this is not an acute crisis situation. Like, this is long term. And I think that's a weird thing to be in, too, mentally, where you're like, "This is not going to be fixed by next week."
Like, people lost everything in the blink of an eye, and they're still searching for thousands of people who are missing. And it's just one of those things where the very real reality sets in in terms of the severity of the situation. And if we're in it all the time, when we don't have to be, then it's, you know, am I doing more harm than good by doing that? And I think the answer in that situation would be yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember where I heard this, but I feel like I heard this somewhere. And I really like it because, well, okay, first kind of anecdote. There was a time a few days ago I had to remind myself, you're you and not me. Because for me, I think I get overwhelmed by digital, I think, pings coming in much more easily than you do. So, if it was me, I think I would just kind of want space. But I was like, "Wait, it's Patrick. I do want him to know I'm thinking about him." So, I did ping you, but I was very aware like, I'm sure he's oversaturated with this.
But I think, again, I can't remember where I heard this, but I just think it's helpful advice for like, when you're supporting someone in grief, especially, in that first week, you know whether it's a like climate crisis, like this, or whether it is a disaster, or whether it's a loss, people do often get a lot of those questions, which I think can be experienced, like, how are you doing? Right? Like, the experience is an incoming demand. I think some of the most supportive messages I know for me that I've received during moments of grief are like, "I'm thinking of you." And it's a, I'm thinking of you, you don't need to respond. But just like, know that you're not alone in this. You're on my mind. And I think those sorts of messages can be so helpful when supporting people in middle of crisis and middle of grief.
I also think that people often don't realize is people are in that grief so much longer. So, like, right? You're probably getting so many messages this week next week, probably after this podcast airs. But in six months, when you all are still rebuilding Asheville, like those thinking of you tend to dwindle down. And I think that's when grief, again, more so with personal loss, but that's when it can start feeling really hard. Is like, yeah, the world has moved on from this, and I'm still grieving six months later. And so, those touch-ins can be, I think, really supportive when we remember that people's life is still on some sort of pause, whether it's rebuilding a life or because of grief, and doing those touch-ins in those moments.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's perfectly said. And I appreciate your check-ins. And I appreciate you naming like, you know, different needs, different people, right? And, yeah, for me, I definitely was seeking connection post-event, especially, like, as soon as we came out of that three or four days to like void. But then, ultimately, it was, like, it became very overwhelming. So, what I appreciated from the majority of people like, who I'm actually friends with, and connected with who'd be, like, "Thinking of you, no need to respond." And for me, that really felt like being seen in that moment, like you just said, opposed to like, "Hey, how are you doing? Like, how's it going over there. Check-in to make sure you're okay." And just like…
And again, I think people have the best of intentions, and in situations where we don't know what to do, we oftentimes are just like, "Hi. How are you?" Like, it's almost like recognizing like I need to reach out to you to soothe my own anxiety about making sure you're okay [CROSSTALK 00:34:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, only because people want information, and that's like-
PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, exactly, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Or exactly what you're saying to soothe their own anxiety around is Patrick okay, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I don't think it's like ill-intentioned, but I think it…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no.
PATRICK CASALE: … can come off with like different motivation or different urgency levels from me on the receiving end. So, that's one thing I've learned from you to some degree, is like, better boundaries with my social media, better boundaries with my responsiveness, making one big post saying that we're alive instead of responding to 100 people telling them that we're alive.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yep.
PATRICK CASALE: So, work in progress. And you know, it's just one of those things.
And I'll tell you another stressor, and not that I want to continue going down the stressor road, but we were supposed to leave… Our plan was Charlotte until Friday. Airbnb ran out because they were booked. I mean, everyone in Western North Carolina is evacuating here or elsewhere, or nearby. And of course, people are exploiting it by gouging prices[CROSSTALK 00:35:27]-
MEGAN NEFF: I was worried about that. I was like, I bet Airbnbs are, like, doubling-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:35:30] and like, tripling. Yeah, it's wild. Like a two-week stay $5,000 situations.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness.
PATRICK CASALE: So, we were going to go down to Florida, to where my dad lives. Well, it's October and hurricane season now. St. Pete is bracing for a category five that is hitting down there on Wednesday. So, pivot again. Hopefully, all of you listening, if you're in the Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater area are okay. But, yeah, it's just like one of those things where it's like, yesterday was so unbelievably stressful for me, as I'm trying to, like, find a new place for us to go, and it has to check a few boxes. Like, it has to be pet friendly. It has to be close enough where Arielle can get back if she has to go to work. Like, there are a lot of moving pieces. So, I was just striking out, like, time, and, time, and time again. And like that was so unsettling yesterday and so frustrating.
I woke up this morning and went back on and did my search again. And there was a new rental that must have just popped up this morning in East Nashville, Tennessee. And it was available from like Friday, when we leave here for 30 days, pet-friendly, checked all the boxes. And it's just like instantaneous relief because it's just like, I know that I'm not the only one in that position, like frantically trying to figure that out. And it's just so overwhelming, you know?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much unpredictability as you look forward.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So much and a lot to rebuild. And again, I just think that the community of not just Asheville because Asheville is getting a lot of the publicity, and, you know, it's the biggest city, for sure, but there are so many little towns, and villages, and areas that are not even being talked about. So, just know that a lot of people are thinking about you all, and are donating what they can, and trying to support however they can, and just really seeing the communities of Western North Carolina come together is pretty incredible. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That's a deep sigh.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. You know, it's good to connect with you, and I appreciate you trying to create some normalcy in my life. And we don't have to, like, be a broken record about this right now. I know so many of you who listen and support us live in that area and just do whatever you can, you know, to support your systems, and to support yourselves, and our community, and their families, and friends. And that's going to look different for everybody who's listening.
MEGAN NEFF: What is supporting you right now, Patrick? Like, what is helping you?
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I like to stay busy, Megan.
MEGAN NEFF: I do know that, yes.
PATRICK CASALE: I think, you know, trying to anchor into some normalcy because the next month and a half was completely cleared on my calendar to be gone in New Zealand and elsewhere. So, instead of doing the typical, like, let me overload my schedule, I'm just trying to find, like, a couple of things I can do consistently, that I can look forward to, not a lot of high demand behind them, which allows me to just have that in between luminal space of like dissociation, laying on the couch, watching TV, walking the dogs 500 times because they're driving us insane. And I think that's really it. Like, I do appreciate the check-ins without expectations. I think those feel really good and supportive as well right now, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been kind of wondering and thinking if… And you can let me know your thoughts on this, but been thinking, maybe we follow up this conversation with, I know a few therapists working in like climate anxiety, I mean, and I think climate anxiety is gosh, like an interesting beast because climate collapse is very real. Like, I think, your situation highlights that. And that kind of anxiety, I haven't dove into it, personally, but I feel like it's a unique anxiety to address because, like, the crisis is real. So, I don't know if you'd have interest in following up this conversation with maybe bringing some folks on to talk about things like climate collapse, climate anxiety, psychology disaster, or disaster psychology. But-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I know that like, so, right there's people right now, in this moment, feeling this in Western North Carolina. And then, I also know, sadly, this globalizes. There's people whether it is war or conflict that leads to just displacement or it's natural disaster. There's so many people who are or will experience place disruption, place displacement, and the crisis, and the trauma that goes with that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I would be very interested in having that conversation. I mean, I've always known this was a very real thing. It's really weird when it hits you directly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to know, like, okay, the, like, atmosphere is warming and we're losing this much of the Arctic. Like, when it's theoretical, and then when it's literally, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. When it's in your backyard, no pun intended.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's deep, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That definitely went through my mind many, many times during the last 10 days or so. Is like we are in the mountains of North Carolina and Tennessee. This is not supposed to be happening, but it is happening.
So, you know, when I was calling my dad during all this, he's in St. Pete. He got hit by the same hurricane. It was very damaging down there too, but not nearly as damaging as in Western North Carolina. And he lost power for like two nights, and he's like fine. And I'm thinking to myself, "We're in North Carolina in the mountains, like you're on the coast. How is this reality right now?"
MEGAN NEFF: I was even reading about how like, Asheville was kind of prized as this, like, it's actually a safe haven from climate collapse for all these reasons. And so, then to see this happen in Western North Carolina, like, that was really eye-opening for me to, like, wow. Like, no place is safe [INDISCERNIBLE 00:42:29] that we're seeing.
PATRICK CASALE: We have a lot of colleagues and friends who move there from like New Orleans, or Florida or, you know, post Katrina and, "We'll never have to deal with this again. We're leaving this behind, like, all the trauma." And then, all of a sudden, it's like, here we are.
But, yeah, I would love to have that conversation. I think it's important and necessary one. And since so many of us are really rooted firmly in our values, and our beliefs, and the things we want to advocate for, I mean, I really think it's an important one to have, and not just existentially, but in reality. So, happy to do that at some point, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm reading your body language. I think you're done with this conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there's only so much we can talk about at this stage with this stuff, you know? And I think the gist of it is out there. I'm also really annoyed by the beeping sound that keeps happening every like three minutes, and I'm trying to time it correctly by muting myself.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness. I'm not hearing that.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:35]. Okay, that's good. So, let me just walk you through the first day here, so you all can get a good understanding of, like, this experience. We get here to Charlotte, we get to this Airbnb, we check in. My basset hound immediately gets stung in the face by a bunch of hornets in the backyard because there's a bunch of hornet's nest that are burrowing into the ground.
I go out there with the guy who owns the Airbnb to spray said hornet's nests. I then get stung multiple times in my ankle because one gets caught in between my sock and shoe. And it was just like, "Well, this is great. This…"
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:44:11].
PATRICK CASALE: It was just…
MEGAN NEFF: This is just like the cherry on top of this.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. Like we get here, we're like, "Okay, we're so relieved." And then, immediately it's just like, "Oh, God."
Anyway, I had other thoughts. Another thought of grief was just like leaving your home behind and not knowing when you're going to go back to it. It's a very weird feeling. But there's no coherent thoughts around that right now. It's just a thought that I'm having.
And yeah, all I would say is, whatever you all can do who are listening to donate whether it's to nonprofits, whether it's to the organizations that are flying in supplies via helicopter and doing search and rescue, whether it's just by sharing and supporting people you know who are impacted. I mean, I have a GoFundMe that I've created, specifically, for people who were impacted, where I'm giving the money directly to those places and people. Whatever you can do at this point in time is appreciated by everyone in that area.
And I think it's just, if you are listening, and you're impacted, and you're also struggling, you're definitely not alone. And you know, there are tons of resources out there right now for support. And whether it's pro bono therapy, people are giving a lot of pro bono therapy right now. If you're a therapist and you need therapy or support, you know it definitely exists and is accessible. I think it's just all hands on deck at this point in time for Appalachia, Western North Carolina, and everywhere else that's being impacted by all the things we've talked about.
So, thank you, Megan, for doing this today, and for checking on me, and being a good friend because getting your text messages in my momentary blips of cell data was definitely very, very helpful and heartwarming from you and several others, and really means a lot to me and to my family, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Are we done? I don't know if we're done.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was feeling something. I don't know what it was. I don't know that I have words for it. I think we can be done.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: And yeah, I'm hoping that this is a conversation to be continued in the sense of, yeah, these are experiences that are very real from very many people and…
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, yeah. Thank you for having it today.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm glad you were feeling up for connecting of it feels good to connect with you. It feels good to see you, you know. Like, I knew you were, you know, physically okay, but also, know you're in it. It just feels good to be with you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. To those who are listening to this podcast, we do have more episodes on OCD coming out. And I don't even know when this episode is going to come out. I have no idea where time is right now. My GoFundMe is at atppod.com/wnc. And just stay safe. And we will see all next week.
MEGAN NEFF: Bye.
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. This is Patrick. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about Asheville, North Carolina, and Western North Carolina, and all of the areas that have been impacted by Hurricane Helene.
As a lot of you know, I live in Asheville. I've called it home for the last 13 years. It's my community. It's where my friends, my family, our small businesses, our lives are, and everything was completely destroyed last week during Hurricane Helene. If you haven't seen the coverage on social media, or on TV, or the news, it's devastating all around. The destruction is like nothing you've ever seen. The mountains of Appalachia are certainly not a place for a category-four hurricane.
My friends have lost their houses. Our communities have lost people. Businesses are completely destroyed, homes are destroyed, the infrastructure is destroyed, and it's going to be a long rebuild.
I am asking you to donate, share, do what you can. I have created a GoFundMe that is found at atppod.com/wnc, will be linked in the show notes, and will also be available in my linked in bio, on my Instagram profiles as well, anything helps.
This money will go to nonprofits who are boots on the ground. They will go to individuals who are struggling, who do not have enough money to get gas, to get out, or do not have enough money to provide their basic needs right now. It's really, really devastating, and we appreciate anything that you can offer.
So, that is found at atppod.com/wnc. Again, I will link that in both my profiles, in my LinkedIn bio, as well as the show notes. You can also just visit my personal Facebook page, Patrick Casale, my Instagram, Patrick Casale, and just keep Western North Carolina and all of its people in your thoughts. Thank you.
