Episode 69: Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs (#5): Unmasking The Person and Professional [featuring Maureen Werrbach]
Aug 29, 2024
Show Notes
Navigating the complexities of personal identity and public presentation can be incredibly challenging, especially for those in the neurodivergent community with later-in-life discovery who have crafted a well-established public identity and role.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, meet with Maureen Werrbach to discuss the complexities of finding balance between personal identity and public presentation. This deep dive into the experiences of neurodivergent individuals shines a light on the challenges and triumphs of embracing one's true self amidst societal and professional expectations.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Immerse yourself in the personal journeys of Maureen Werrbach, Patrick Casale, and Dr. Neff as they discuss how their diagnoses of ADHD and autism have reshaped their lives both personally and professionally. Hear firsthand accounts of unmasking and embracing authentic identities.
- Gain insights into the power of vulnerability, and the fine balance required to share personal experiences publicly without losing oneself. Understand how different mediums of communication can impact this delicate balance.
- Explore the intersection of identity and leadership, particularly for neurodivergent individuals. Learn from Maureen’s experience of integrating her social justice beliefs and personal values into her business, and the importance of creating accountable and inclusive leadership teams.
As you listen to this episode, reflect on your own journey of self-discovery and how you can embrace and advocate for your true self. Consider how your unique identity shapes your interactions and contributions, both in your personal and professional life.
More about Maureen:
Maureen developed her coaching program, The Group Practice Exchange, based not only on her own experience with starting her private practice but also growing it into a successful group practice.
She spent countless hours researching how to start a private practice (the legal and procedural steps) and then many more hours learning how to grow it into a group (again trying to figure out the appropriate steps). Through trial and error, she learned what works and what doesn’t in running a counseling group practice.
Maureen thoroughly enjoy helping clinicians become confident and organized group practice business owners.
- Website: thegrouppracticeexchange.com
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: Resilient Mind Counseling & Learning Nook
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. Thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. This is the last week of our Neurodivergent Entrepreneur series. And we have an awesome guest on to talk about her business journey as a late-in-life diagnosed autistic ADHDer.
She is a really good friend of mine and colleague and well known in the mental health entrepreneurial spaces, Maureen Werrbach, who is a therapist, group practice owner in the Chicago area. She is the founder of The Group Practice Exchange. I personally think one of the most helpful membership sites if you are in the mental health entrepreneurial spaces and thinking about growing your business. She is a speaker, an author, probably more things that I can't think of right now, a leadership coach, and strategist.
And really happy to have you on. And I know you hate bios, so anything I missed?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: No.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, good. Yeah, we were just talking about before we were recording three autistic ADHD people in a room, in a Zoom room. This is going to be an interesting transition segment where we try to figure out who's talking and when.
I wanted to have you on, specifically, because, obviously, like, over the last couple years I've gotten to know you really well and you've become a really good friend. But your journey is a great one to highlight. And you were diagnosed autistic last year, right?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, maybe a little over a year ago, something like that, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, can you tell us a little bit about your journey into the neurodivergent space in terms of, like, hey, what made me pursue this process? What was the catalyst? And like, what was happening behind the scenes?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Sure, so I was diagnosed ADHD in college. But like, it was a very weird experience because a psychiatrist kind of sort of flippantly was like, "Yep, but you're a straight A student, and you've, like, never gotten a B in your life, so clearly you're good."
And, you know, I was young, and didn't realize that that was even something that he was assessing. And so, I was just, was like, "All right, cool."
So, I did nothing with the information for all of these years. And didn't realize that, you know, just because I did well in school, which from the outside perspective looked easy, but from the inside perspective was, like, if you were in my brain and in my bedroom while I was studying was a very different experience. But, you know, that's all the teachers saw was good grades and a quiet student who, you know, had perfectionism, and didn't want to move too much, and didn't want to, you know, be kind of front and center or seen at all in school. Like, I was easy to bypass very easily.
So, yeah, that was it until, like, almost 40. And I met you in person, finally. Yeah, and we were speaking at Ajita's conference in… Oh my gosh, Maryland. And you and I met up at a bar. And I don't know, I think you and I might have a slightly different story as to how quickly you said this. I felt like it was pretty immediate, like maybe within an hour, where you were like, "Oh my gosh, you know you're so autistic, right?"
And I remember, like, this sense of relief, in a way, because I, maybe for the past year, had been looking stuff up, but feeling very much, like, similar with the ADHD, like, I don't present in the stereotypical ways, right? And what I had known.
And I have an older child who's non-binary autistic and then my younger child is ADHD. But in, like, kind of observing my eldest child I was like, you know, they'd been diagnosed since they were very young, but we presented very differently, you know? At least in terms of how they interact in school and all of that kind of stuff.
And so, I was like, you know, initially, never thought about it until they got older. They're a teenager. And I'm starting to see myself in them a lot. And so, maybe a year or two ago, maybe two years ago, I started looking into it, and I was like, "I don't know. I don't want to be in a space that I feel like others will probably in the space will judge."
I'm also a late-in-life lesbian. And I remember I was out as bi for a long time, and always wouldn't tell people because I was like, you know, the bi stigma in even the queer community. So, I kind of felt similarly of like, I'm afraid to even journey in because I'm doing okay, I thought. And so, it wasn't until you kind of said it where it almost gave me the permission to allow myself to, you know, be tested, and then get that diagnosis.
But yeah, it was a fun experience having you say that because I know you bring up like, you know, it's a very testy sort of place to be in and to be like "you're autistic" to a person. And for me, it was like a welcoming sort of release. And, you know, the start of actually doing any sort of work to get the diagnosis.
PATRICK CASALE: When we start this podcast we always do the same thing, rock back and forth and look at each other like "Who's going to unmute first?" I was just paying attention to that.
I love that you say that it offered relief. Like, I've talked about this publicly with your story before. Obviously, that is a gamble in any situation to just tell someone that information. I felt safe enough to do that with you considering we were like friends, and we were deep-diving a lot of personal stuff that day, so it just felt like the right time. It could have gone off the rails very quickly, though. And that could have been received very differently. So, I just want to name that for people who are listening.
With that being said, when you say relief, like, I even saw it as you just said it, like you were just like, "And I felt this relief." Like, viscerally physically feeling that experience. So, can you tell us a little bit about, like, how that has reframed your perspective, not just in your business, but in your day-to-day and in your life.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah. I remember that day with you was the first day that I realized that I mask a lot. And it's been, like, a whole journey of like "Who is me? Who's the real me?" Since then.
But I remember it was the first time that, you know, I always was told that I was weird. I didn't have a lot of friends, you know, that whole thing. And so, I just chalked it up to like, I'm an only child and, you know, an immigrant, and just couldn't connect with the, like, American stuff when I was younger, and my mom didn't help with that. And I just kind of chalked it up to that.
And I remember when I sat with you that day, like, you talked a lot about, you know, just eye contact, and you know, kind of sitting parallel and not having to give a lot of eye contact. And I remember being like, in that conversation, or that whole day of conversations, very, like, allowed to kind of just be and didn't realize I had been performing a lot before then. And so, I want to start by saying that, to your question of just like, I just had this experience of being like, "Oh, I can have a conversation."
I remember going everywhere from like one point to another, is probably a mix of my ADHD parts and autistic parts at the time being, like, very, like, held by you, maybe, you know? Like, I could just be. And so, it was my first experience of just feeling so comfortable in my skin and like, allowing myself to explore what could I be? Who could I be? That I haven't been allowed to explore.
Since then, it shaped a lot of, like, I think for my whole life I've been very sensitive to other people's judgments. And although that's not, you know, completely changed 180, getting that diagnosis has helped me be a little bit more kind to myself, and kind of be like, I am me. So, I know, you know, I'll always probably be weird to some people, and now there's a lot less shame tied to it where, like, when I was younger, and as a teen, in my early 20s I tried really hard to fit in. And now I'm just like, I'm okay being on the outside a little bit. And there's my few people who understand my quirks and things that are maybe not, you know, average, and they allow it. They allow space for it.
PATRICK CASALE: Sounds very similar to like, you have some similarities to Megan's story. You've talked a lot about the same things, Megan, growing up, and going through college, and experiencing life in a lot of similar ways. I know Maureen as like an immigrant, of like a German parent and a military family. There was a lot of rigidity in the home. And I know a lot of it was like, chalked up to like, "This is why I am the way that I am."
And I think it's impressive when we're able to, like, unmask and just kind of embrace ourselves for the first time. I think it's still a learning process for me. Like, three years into my diagnosis journey and experience, like I still am trying to figure out who I am.
I know Megan, you've talked about, like, ChatGPTing hobbies before to figure out, like, what do I even do that I enjoy? And I think that this is kind of one of the most, I don't want to say liberating, but freeing experiences once you finally put that lens to your perspective and your experience to kind of, like, start to make sense of things that haven't made sense for so long, and how it impacts you, not only personally, but like because this is an entrepreneurial series too. Like, it impacts our business decisions. It impacts what we want to do with the information that we have, and how we want to apply it.
Megan, I know for you, like, you've talked about how your special interests turned into your business. Like, that's really what happened for you post diagnosis, right? Like, I think that happens to a lot of us where all of a sudden you start to see everything through a new lens. And if you can incorporate your special interest as well it feels like really, really aligned.
So, Megan, any feelings or thoughts about that for yourself, in general?
MEGAN NEFF: I had an association, if I can, like, bring it back to mind, and it's still kind of a half-baked thought. But this idea of, kind of, all of the narratives we have that explain our weirdness, yeah, I absolutely relate to that as well, that there's a lot of other explanations for, like, why I would struggle to truly break into the group. And how those questions pre-discovery, for me was from a place of constriction, often, of like, trying to figure out the equation of, like, what's wrong with me?
And once I discovered I was autistic, it became a slightly different question. It became a more expansive question of like, I am different, and let me lean into that difference, and let me see what freedom and liberation comes on the other side of setting aside social constructs. I mean, I think I've always set aside social constructs. But, like, I've always been clumsy with what society deems normal. But I was trying to fit into it.
And then, after diagnosis, the way I approach the question around difference, it's from an expansive place. A place of let's lean into this, let's explore other identities. We've talked about that a lot, like, with the intersection of queer identities, and neurodivergent identities, and gender identities.
And so, the energy around how I experience my mis-fitness absolutely shifted once I had a narrative or a lens that made sense of it and gave me freedom to queer. I love the use of queer as an action, as the ability to queer and to break free of a lot of the kind of social constructs that we're trying to fit ourselves into for much of our life.
And I think that's what entrepreneurs often are doing. I just heard that in an interview I was listening to yesterday where someone was saying, I think it was a psychiatrist was saying, "You know, a lot of creators are misfits and that's why they enter this world, is because the traditional school systems, the traditional work systems didn't work for us." And I thought that was such an interesting take on creators. And I was like, "Yep, that makes sense. That makes sense that a lot of us are misfits."
MAUREEN WERRBACH: That does make sense. Something that you just said reminded me of something my therapist told me when I first came out as lesbian three or four years ago. And she said, like, I don't remember exactly, like, "Welcome." But also, like, "You're coming out of this closet and you're going to see how many other closets, like, that is possible for you to come out of."
Like, there's something about coming out of that closet, I guess, where she's like, you start to see how many closets, like, society has that you don't even realize you might be in. And I'm thinking about that even from like a neurodivergent perspective, you know? Because that came afterwards. And I wonder if my own openness to exploring that because I obviously knew I had the ADHD diagnosis forever and just was like, you know, "Whatever." That maybe coming out has helped me even be willing to, like, open other doors and just look in, like, you know, all the little doors that there are to, like, that society sort of says is not an appropriate door to come out of.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that quote from your therapist so much. Once you come out of that closet, what other closets? Yeah, I've had a similar thing I say, kind of, like, once you start queering one identity, it's contagious, and you start kind of queering all of your identities, in the sense of, like, how do I embrace freedom? How do I embrace liberation? How do I authentically lean into me?
And so, absolutely, I see so much queering that happens of all the identities. And it's interesting. Like, I notice some people's access point, their first one is embracing, maybe, like a non-binary identity, or maybe it's embracing a sexually queer identity, or maybe it's embracing a neurodivergent identity. But then, like, it so often does lead to these other doors. But once you do one, it's so much more likely that you can think expansively about other identities. It's such a fun process to watch. I do miss that about therapy. Like, that identity process is scary, but also such an exciting and expansive time in people's lives.
PATRICK CASALE: I have this visual of, like, standing in front of a cabinet or a dresser, and like pulling these drawers out right now as you were talking about those things like, and just examining them.
But I think, again, like you both said, being way more open to other identities and then being really curious about exploring them too, and not just, like, shutting the door and pretending that it doesn't exist or wishing it away, but really trying hard to figure it out and embrace it and accept it too. To have some different perspective on who we are as human beings is so, so important. So, I think it's huge.
Focusing back on like you're a leadership coach, you're well known in the industry, in terms of how you show up. Megan and I talked about values-aligned business with, Megan, is it Corey Wilkes, is that correct?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, a couple episodes ago. How do your values align with your business? Because I know you personally, so I know this is a really important part of everything you do. But I think this is also something we talked about as neurodivergent, especially, autistic ADHD people being really, like, staunchly invested in our values that we have, in aligning our businesses to them.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I don't think I realized until this year the why behind my business values, that they were so connected to, like, my, like, social justice.
So, like, almost sometimes when I step outside of myself in a way I don't want to, but, like, almost from, like, trying to be neurotypical lens, not purposefully, but, like, historical, just being used to that, looking down at myself I'm like, "Sometimes you're a little annoying about your, like, level of like, you know right and wrong, and you know justice for, you know, certain peoples, and all of this."
But I feel like it wasn't until my diagnosis that I was doing research on, like, that a lot of times that can be tied to being autistic is like having this, like, sense of, like, wanting, like, rightness for people, and like, those that are not given opportunities like that, that I need to, like, step in and, like, do my own work, to, like, at least make the space around me what I feel like is aligned with my values.
So, my businesses are both, like, led from an anti-oppressive standpoint. And obviously, as a white woman, I do a lot of work on my own to see what my impact is as a white woman and as a business owner who employs lots of people, many of whom are BIPOC.
And I think I just realized, in the past, I don't know, year or so, that, like, embracing my own values in the business versus like seeing the business as almost like it has its own values, you know what I'm saying? Like, I felt like for so long I saw my business, of course, as a separate entity for myself, but almost like that those values just kind of existed there, that I, like, gave them, but that I didn't realize that they were my own, you know, in some ways?
And it wasn't until, yeah, probably about a year ago that I was like, well, it makes so much sense why I'm so, like, heels dug in the ground about certain values that I have, like, anti-oppression, and just, like, feeling like it probably came hand in hand with the realization of my being autistic.
I don't know. Do you guys have that? Like, just real, I don't know, I just visualize, like, heels dug in the ground about certain things. And for me, one of those is like, what I feel, like, could be almost an annoying amount of, like, anti-oppression conversations in everything. And like, researching it, and then telling people about it, and then being like, "How is this impacting work? How is this…"
And like, I know, Patrick, you've talked about it, just diving so much into, like, being autistic, and just talking about it non-stop. And I feel like that's almost like my like, little segue is the anti-oppression work.
MEGAN NEFF: There's a great article by Tara Vance on neoclassic. Perhaps you've seen it, but I think the headline is something like, Autistic People Don't Have Values, We Are Our Values. And this idea of, like, how integrated our values are to our identity and with that also our interests.
But what you're saying, actually, I saw it back when I was doing assessments. This is one that can be really hard to tease out, is when social justice is a special interest, or especially when it's also tied to an identity.
So, for example, like queer people who are really into queer theory because it makes sense to be really passionate about these things. And these are things that, like, typically, if you're passionate about social justice, it's with some intensity. And so, then teasing out, okay, like, but is this a special interest or is this…?
But yeah, I absolutely see this often kind of that justice sensitivity, but then on top of that, where it's also a special interest. And so, like, the reading about it. And the, like, yes, so absolutely, I experienced some of that and I also see a bit of it in our community.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I would agree, not strictly from the clinical side of it, but just the personal side of just, yeah, I feel like I'm pretty dug into the things that I feel are important and the things that I value.
And I'm kind of laughing when you're like, kind of being annoying about it. Like, I think when we… I was writing about that in the book that I'm writing about, like, post-discovery or diagnosis, like, wanting to scream it from the rooftops and just consistently like and constantly talk about and then apply autistic experience and lens to everything and every conversation and everything you do, and how people around you could possibly be like, "Can we talk about anything else, like, without having to loop this in, or this be the specific focal point."
So, I can see how that can be annoying. If any of my friends are listening that sometimes are annoyed, then, you know, I apologize, but it's like a sorry… not sorry experience because, like, I think it's so important to talk about this stuff and talk about it a lot, and with passion, and with curiosity because I think for so long so many of us have felt like we didn't have an outlet, we didn't have a safe place to do it, we didn't have the resources, or the education, or the knowledge.
I was just talking to someone on my podcast, on my other podcast about, like, I don't even think the word autism or ADHD was mentioned in my grad school program. I think it was mentioned if we did, like, child development, and that was like one class, and it was probably, like, looking at it from a very medical deficit-based model.
So, I do think for me, one value is like using my voice, and my privilege, and my platform to share my passion and my message. And to support people to feel more understood, and affirmed, and seen, and validated. And that is really fucking important to me.
So, I don't know, I just understand the annoyance piece, too. Like, I can see it in people's eyes sometimes when I'm talking about something, they're just like, "This isn't even on the topic. This isn't even what we're talking about."
MEGAN NEFF: I actually think this loops back into our earlier conversation about like, the, like, leaning into the mis-fitness of ourselves, of I think, especially, I would assume for all three of us, we spend so much energy and time trying to fit into the path that we thought we were supposed to, trying to fit into the norms, kind of suppressing, probably, our instinct to dig our heels in and talk a lot about whatever we were interested in.
So, I think this goes with, like, when we come out of the closet, and then we come out of the many closets, and then it's like, "Oh, wait, I am going to talk about this thing that I'm really passionate about." I think that's part of the kind of liberating experience of unmasking, of discovering who we are. Part of that becomes, also, becoming more vocal about our interests.
Because I see a lot of interest shame, like a lot of, where people will have a lot of shame about their interests, they're kind of embarrassed about how passionate they are about it because they, at some point, have learned like, "Oh, this is too much." And so, some people who will be very protective about talking about their interests, both because I think they're protecting it from negative feedback from others, but also just because people can develop shame around how passionate they are about whatever it is they're interested in.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: You bringing up mis-fitness, it's making me think of a couple things. One is that I've always been really scared to be othered because I never fit in. I always was trying to fit in. But ever since I was in high school, I've had colorful hair. I have a lot of facial piercings, lots of tattoos. I present, in a way, especially, as a business owner, in what wouldn't be a typical way.
And I am thinking about how, like, five or so years ago Natalie Edmond, she was my anti-racism coach, my individual one. She consults with my group practice for the past few years, but maybe five or so years ago was talking about privilege of, like, other people knowing or not knowing things about us. Like, a black person cannot be seen as black, right? But at the time, I was bi, and I was married to a man. I had the privilege of looking straight. And I was thinking about how I did a lot of things that, like, presentation-wise, to like almost tell people things without actually saying things. And it wasn't until last year where I became vocal about being a lesbian, about being autistic and ADHD, which was not something that was in my comfort zone because, for me, it's been a historical thing of, if you give information about yourself that is other or different, it's just ammunition for kids to use against you later.
And I don't know, the thing with Natalie saying, like, that's a privilege to be able to not share those things with something that, like, sparks some kind of fire from the social justice lens of like that is in a lot of ways unfair, and is kind of my duty to, like, not hide those things.
And I noticed that once I, you know, was vocal about my sexuality and being ADHD at the time, before getting the autistic diagnosis and starting to share that in work, like, as a leader, in my group practice, we made these identity cards that our new staff continue to make, that they can share whatever identities they want to share. And I remember that being kind of, like, the pivotal moment of where, like, acceptance and inclusivity, like, truly started happening in my business because we were always talking about it. But like, I think there was something about me not sharing myself in that way that probably was modeling shit, you know, all the way down.
And so, it's been a really long journey that I know, Patrick, you know, a little bit about of just, like, looking into every single policy and procedure we have, every single verbal and nonverbal thing that we do that is either, like, providing accessibility or not, I don't know. So, this like mis-fitness I know maybe goes in the whole circle right now. But is me trying to explain, I think, I was exploring my mis-fitness in a non-verbal way for a really long time, and it wasn't until my anti-racism coach Natalie was like, "That's a privilege that you can present in ways that don't show, you know, the fact that your sexuality or that don't show, you know, your neurodivergence and things like that where others don't have that ability."
MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. I've never thought about this before until hearing you talk about that. But I absolutely did that, too. Like, I actually just took out my nose piercing a year or two ago. But like when I was younger, I had a nose piercing. I had so many ear piercings. I had a tragus piercing. I had a tongue piercing. Like, I wore leather. I think I presented myself with the hard edge because I'm so soft. For one, that was protective. But also, I didn't have language for my mis-fitness, but I wanted to present it to the world.
And for me, as I've become more, like, out about being autistic, gender expansive, all of those things, I have softened. Like, I softened in how I present in the sense of, like, I'm pretty basic. I wear soft clothes. I don't have any piercings anymore. But I think there's less pressure to kind of visually show that as I've more explicitly been sharing my identities.
But yeah, I hadn't made that connection before about how we might visually be trying to communicate something that we don't yet have language for. Yeah, that, but also, like the whole conversation around intersecting identities and the ones that are visible versus invisible. And, like, I think that's such an important part of the intersectional conversation that doesn't get talked about enough, especially, in a lot of autism spaces where it's like, what identities is that autism intersecting with? So, I love that your coach kind of brought awareness to that aspect of privilege.
PATRICK CASALE: Just thinking about, like, what you're both saying and like, I think maybe it's just because the exact opposite experience is like a young white boy was really sensitive. I muted myself all the time. Like, I never tried to stand out, I never tried to send a message. I tried to, like, disappear from it all and be in the background at all costs. And I would, I think, I've talked about this with you, Megan, like constantly was wearing, like, blue, black, gray, never colorful, never would have, like, all of these water colored bright tattoos all over my body, never would send the message like, I'm wearing a shirt that says more of a Roy than a TED.
But that's the reality for me. Like, I never would have given myself permission to explicitly show any part of my personality. I muted it at all costs. So, I had the exact opposite experience, in a way, of like, post-discovery and diagnosis I was like, "I can fucking be myself." Like, oh my God. It was like, I can wear brighter clothing. I can, like, wear clothing that fits my body instead of like-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Only if Arielle approves that the shoes match the top.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's fair. Shout out to my wife for ensuring I never look like… What she would say is like, "You look like you walked out of the house like nobody loves you." Is what she would say. And I'm like, "Jesus."
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I love Arielle.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, this is where I think gender plays a part of it, and maybe not. And I think this maybe came up in a conversation we had previously. I think by me, and I'll be curious your thoughts on this, Maureen, by me presenting a, like, hard, kind of edgy vibe, like I was trying to tell the world give me space, which is not what the world does to girls.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Nope.
MEGAN NEFF: And so that was me muting myself, was me putting on this like, "Don't F with me."
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I was just literally thinking as you were talking the same thing. So, I was like, I was a wallflower in a lot of ways. I did not want people to talk to me. But it was more of, like, trying to give myself this look of like, "Leave me alone." I was thinking of the Breakfast Club. Have you guys seen that? I don't remember what the-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:38:03]-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, my daughter, my younger one, and I recently watched it, and she loves that. We're on a kick of watching, like, old, like 80s, 90s movies. And I'm surprised at how much she's like into them.
But you know that one girl who's, like, pretty much quiet the whole time, but she's got, like, the dark hair, and the… Like, that's, like, kind of how I feel, like, my presentation was. Like, it definitely was a just, you know, "Leave her alone." You know?
And it was almost like I was a self-fulfilling prophecy in a lot of ways. Like, I actually wanted to be, like, a part of something and embraced, and like felt like, you know, people liked me. But because I wasn't, I would present in ways that almost would keep that continuing but also would create, then, this place where people had, like, ammunition to, like, use against me in a way.
MEGAN NEFF: It's such a good psychological defense, right? It's like, I'm going to reject you before you can reject me. Same thing, like, in college, and partly, I did love reading, but I would always bring a book to the cafeteria because it would be so awkward to figure out, like, what table am I going to sit at? So, it's like, I'm going to go choose to sit alone and read a book.
And I actually think this is why boys wanted to date me in college because I think it made me seem like this, like, elusive, kind of mysterious person, for someone who is trying to break in, but failing to do so. And so, yeah, I think we had very similar, like, defenses going through life of, A, let me reject you before you reject me. But also, let me make it look like I don't care about being aloof, like I don't care about being disconnected.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yep.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I would imagine that it was exactly what it was. And I think people often are drawn to, like, what they want, but can't have mentality. I always ask people about, like, especially, at my retreats and summits, like, people are really drawn to me, but I don't want to be around them. Maureen can attest to that, like she and I will often, like, jet off to hide somewhere else with, like, a smaller group of four people and people want access to me because I think they can't get it.
And it's really fascinating. I'm like, why are people so drawn to me if, like, I'm constantly removing myself from the environment? [CROSSTALK 00:40:33]-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I don't know. I have no idea. Yes, because nobody comes up to me. And we know similar people because of, you know, the work we do. But you are correct. And people gravitate towards you so much.
And I have been told that, like, I'm just, like, you know, someone that looks like they don't want to be approached, you know? And also, I've said before, like, I feel like I'm in work sometimes, like, this vessel of, you know, take information. I'm not this, like, actual being. I'm, you know, here to, like, give you business advice. And I get that I, like, started it by how I chose to, like, support business owners. And now it's, you know, 12 years into it. And maybe I'm projecting, but like, I feel like I'm just, like, more like a being who's not human, who people are like, "This person knows how to run a business. I'm going to take information from them, but like, I don't see them as like, a person who to connect with." Almost.
Which is so interesting because you're the same way, or not the same way, but you're like, "I don't need to talk to people." But somehow people don't see it and they're like, "I need to talk to you."
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I'm so intrigued by this. I'm curious, Maureen, do you think there's something, part of this, like, "Don't F with me vibe." But like, do you think there's something, some energy you're putting off? Because what you're describing sounds very transactional. Like, people are coming to me for, like, transactional engagements. Like, do you think there's some kind of energy you're putting off of like that's what I'm open to versus partly because of this, like, the wallflower, "Don't mess with me." Or do you think that's just people [CROSSTALK 00:42:27]-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I definitely-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:42:29] mind.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I feel like I definitely, I mean, one of the reasons I started my own group practice was because whenever I was employed, I'm like an overachiever, it's just me. And I remember, you know, I'm making my own stories because no one ever would tell me why. But like, I was never fully utilized, ever. Like, I would get shut done fast and I'd be like, "Is there anything you'd like me to do? Anything more? No, you just want me to sit now because I did all this?"
I never was asked to be in any leadership positions. I remember having, like, higher degrees than some people in, like, hospital settings right after undergrad, where other people who didn't would just get, like, higher positions. And it wasn't because I wasn't working.
And I remember saying, "I want to be my own boss." Because I always was just like, I think it's because I look different. I think it's because I'm quiet, I am introverted. I don't hang out after work with the people and go for drinks, which probably is helpful in upward mobility and all this stuff. And so, I was like, "I'm going to start my own business because I don't need other people." Like, I was the person when I was in school that if there was an odd number of people, I was like, I'll be the one that doesn't do a group project. I'll do it myself, like, couple up everyone. And I would, like, be counting the people to see like, "Oh my God, is there an even amount? Because I don't want to have to be with someone."
And so, I think I started my group practice, my first business being like, "Fuck everyone. I don't need anyone. I can run a business all on my own. And I can be successful by myself. And I can choose how I want to work. And I can push myself as much as I want to."
And I think, yes, I probably started that transactional, like, of course, you aren't going to want me for any emotional reason or any, like, other sort of reason, other than for you to get what you want. So, as I hired people, I was like, "I'm here so that you can have, you know, like a job, so that you can be able to live whatever life that you want to have. I'm here to, like, provide you with whatever you need so that you can live your life."
But I remember vividly thinking maybe six or seven years ago that, like, I almost put myself in a position of being separated from people by being a business owner, right? Because you can't have the same kind of relationship that peers, and like, employees have as a business owner, right? And so, I almost think I did that on purpose, in some ways, I don't think without realizing it.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, is it okay if I jump in?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yes, totally.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I have said the same thing. I actually haven't thought about it from a… because I actually feel like I treat my employees as friends, maybe I shouldn't. So, when I was going through my doctoral program, like, it's a cohort-based program. Typically, you get pretty close to your cohort. And there were a couple people that I developed good relationships with, but I noticed in my second year I started TAing. And I was like, all of the things I was doing socially was mentorship. Like, I am so much more comfortable when I'm a mentor, when I'm the one… It is, you know, part of the assessment for autism, right, is like kind of non-reciprocal, which, there's issues with that.
But I did find my workaround for non-reciprocal was to always have asymmetrical relationships where, like, I'm the therapist or I'm the mentor, like, where I'm pouring into the other. And that is one of the ways I've adapted from both the emotional discomfort of true reciprocal relationships, but also, the pragmatics of, like, you talk, then I talk, and then… So, yeah, I absolutely, man, we share a lot of similar like, adaptations to our autistic brain and how we've moved through the world.
PATRICK CASALE: Just thinking that I've had the last two guests on you and Yunetta on for a reason. And I knew Megan was going to connect with their stories. So, really happy to feel victorious in this. Like, yes.
I want to say something because what you said is really important to me as a friend. You said, "People treat me as a vessel." Most people in the mental health entrepreneurial space know you as the owner of The Group Practice Exchange. You have a membership with a lot of members, I don't even know the number. I know it brings in a lot of money because we've talked about it, and it does really well because it's a really good resource. Your group practice has upwards of 70, 80 employees, like multiple locations. You have a book about leadership.
Here's the thing that I want to point out, when you spoke in Alaska at the conference we were at, it was a personal story, and it was a personal speaker presentation, and I think that was, you mentioned, your first opportunity, albeit very uncomfortable for you to share who you were like as a human, opposed to like this face of, like, this thing that you have created. And I just think that was like the indication for me of exactly what you just said of like people treat me as this resource, as this vessel, as this, like, community connector, who has all the insight. And this was a very different experience for you to speak in that regard. And I want to give you a lot of credit because I know it was really uncomfortable for you to.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, I will never do that again.
PATRICK CASALE: That's my point. That's my point, is what I'm saying is like-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I did not feel like an expert at all.
PATRICK CASALE: So, what are you?
MEGAN NEFF: Maureen, are you an Enneagram 3?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. I was like, yeah. I was like, there's just too much similarity in Enneagram 3 wing 4.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Wing 5, I think is that the-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: …which one's 5?
MEGAN NEFF: 5 is like ideation. 4 is like kind of a melancholy soul, and like no one's ever going to fully know me.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Oh, then [CROSSTALK 00:48:30]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:48:32]-
PATRICK CASALE: …very analytical, deep processing. A lot of [CROSSTALK 00:48:36]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, 5 is very ideation. I have a lot of five aspects too, very like you move through the world through like your mind, like [CROSSTALK 00:48:46]-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I'm a 3, 8, sorry, not a 3, 5. I have mine on here. I just looked up.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: So, I'm an Enneagram 3. Second highest was an 8, and then my third highest was a tie between a 6, 9, and 4.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I don't know what that all means. All I know is 3. And I'm like, "Oh, that makes sense. I'm the achiever."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, I hear that.
PATRICK CASALE: I just want to point out, though, that the sheer irony of you saying, like, people treat me as a vessel, but I will never do this thing where I give more myself away and be more vulnerable. So, like, there's that.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I know.
PATRICK CASALE: I know I'm going to continue to push you on that.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, what we create that's part of it, right? Like, and not completely, but like we contribute to the enactments that we repeat. So, part of it is other people, like right now, all three of our conscious minds are contributing to this conversation. All three of our unconscious minds are contributing to this dynamic. And so, yes, we're always part of the enactments and the patterns that we create.
And I'm very similar to Maureen. Like, that's partly why I started this podcast. I was like, I want to hide behind my infographics, and education, and not talk about… Like, someone invited me a year or two ago. And partly, it was not enough structure. But it was like, "Come talk about autism and your experience."
And first, I was like, "That's way too vague." And two, I was like, "Are you sure you don't want me to talk about, like, misdiagnosis or like education because I can do that."
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah. No, that's exactly how I feel.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, with that being said, I want to just name that. Like, there's a vulnerability in that. There's a vulnerability in putting ourselves out there and talking more about who we are, and talking more about who we are, and our own stories, our own journeys, especially, as business owners, as leaders, as thought leaders, in general. Like, there's always going to be that vulnerability. So, even if you never do it again, I give you a lot of credit for doing it one time.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll share more about myself in a way that isn't only about one topic.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Was it about autism?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah, yeah. As a way that, like, embraces multiplicity.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And I think what you're also saying is like you're sick of being typecast as this specific, like, one-track individual who just talks about leadership.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Right, right.
PATRICK CASALE: But then there's like, this is where I feel comfortable talking about leadership.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: It is.
MEGAN NEFF: I think, also, finding the medium, like giving a big presentation where the feedback loop is, like, there's not as much of a feedback loop because you're talking and, yes, you're seeing people's faces versus a conversation like we're having now. Like, I experience you as very personable in this conversation we're having right now.
And so, I also think for folks like us for whom, I think, we can have a lot of, like, intellectual defenses and defenses before you get vulnerable, finding the medium. Like, I don't think I could be as personable and vulnerable as I am on this podcast if I was giving a presentation or like in different mediums. It has to be happening in the context of a conversation for me.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, I [CROSSTALK 00:51:58]-
MEGAN NEFF: …which took me a while to figure out.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I do tend to do better in, like, small group or one-on-one supporting of people. And I find that, like, it is less transactional in those ways.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: But like, you know, anything that's like many people to one, I always feel like that's where I just become more transactional. And so, yeah, I don't know, Patrick, back to your point of you, like, people come to you, [CROSSTALK 00:52:27]-
PATRICK CASALE: I don't want them to do.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: And the, yes, I'm like surprised.
MEGAN NEFF: You need more black, you need more piercings. Like, we can help you come up with a vibe.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:52:37] has a few fake nose rings. Now that they have a real one, I can always bring one next time for you.
PATRICK CASALE: In junior high, I had like the JNCO jeans, and I was like… But I also then would pair it with, like, Nike or Adidas shirts for soccer, and I had frosted tips. I really didn't know who I was. It was very confusing for me. I'm trying to bring it back. Arielle is not a fan. She's like, "No, that can't happen in this house."
Yeah, it's a weird phenomenon. Like, people do want a lot of access to me, and I'm not going to give it to them. And I think it's this push/pull of like, "Can we get closer? How do we buy access? By coming on more events, coming on more retreats?" Like, it's never going to phase me. I need to build authentic, real relationships. Otherwise, a lot of the conversations are going to be like, pretty short, and direct, and to the point in a lot of awkward ways of getting out of them, as well as the retreat host, where you just start backing out of conversations that people who have paid you to have. So, it's a really interesting phenomenon. I haven't figured out the medium very-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: It might also be, like, gender-related. You know, our industry tends to be a lot of women and like a man who's, you know, a little less, like, you know, giving of their energy, and space, and time might just be a trick. Because I know I get much more, I feel like I'm a really kind person, like, despite how I might look. I'm not a gossip. Like, I don't talk meanly about people, even when people, like, friends are like, "Yeah, that person, right?"
And I'm like, "Well, not my favorite." But like, that's as far as I usually… I'm very, like, generally nice and I never get angry. Like, but I know that any amount of, if I don't give, like, I get people who are really angry, and judging, and I always, I don't know, just kind of assumed it played into, like, I'm a woman, and there's an expectation to be, like, giving, and maybe you have less of it as a dude. I don't know.
PATRICK CASALE: Perhaps.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Maybe.
MEGAN NEFF: There's actually research on this, especially in, like, the academy. It's interesting because then tenure. Like, so tenure is kind of the means you've made it if you're a professor. And men, typically, have a much easier time getting it, well, for a few reasons.
But there's been some research that looks at the invisible labor of female professors and professors of color, and because a lot of the things, like, in general, students will come for mentorship to female professors more or professors of color, like students of color will gravitate towards them. So, there's a lot of emotional labor.
And then, there's also a lot more coordinating, like a lot of the social stuff, things that professors aren't given tenure for, a lot of those might be called like those softer, more peopley things. And so, it's been talked about as the invisible labor that is done.
And I think, right, that's research specific to academia, but I think that could be applied to a lot of different work contexts that in general, I think, that there's a lot of invisible labor that gets put on various identities.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I agree.
PATRICK CASALE: Very true, very true. So, I want to be mindful of time. We have been talking for almost an hour. We've diverged all over today.
MEGAN NEFF: We've diverged a bit.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Sorry, guys.
MEGAN NEFF: And actually, it was just like a minute ago when Patrick was talking about your business. I was like, "Oh, whoa." I knew you ran the membership. I didn't realize your clinical practice was 70 employees. That's a huge team. [CROSSTALK 00:56:26]-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, now there's a little less of that. I think we're in the 60s.
MEGAN NEFF: That's still a huge team. I can't even wrap my mind around the executive functioning involved in managing that.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: It's called I bring a leadership team on so that I can stay sane.
MEGAN NEFF: That's right. That's really [CROSSTALK 00:56:45]-
PATRICK CASALE: …leadership. We didn't talk about delegation. We didn't talk about accountability. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: You mean we didn't treat Maureen like a vessel.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we didn't treat her like a vessel.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, you didn't.
PATRICK CASALE: I'd say this is what the most divergent, successful ending to a series is but I enjoyed getting to get beneath the surface about all the two. I will say this and this is just a shameless plug for Maureen because she's not going to do it for herself. I've watched her speak on accountability, and leadership, and delegation, and creating accessibility, and you are a wizard. You are the only person that I listened to in our Greece retreat, where I was like, "Wow, I could listen to this all day." So, I just want to shout that out. Like, it's truly amazing what you have created. And a lot of our listeners are going to have no fucking clue because I think-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, let's bring it conversational. So, I've just hired my first full-time employee. I have historically worked with contractors, but I now, like, have a legit team. So, I'm thinking about these things. I'm thinking about accountability. I'm thinking about like, how do I want to structure my business in a way like I'm starting to put a lot of thought into this. So, I'm curious, what you do around delegation, accountability, is this specific to mental health entrepreneurs, or is this for all entrepreneurs?
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I've written the book specific to mental health, to group practice. But I have a lot of friends who own businesses in other areas. And the concepts are universal. It's just that my stories that, like, bring the ideas to life. I use group practices as the storyline for it.
MEGAN NEFF: That makes sense, that makes sense. So, [INDICERNIBLE 00:58:36] because that's your context. But these are ideas that could be translatable too, cool.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, essentially, it's about creating like a leadership team that is accountable so that it trickles down to, like, the business and team at large. So, like, what are the core roles that are in most businesses from finance, and HR, and admin operations, clinical operations for us in our industry, sales and marketing.
And then, like, how do you create roles and functions that then the team can set accountabilities through because a lot of times we just have titles with some job expectations. And then, if you ever look at an offer letter with a job description, a lot of times half of the things aren't actually being done. And people are usually surprised, like, "Oh, my God, I didn't know this was actually on my job description."
And it's like, oh, because the through line wasn't there. Your role and the functions within your role weren't clearly laid out for you to actually stay accountable to them.
MEGAN NEFF: This is why I feel like when autistic processing, like, build systems, the systems often can, like, because the implicit is made explicit. And so, I think a lot of times the communication and the process can be streamlined because there's a lot of, yeah, just that autistic processing that goes into building systems. Yeah, that sounds wonderful.
PATRICK CASALE: Maureen, just to piggyback on all this, my wife sat in on your talk and took, like, vigorous notes, and she works for the federal government. And was like, she's in leadership. She's like, "We could use all of this. Maureen needs to adapt this to be universal." So, I just want to say, like-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Thanks.
PATRICK CASALE: ...that's how she came home with it. I told her to order your book. She said she's not going to do that. She's like, I'll just get it from you and like, steal all those-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: I know. I feel like I left a bajillion copies in Alaska, you should have just stolen one.
PATRICK CASALE: I have your book. You sent it to me through your book launch, but like-
MAUREEN WERRBACH: That's right, that's right.
PATRICK CASALE: She was seriously, like, trying to implement some of your ideas into the sector of the government that she works for. So, I just want to say they can be used and applicable all over the place, and universally, not just a mental health provider, specifically.
Okay, we are at that time. So, great conversation. We are wrapping up our Neurodivergent Entrepreneurial series today. Lots of great interviews, different perspectives, different neurotypes, different experiences. The next segue is that Megan and I are going to start recording a OCD series. And we have a lot of good guests lined up for that.
So, Maureen, tell the audience where they can find you and then we will close this out.
MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yep, my website, thegrouppracticeexchange.comor I'm on Instagram. I mean, my business is also on Facebook, but I'm not as active in there. It's @thegrouppracticeexchange.
PATRICK CASALE: Perfect, and we'll have that information in the show notes as well as a link to her book, The Accountability Equation, which you did not mention and you said you were not going to. So, I guess you stay true to your word.
And new episodes of Divergent Conversations are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, share. And we will see you next week.
