Episode 68: Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs (#4): Rewiring Beliefs to Face Your Inner Critic [featuring Yunetta Smith]
Aug 22, 2024
Show Notes
Neurodivergent individuals can sometimes feel overwhelmed by emotions or struggle to understand their own stress responses, and entrepreneurship can add another level of intensity to this experience.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Yunetta Smith, a licensed clinician, coach, trauma expert, and EMDR trainer, about the impact of naming emotions on mental health, especially for neurodivergent individuals, entrepreneurs, and people of color, emphasizing the importance of allowing folks to have autonomy over their own experiences and healing.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover how naming your emotions can reduce stress and turn tough experiences into opportunities for healing and growth.
- Gain insights into the reality behind perceived success and the internal struggles many neurodivergent entrepreneurs face—validation that you are not alone if you feel overwhelmed, isolated, or disconnected despite your outward achievements.
- Learn about Yunetta's groundbreaking work with EMDR therapy, offering marginalized communities access to mental health resources tailored to their unique needs and experiences.
As you listen, consider how emotional awareness can enhance both your personal well-being and your entrepreneurial success, keeping in mind that there is more than one right way to access your emotions and honor your nervous system and uniqueness.
More about Yunetta:
Yunetta Smith is a Thriving Therapreneur (Therapist + Entrepreneur) CEO and founder of Spring Forth Counseling and Ground Breakers Coaching and Consulting. Yunetta is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor in the States of TN, KY, and ID, as well as a Nationally Certified Counselor, Clinical Trauma Professional, and EMDR Therapist/Approved Consultant.
Yunetta specializes in helping black and brown folks navigate childhood trauma that manifests in adulthood—working exclusively with public figures, professionals, pastors, and practitioners.
She works diligently to spread awareness through various media platforms including the weekly “Talk it out Tuesday” segment on the Rickey Smiley Morning Show, co-hosting the Deeper than the Diet Podcast, and self-publishing her self-care workbook “Take the Struggle Out of Self-care: Six Weeks to Create Your Self-care Strategy.”
Yunetta is a groundbreaker, a stigma breaker, and a cycle breaker who cultivates spaces for healing, wholeness, compassion, and change. She strives to create an atmosphere where anyone can take of their masks, stand in their truth, and learn to love what they see!
- Websites: yunettaspring.com & groundbreakerstherapy.com
- Social Media: @yunettaspringsmith & @groundbreakerstherapy
- EMDR Mailing List: text EMDR to 33777
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: Resilient Mind Counseling & Learning Nook
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we are still on our neurodivergent entrepreneurial series. I'm really excited to have a really good friend and colleague, Yunetta Spring Smith on today, who is a keynote speaker, trauma trainer, EMDR certified trainer, I don't know the terminology, Yunetta, you can correct me, a licensed clinician in the state of Tennessee, an entrepreneur with a million ideas, a membership called Groundbreakers, which is helping BIPOC therapists not only heal their own trauma but learn trauma training modalities themselves.
Yunetta, I believe if we were to identify you, you would say that you're undiagnosed ADHD.
YUNETTA SMITH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: I would say by knowing you for five years that I would 100% agree. Did I miss anything in your bio? And if I did, I'm sorry.
YUNETTA SMITH: Nope. I think that's primarily everything, trainer, EMDR trainer, coaching for clinicians, self-care workbooks. I have a self-care workbook, Take The Struggle Out of Self-Care that folks can get. And also, the radio segment. So, I do radio segment. It's roughly like monthly now Talk It Out Tuesday on the Ricky Smiley Morning Show to talk about mental health and help break the stigma. So, I think [CROSSTALK 00:03:08]-
PATRICK CASALE: How nervous are you on a scale of one to 10 right now?
YUNETTA SMITH: Where I'm at one to 10? About a seven.
PATRICK CASALE: Seven, damn. Love it.
YUNETTA SMITH: And it was good. Soon as you hit record, it was like, "Boom."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Like, you don't [CROSSTALK 00:03:40].
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:03:04]-
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:03:42] didn't help?
YUNETTA SMITH: No, they helped tremendously for the moment we were in. But no, I'm good, I'm good.
I am also a bird launcher. So, I like to classify myself as that. I have a beautiful 19-year-old daughter and she's amazing. And calling myself an empty nester was extremely depressing. And so, after three months of, like, being curled up like, "I miss my baby, what is life?" I tapped into the term bird launcher, and that felt like so much better for my system to be able to say, "You launched a bird and she's flying." And not focus on the emptiness, so that's a big part of who I am, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness. I love that. Like, I talk about this a lot, how a lot of the things we say could be described in the negative or the positive. I hadn't thought about that with empty nester. Like, you could flip it from what is lacking, what is absent to like what happened, what positive energy happened. So, I love that a lot.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, thank you. It definitely helped me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yunetta is full of good imagery and ideas like that, which I think is a strength of yours. So, can you tell the audience a little bit about, like, the passion behind the project?
So, I know a lot about it. Megan does not. I'd love for you to kind of just tell us a little bit about, like, who you are in current day, how your neurodivergence has shaped that. And let's take it from there because you have so many good ideas. And usually, you send them to me at, like, one in the morning in a flurry of like DMs. And I'm like, "Yunetta."
YUNETTA SMITH: He wakes up like, "What the?" And then, his response is, like, one word, "It sounds amazing, Yunetta. You could do it. Where do we start?"
But, yeah, yeah. My journey has been like, wow, just kind of all over the place. So, I feel like at this point in my life I'm just getting to the point where things are starting to come together and feel more aligned and streamlined. Even though it's a lot happening, it feels like things are coming together.
So, I always have been super visual, super creative. If you give me something, I can figure out 10 ways to use it. And, you know, that's been my thing. I grew up in church. I grew up, like, dancing. So, I've always had, like, heard a song, and then, visualized something, and then, create this beautiful piece. And if I do something, I'm like, "If you don't watch, I don't know what I just did. After I do it, it's gone." You know? So, trying to, like, hone in on that.
So, growing up in military community, in the hood, and some spaces, you know? My transition has been quite unique, but similar for some folks, not necessarily understanding or recognizing that I did have childhood trauma. And didn't necessarily get that fully until I got into this field. I just thought I wanted to talk to people. I've always been somebody people could connect with and talk to. And then, I was like, "Oh shit. No wonder, you know, I have identified these areas?"
So, I've always wanted to kind of be a solution for people who have experienced things that are similar to me, or finding gaps at holes and spaces. And being able to come in and say, "How can we repair this? How can we, you know, make this better?"
So, I think throughout my life I've done that in different ways. And now, I'm doing it in the therapeutic space, specifically, with EMDR. So, that has been, like, a huge part of my journey.
When I got trained, I did it because one of my fair friends said, "Hey, girl, you want to go to a training? We need some CEUs." And I was like, "Yeah, I need some. Oh, you get a lot here, we can go." But I didn't know much. I had always worked with trauma but didn't know much. Like, I just didn't know much about EMDR.
And when I went to that training, that was the very first time my emotions and the experience connected. So, I was disconnected. I knew the stories, I knew what I experienced. I could tell you and just, you know, no, it was awful, but not necessarily feel the somatic connection to it. And that was the first time I had that click and that connection, and it blew my mind. And I was like, "What the fuck is this? I need to learn more about it." Then I got angry because I was like, "Why are there only three black people in this room? And I know all three of them, you know? And why don't we know more about this considering the history of trauma, you know, that we've experienced. This could be a great tool to really help us heal."
So, from that point, I just was like, "I'm going to take this all the way. I'm going to go all the way and try to help as many people as I can, learn about it, primarily and specifically, people of color." Because it was something that, you know, a lot of people said, "We can't do this with black folks." You know? So…
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, people were saying you can't do this with black folks?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot of folks are like, "Yeah, that doesn't work for us." A lot of clinicians just kind of, like in the time when I started, there weren't many people of color trained in this therapy. So, that connection that's necessary to do the work, you know, it really wasn't happening as frequently. So, representation matters. So, even seeing somebody, like, that looks like you, that has a similar background, and you say, "Hey, this works for me." Then I think that created a lot of interest and buy-in for folks to be able to, you know, want to know more about it.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: When I think about you, Yunetta, I think about you, I mean, you have a business called Groundbreakers, and that's kind of the way I look at you because you have kind of gone through the wringer in terms of becoming a trainer in this modality, where you've had to struggle a lot throughout the process of, like, really putting a lot of yourself out there, being really vulnerable, really showing up so that you can create more representation for the BIPOC community to say, "Hey, we can do this work. We cannot only heal ourselves, but we can heal our communities."
And I think, like, I've seen, the ripple effect within the work you do in terms of how many BIPOC EMDR trainers are starting to come up. Do you want to talk about EMDR? Because I text you this before we got on here. There can be a negative association, especially, for autistic folks, in terms of, does it work? Is it effective? Is it harmful? As someone who is neurodivergent themselves, and as someone who is also a BIPOC trainer, there's a lot of masking that goes into that experience, I imagine. There's a lot of [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:33] searching, there's a lot of moving through a lot of different spaces and being a lot of different Yunettas. Can you talk about that and how you use a modality like that to support neurodivergent people, and how you kind of adapt?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So much starting out, I remember listening to one of y'all podcasts. I think it was on masking. And when I tell you, like, it hit me to my core. I was just like, "Oh my goodness." Being able to hear all of the things that kind of go on internally, behind the scenes, and not even being able to really put language and words to what I was actually doing, you know, from that neurodivergent perspective. And then, also, as being a black woman in spaces knowing that there are some people that don't necessarily want you to be there, or if you're there, they want you to be there and be quiet, you know?
And what happens, like, I work a lot with, you know, like our nervous system, and what type of response that puts you in. I like to talk about the nervous system in terms of, like, the 5 F's. I use 5 F's, which is, fight, flight, freeze, flop, and friend. And I think that friend response is a lot that, as a black woman navigating these spaces early on that I felt like I had to do to, you know, sustain like, "Oh, if I piss this person off, that's my paycheck." You know what I mean? "Oh, if I piss this person off, maybe that may be the referral that I need to be able to continue to move forward in this space."
So, I've experienced a lot of different things and had to mask, you know, in a lot of different ways. And I think, especially, early on now, not as much, but I noticed when it comes up, and giving myself, like, that grace and compassion to see whatever it is that's happening in this space, how did that light you up? You know, what is that connected to? And having that understanding that I've learned through EMDR, being able to like, connect and trace back to the origin has helped me to, like, know what areas I need to continue to work on, you know? Or offer love, compassion, kindness to, or accept? So, it's definitely been a challenge.
And, I mean, I could sit here and honestly say I'm extremely proud of myself for how I've been able to move through it, and the parts of me that felt like that was what was necessary for that time, I could understand, you know, how and why, and not harp on it as much as I used to.
Did I answer any question? Because, you know-
PATRICK CASALE: You did.
YUNETTA SMITH: I did, okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, Megan and I play this game subconsciously where we are looking at each other out of our peripherals, like, "Is someone going to hit unmute?" So, I was doing that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Oh, yeah. No, no. I was just, like, you know how my brain works.
PATRICK CASALE: I do. So, knowing how your brain works and knowing that this modality has to be adapted, and changed, and shifted, how are ways that you can change, shift, like, adapt something to better support someone's like sensory system, neurotype, etc. Like, what are some of the ways and do this creatively so it doesn't feel like a one-size-fits-all approach?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And I think when we talk about… and this don't have to be all about EMDR because there's so many different parts, you know? But I think when I think about why I'm so good, and look at me saying that. You heard me just say that? Look at you. Why I'm so good and confident about what I do is my trauma response has been to adapt in some ways, right?
So, I've learned throughout my life to be able to read the room, right? And be able to see what is it safe for me to do? What is it safe for me to say? Where is it safe for me to… So, that skill was already kind of encoded in me throughout my lifetime, right?
So, I feel like trauma wounds create, there are ways that we can operate in those wounds as it being like a resource. And then, there's ways that we can operate in a way that it can be further impairing. You know, an impairment to how we function. So, I think with everything there's a flip side to it. So, me being able to read a room and me being able to see what is safe has really helped me to be able to attune to the people that I'm in the room with.
So, as I'm doing EMDR that attunement is present. And I always say it's not about me fitting people into a protocol. It's about me learning how this protocol fits into the person, right? So, we're going through things and saying, "How does that feel for you? Tapping, is that something that's soothing? If it makes you feel like you're scratching a chalkboard, then we're not going to do that, right?"
So, being able to move through finding what feels good for their system, to be able to integrate some of the resources, being able to people who have like aphantasia, they can't see imagery, right? Or maybe they can't connect with the emotion or part of it. Whatever part they can connect with, that's the way that we move into the work.
And it takes time. And it takes knowing that, "Guess what, I'm not the expert. This person is the expert of their system." And me being able to build their confidence in knowing what they like, what they don't like, what works for them, what doesn't, it could be super reparative because most folks who are autistic or most folks who have ADHD have had to live their life, like, trying to conform and like, pushing away what's going on with them to accommodate, like neurotypical spaces. So, it's almost like we're working on moving backwards and repairing like, if this was done when you were a baby…
We had a conversation in training today. And one of the trainers I'm working with was talking about colicky babies, or maybe this baby like, you know, had autism and the comfort was over stimulating for them. So, it's like, if your parent had known that hugs and love was overstimulating and just like, let you be, then maybe this would not have occurred to where you, you know what I mean? We're dealing with what we're dealing with now. So, that's kind of what helps me be able to kind of allow this to integrate into any person that I work with because I really take the time to see what it is that feels good for you, what does your system need, and why?
MEGAN NEFF: I'm having a flurry of thoughts right now. But one thing that came to my mind when you were talking is like you're so good at finding people's access points. Like, how do we get into your inner world? How do we make this modality work for you?
I don't know a whole lot about EMDR, but from what I have heard, I've kind of thought of it as a sort of, kind of, I know it's very structured and kind of a strict modality, and it's like, "Well, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you." But I'm hearing you take it so differently, of like, how do we figure out how to make this work with aphantasia? How do we make this, like, work with you?
And in that is, like you're saying, so much reparative attunement of we're not just going to give up on you if this modality, in the way it's structured doesn't work for you, we'll find your access points.
YUNETTA SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely. And it's like, what does that do for somebody's system? Like, even you just saying that, "I'm not going to give up on you." Right? And how many times has that person had an experience where, "If you can't sit still then you just need to go over here." Instead of saying, "What can we do to help you stay engaged in a way that feels good for you?" And there's just not a lot of room for that just, traditionally, growing up the way our culture, and system, and school, and stuff is there's just not a lot of room for that. So, being able to create space for that.
And I think that's just my personality, too. Like, tell me I can't do something. Like, I will struggle with something forever until somebody says you can't. Oh, you said sometimes I'm like, "Hey, Patrick, tell me I can't do this just so I can get mad enough to make it happen." Right? So, that's how I view it. Like, oh, it doesn't work for me.
And I want to know, I want to get curious about what didn't work for you? What didn't you like about it? What happened? And usually, if you get lean into that with curiosity, not in a defensive way like, "I'm going to make this work for you." But if you lean in with curiosity, you'll be able to find what it was. And it's like, "No wonder it didn't work for you." Like, yeah, that wouldn't work for me if I didn't like that and somebody did it, duh, right?
But the clinician has to be able to lean in with curiosity. And I think a lot of times clinicians have this sense of, "I'm the expert, and I have to be perfect, and if something is not working in my space, it has to be that other person. It can't be me." And that's when you're dealing with your own shit and not self-aware that you're in this space too. So, if something isn't working, something that, you know, on both ends that that's happening, you got to get curious about what that is.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. I had a reaction, a physical reaction when you were talking about, like people who couldn't sit still, you just get thrown over there. And I'm like, "Yeah, that's me every second, every day."
But I like that perspective on something because I think it is about just, like, leaning in with curiosity, being really open to the experience, and, like, not looking at these things in a black-and-white context. And I think that's super important, too, so it doesn't feel so rigid, so it doesn't feel like it's very constricting, or confining.
And I can speak to experience. You know, I've been in person with you where you're like, "Let's try some of these skills." And I'm like, "I'm not really open to that." And you're like, "[INDISCERNIBLE 00:20:50] feel like curious about why?" And I'll, ultimately, able to, like, anchor in and like at least ground, and regularly at times when feeling very, very overwhelmed. So, I can speak to that first hand.
I'm curious, I want to diverge a bit into, like, your entrepreneurial journey. So, we're speaking, specifically, of like a training that you've put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into, but you do a hell of a lot more than that. And sometimes, from the outside perspective, as a friend of yours, it probably looks like chaos. And I think it does feel like chaos for you. Can you talk about the creative process and, like, light bulb moment, big idea, then what happens, usually?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah. Oh, wait, it is chaos. And it's usually not organized either. You know, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:37] because it's like, "It's organized chaos, it's chaotic. But I know where it is." For me, like that's bullshit.
But yeah, so it looks like lots of great ideas, like almost as if I just wish I could give this idea to somebody to execute it because for me, my challenge, I'm aware of it, is execution. So, lots of great ideas, but not necessarily the steps of what it takes to make that idea happen, really fully fleshed out. And then, when I get into the steps of what it takes, then it loses the charge, the excitement, and then, it falls flat sometimes, or it's like that, needing to… the pressure of, like, waiting to, it's like, "Right there." And you got to do it. So, that's a lot of what I experience.
And so, I've had to work around a lot about, like, if you get an idea, have space to hold it, and then, sit on it. And if you're still excited about it, come back around and see if it's feasible. But you know, there's that stress and anxiety that comes like, "If I don't do it now, then it'll go forever and I won't, you know, be able to do it." So, I'm learning to do that.
I think it looks like, I think I mentioned this before, and this is one of the things that I'm actively working on doing, when I have so many ideas I build out, right? So, I have all of these things, but it stretches me. And then, I feel burnt out in that capacity.
And where I am now is like trying to find a way to build up, right, so that I can kind of see these things through and it doesn't necessarily stretch me as much. I think the chaos that's within, and maybe, Patrick, because you're in, you know, my friend group bubble, you see a lot more of the chaos than other people see. Like, externally, I feel like, "Oh, your stuff is amazing, and you're doing great, and you're on all of these platforms, and stuff." But they don't really see the level of anxiety that I feel prior to doing something, or have had to work really hard to be able to manage. I enjoy doing the things. It's not like I don't like doing it, but what comes with it sometimes it's a lot.
MEGAN NEFF: I really appreciate you sharing that and like, that's me, I feel a lot is the disconnect of what I have learned I look like from the outside to my internal experience. And I imagine this is true for a lot of neurodivergent entrepreneurs, creators of, like, our lives can look really put together or polished, and then, it's like, like, my team would like, they see how messy I am, and they're like, "Oh goodness, let's help you get organized." And it's like, yeah, people and even in, like, the comments people leave over they wouldn't realize the internal, like, strain, and stress, and anxiety that goes into it. Yeah, yeah. So, that disconnect. I'm glad you picked up on that. I feel that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: I experience that all the time, you know? Like, and I made a post about this yesterday. Like, so many people look at the things that I create or the things that I do with like, what's the word, term? Rose-colored glasses?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know if it's the word.
YUNETTA SMITH: That's it.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, "Oh, look at Patrick hosting these events and traveling the world." That's like 2% of my life. 98% of my life is spent in darkness and solitude, with the shades closed, very lonely, depressed, alienated, like feeling disconnected. And the only time I feel connected is when I'm creating. But then, I have to try to recharge, to get that spark back, to be able to create. And then, if my executive functioning takes a hit, which it typically does, if I look at a list of steps of things to do, I immediately just shut down. And I'm like, "I can't do it." Or I have to delegate it. But then, I get really impatient because it's not being done fast enough, but I don't know how to do it, and that leads, like, complete and utter… it's not paralysis, I don't want to use that word, but it is-
MEGAN NEFF: Like collapse?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. It's collapse, yeah. And I collapse, like, laying on my couch watching the same four shows over and over and over again, thinking about all of the ideas that I want to put out into the world, but unable to actually follow through on them, whether it be because of executive functioning, the inability to know what steps to do.
Someone sent me a laundry list of steps on how to self-publish a book the other day. I looked at it for 10 seconds, and I immediately was like, "No, there's no fucking way I'm doing this." Like [CROSSTALK 00:26:19]-
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah. And I think it's almost like, so when I view things, I view it as, you know, the visual that I'm getting is like that wiring. So, I talk a lot about, like, wiring, and rewiring, and what that looks like. And I think when it comes to what we need, when you think of like that neurodivergence perspective, and then, that nervous system, you know? Like, how they're so, like, interconnected. And what I love about what we do with EMDR is like looking at the belief that we have about ourselves because of what is showing up, right? And that could be attached to anything, you know? And that can kind of shift and change. Like, we can rewire that to make it more adaptive.
And making something more adaptive doesn't change what's happening, right? So, that doesn't change that, "Oh, I need to recharge." Or, "I'm sitting in the…" But what you think, feel, and believe about yourself because you do that changes. You know what I mean?
And I think before doing some of this work, there could be, like, a lot of guilt and shame that you hold, like you look at yourself and have, and hold because, "Oh, I'm doing these great things, but then I'm in the dark, and I'm feeling really low." And it could be a lot of guilt and shame attached to that. Or it could be, "Oh, I'm honoring myself, and this is what my system needs, and you know, I can give myself what I need, or I'm worthy of having the time and space to be able to do this for myself." You know what I mean?
So, I think as I'm growing and learning more about this, I'm seeing that it's not necessarily that I need to change and I need to stop doing this. It's what I think, feel, and believe about myself because I do that, and that's what we can alter.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that so much. I feel like a broken record. I say this a lot, but like the story we tell ourselves matter. Like, it matters so much. And it's not about some sort of toxic positivity of like denying our experience, but it is really that of what is the story I'm telling when I'm sitting in the dark and recovering, right? Is it, like, I'm so, like…
YUNETTA SMITH: Like broken or damaged-
MEGAN NEFF: I'm broken or like-
YUNETTA SMITH: …or something's wrong with me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. First, I'm taking care of myself right now, yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And worthy of that. Like, the worthiness or I value myself enough to be able to give myself what I need, when I need it, without, like that, guilt, shame, remorse, you know?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, my favorite self-compassion statement, I've followed Dr. Kristin Neff's work and there's a lot of self-compassion statements that I'm like, "I can never say that to myself and like, actually take it in." But here's one I can, and I use it a lot, is, this is a hard moment, and because it names it. So, I could also imagine and be like, this is a hard moment, and I'm taking care of myself right now. Like, both naming this is a hard moment, and I'm choosing to, like, lean into care more.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. Dan Siegel has the phrase like, name to tame.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: You know? So, when we can name what it is, it tames the distress that we have, and we can settle in it. And I love that because that's like, that name to tame. It's like, not naming that, "It'll be okay." And, "I'm fine." Right? It's like, "No, this is hard." And just by doing that, my system can stabilize and say, I'm really acknowledging, like, where you are right now.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Have you heard of the tarantula study?
YUNETTA SMITH: Uh-uh (negative).
MEGAN NEFF: So, this is, like, one of my favorite studies. Okay, I'm going to nerd out for a minute.
YUNETTA SMITH: Love it.
MEGAN NEFF: And I did a review right before hopping on, which is, like, my thing I don't like is, like, inaccurately referencing studies.
YUNETTA SMITH: Oh, girl, listen.
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's a study, and they took people who had phobias of spiders, and they had a tarantula in a cage, and they had them see how close they could get to the spider. And they put them in, I think it was actually four groups. So, one was probably control group. One was like a CBT reframing, like the spider can't hurt me. And then, another group was distraction. And then, the other group was name your emotions. Like, I'm experiencing fear right now.
And they then had them come back and do it again. And they had some biofeedback to measure both stress response, but also to see how close they could get to the spider. And it was the group that was naming their emotions, right? Not reframing, not distracting, someone being like, "I'm feeling anxious right now." That was the group that could get the closest to the spider and had the less stress response.
And I just love that study because it's like, yeah, like, naming our emotions has so much power, and sometimes reframing can be helpful, but we don't have to, like, frantically be like trying to convince ourselves it's not a hard moment. We can name that it's a hard moment.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And when I look at that, you describing that makes so much sense because in order… Like, our brain has the capacity to heal, but all systems got to be firing, right? And active for us to do that. So, the naming of it is, you know, not necessarily specifically, but more of that left brain orientation, being able to list and logical, top brain, prefrontal being able to like, frame it. And then, the emotional part, right, allows us to have that integration where I'm using my whole brain to be able to pick up what this experience is like for me. And when I can do that, then I can heal, stabilize, and be able to move through anything. So, I love that. That's good.
MEGAN NEFF: I love what you just did with that of like, what we're doing when we're naming to tame it is we're integrating. We're integrating our brain because we're not just being cognitive and we're not getting kind of flooded in the emotion. We're having an integrative moment.
Yeah, I love, like, the idea of integration, but I hadn't connected those two ideas. So, thank you for that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, thank you. I love the tarantula. I'll find a way to incorporate that into, you know, as an example.
MEGAN NEFF: It's a great study, yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, that's why I asked you [CROSSTALK 00:32:36]-
YUNETTA SMITH: Ask me if I want to be around no fucking tarantulas now. I don't care how much I can name it [CROSSTALK 00:32:52]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:32:53]. Yunetta, that's why I asked you how nervous you were to start this episode. Yeah, I do that constantly when I'm speaking at conferences or retreats. Like, it's the first thing that I do is I am noticing how anxious I am, feeling like my heart is going to beat out of my chest, really struggling to even catch my breath to speak without, like, sucking wind almost. I just name it, like how anxious and overwhelmed I'm experiencing this moment. It really allows you to, like, drop in and settle in because it allows you to say, like, "I am anxious. I am I am nervous about this. I'm still experiencing it, but I'm not going to let it, like, control how I move forward."
And I really love using that as a tactic and a strategy for a lot of things. And we'll probably do that in Italy and all future events. Like, it's just part of calming my nervous system.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And it's beautiful when you can be authentic about where you are, you know? Because there were some times in spaces where I would be like, "I'm fine." You know? So, being able to say no, like a seven, that's up there. Where's it landing in my body? It's all on my chest right now. You know, on my chest.
So, I think for, like, I keep going back to EMDR, I'm just going to do it. That's how my brain works. But I think it helps when you've already mapped out what this is connected to, and when you can check in with the feeling in the present, you know what it's connected to in the past, right? That's like the three prongs we use. You know what is connected to the past. And then, you're consciously aware that I don't have to let this impact my future the way that you know I'm fearing that it will, I could still move through this experience.
I was just telling someone yesterday, actually, about big keynote speaking engagement that I had, my very first keynote, right? And at this point, me and Patrick were like new, like friendships that were new. And this is when he was like, around the same time he was like, "You got ADHD. That's time blindness, that's like…" Like, everything that I would present as an issue he's like, "Yeah, that's actually this Yunetta." And I'm like, "Really?"
So, I was doing a keynote, and when I tell you I move a lot, you know, when I'm talking, and I had all of this, like, nervous energy, and I was, you know, pushing through it, Patrick got up in the middle of the keynote, and had a stress ball. He just threw it at me. He just stood up and threw it. And I just caught it. And it was like, this thing. And instantly, when I caught it, it was just like stabilization. So, I had a way to kind of still get the info out, and stim, and like, be cool.
And I was like, "How did you know that, like, in that moment that's what I needed?" I didn't even know that's what I needed, but you know, he did that. So, I kind of thought about that. I mentioned it the other day.
MEGAN NEFF: That's amazing attunement. That could have gone so badly. You could have just like [CROSSTALK 00:35:46] the ball.
YUNETTA SMITH: I know[CROSSTALK 00:35:46] hit me in the face or something, or I'm trying to catch it.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: To be fair, I didn't like throw it overhand. I would like-
YUNETTA SMITH: You tossed it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, you know?
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But yeah, it would have really sucked if-
YUNETTA SMITH: If I didn't catch it.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:36:04] on the face [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:06] completely just unraveled your speech and your-
YUNETTA SMITH: Whole presentation.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:12].
MEGAN NEFF: You would not be friends right now. We would not be having this conversation.
YUNETTA SMITH: We wouldn't.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:36:15]-
YUNETTA SMITH: …trying to hit me in the face in the middle of my speech.
PATRICK CASALE: I won't do the same thing in Scotland. That's another, you know, thing that you didn't talk about. And I think you're one of those people who tend to, like, keep these accomplishments hidden or smaller than they should be. And you know, Yunetta is our keynote in the Scotland summit that I'm hosting next July.
And I think, you know, having seen you speak publicly multiple times, you're one of the most engaging public speakers I've ever experienced. And I just want to name that right now as we're sitting here because for me, I've learned so much in terms of how you show up, and what you present, and how you show up to the world. And I just give you a ton of credit because I know behind the scenes that inner critic can be really harsh, and it can create a lot of stress and overwhelm. And, yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: Thank you, friend.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: I appreciate it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yunetta and I refer to these as gut punch moments where she's like, "Do I need to gut punch you right now?" And your inner critic is telling you, you suck at A, B, and C, and you've done it a million times. I'm like, Facebook actually banned several of our posts because it's something we're [CROSSTALK 00:37:20]-
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, they were going to, like, disable my account for inciting violence. And I was like, okay, we got to think of another way to say gut punch without getting my page shut down. So, thank you. Thank you for that. I definitely appreciate it and receive it. And I enjoy that, being able to have that opportunity to travel and to speak, you know? There's that part they could be like, "Oh, they're just asking me to speak because we're friends, and we've developed this friendship." And you know that impostor can come in, and you know? But you know, having done it a few times, seeing, like, the reviews that come, you know, from the participants as a result, and being able to like, see people really resonate with it, and, you know, see themselves differently, move differently in their business, has been incredibly rewarding and helpful to my growth, you know? So, I love it. Don't stop hiring me, okay? Because I still got a couple more places I want to go.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:38:22]. Real quick as we're kind of wrapping, we went over EMDR, we went over keynote speaking, we went over your workbook. I want you to kind of tell the audience about Groundbreakers because I think that's one of the most important pieces of the entrepreneurial journey for you because of the vision behind it. So, tell people what it is and why you created it because I think it's really powerful.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. So, my practice is Spring Forth Counseling. So, Spring is my middle name. And I'm big on, like, meaning. So, it's like-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:02] your last name for so long, just so you know.
YUNETTA SMITH: I know. I like to confuse people. I get confused. I don't know whether I want to go by Yunetta Spring, Yunetta Smith, Yunetta Spring Smith. So, it's just putting them together. Now, I'm just using it all, and it's very long and annoying sometimes, but I'll figure it out.
But when I created that practice, it was about supporting people, like, navigate changes and you know, helping them to grow, and be able to spring forth, right, into new spaces. But then, when, you know, I got into the EMDR space I realized, like, some people can't spring forth because what their lived experience is like, their history, their background, culture, demographic, there's so many systemic things that are keeping them down, and like, blocking their ability to spring forth. So, then, I was like, "We need to break ground. Like, I want to be able to break it up from the top, to open it up, you know, so that people can grow." You know, so be able to break it. So, that's where Groundbreakers came from. Like, being able to break ground for individuals who are marginalized and in spaces where they just don't have access, to be able to, you know, have their needs met or be able to heal.
So, I started with a directory. And I wanted to be able to identify as many black and brown folks who were trained in EMDR, a lot of people who want to be consultants because there's a process of getting trained, getting certified, becoming a consultant. If you don't have somebody that's willing to take you on as a consultant in training, then there's barriers to you being able to get to that point. If you're not linked up with someone who has an organized training, you know, organization, there's just so many barriers to people being able to move through this structure of EMDR, or, you know, the organization that governs everything. So, I wanted to let people know that BIPOC clinicians are accessible all over the country. I think I got a couple people in Canada now as well and that's still growing.
And I made it free because, originally, I had, like, a small fee, but, yeah, it really wasn't worth me keeping up with, you know, taking the money. So, I made it free to be able to make EMDR accessible to folks.
And then, as far as people having a consultant that understands the population that they work with, that was an issue as well. So, you're telling me to use this intervention in a way that doesn't work with the people I work with and they're walking away feeling like EMDR doesn't work. But I know from my perspective, as a black woman, if this lady is ranking her distress at a two but she saw her whole family murdered, maybe it's because she's learned to have to desensitize from those experiences. So, that doesn't mean she can't do EMDR. That means we have to do a lot of reparative work.
So, the way I approach EMDR is really looking at it from the ground up in what did this person not receive? What do they not know? And how do we start with that preparation there to be able to get them to maybe full standard processing.
So, that was the reason why I created Groundbreakers, to be able to represent and highlight EMDR clinicians, help them find consultants, and be able to create trainings that were specific to that population.
Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cool stuff. And it's still lots of work to deal with it. Even talking about it helps me see, like, you need to pour into this water, this a little bit more, you know? So…
MEGAN NEFF: That's so powerful. I love hearing you talk about that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Thank you.
MEGAN NEFF: And I hear… So, I'm also a visual thinker, and so, I partly just love listening to you talk because the visuals are so poignant. I loved the term Groundbreakers, but then when you explain it, I love the connection of you've got to do that work to be able to spring forward, yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: That's so powerful.
YUNETTA SMITH: And a lot of times, you know, with communities of color, marginalized communities, there's a sense that you aren't well because you don't want to be well, right? And there's so much focus on what you're not doing without understanding the roots and the origin of how this way of being has allowed me to survive up until this point. So, you stripping me away of all of that is really going to be more activating than helpful, right? So, how do I help you get to that space of healing and honoring that what you have to do to get there is what you have to do to get there because of your lived experience.
MEGAN NEFF: You said something earlier that I wrote down because I hadn't heard it conceptualized like this before, this idea that, and it reminded me, so Patrick, I think it was on the masking episode we talked about, it was a heavy moment of like, so did we become therapists because of our trauma? Like, because of adapting? What you said, of like, when it becomes a resource for us, impairing, like this thing, like being highly adaptable because of your, like, childhood and your traumatic experiences, the idea of teasing that out. And instead of it's like this is good or bad, it's like, sometimes this is a resource that is helpful for me, and sometimes it's impairing.
I really like that framework because it captures the nuance of this of, yeah, we develop coping strategies to survive. Some of them are adaptive at one point. And then, can be maladaptive. And then, we're adults and we're like, "Well, what do I do with this now that I understand why this behavior is here?" So, I just really like the nuance that you bring to that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And I think what makes it a benefit or an impairment is where I am in my nervous system when I execute that, right? So, if I am in my ventral vagal, and I'm open, and calm, and relaxed, and stabilized, then I can move through that wisdom, and you know, that insight, self-awareness in a way that's healthy, you know, and adaptive. But if I'm in my sympathetic nervous system, or if I'm like, then that looks, what I do in that is going to look completely different.
So, I think that's like, if you're wondering, trying to figure out, like, how do I know if I'm moving in an adaptive way? Or if I'm just kind of repeating those trauma wounds and trying to prevent something bad from happening, right or feeling overly responsible for others? Then I think knowing where you are in your nervous system, kind of, can let you know how you're moving through it as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I adore that. I like nervous system mapping a lot and that as an indicator, especially, for me, I have a bit of alexithymia. So, it would be hard for me to be like, "Well, I'm having this emotion right now. So, is this adaptive or is this maladaptive?" But I can more easily identify my nervous system state. And it's so concrete. So, I like that as kind of a tell of, like, how is this behavior showing up right now? Yeah.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, I love that, I love that. I do that with the mapping with all of my folks. We map out where you are when you're in dorsal, what's your language around it, how it shows up in all of these areas. So, you know, like for me, I just ate a whole bag of Nerds, Gummy Cluster Nerds.
PATRICK CASALE: You ate so many in Ireland, God.
YUNETTA SMITH: A packet, man. I was whipping about [INDISCERNIBLE 00:46:55] where are they coming from? I was like, "I got a packet full of them." You know, so being able to check in and say, "Oh, let me lean into this. I see what I'm doing. Let me check in with myself and see where I am." You know?
But sometimes I'm there just when I'm in a happy like kid place, I'm like, eating candy with, like, my fun kid's stuff. So, I was like, skipping to Ireland eating Nerd Ropes. So, I really wasn't activated there. But [CROSSTALK 00:47:21]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:47:22]
YUNETTA SMITH: … it's important to know.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:47:23] looking a cliff-like with no care in the world. That was where my friend Taylene and I were like, "Yunetta, please don't fall right now." But you were in your [CROSSTALK 00:47:37]-
YUNETTA SMITH: It was fine. The angle of where y'all were made it look really dangerous because when I looked at the picture, I was like, "Oh yeah, that does look…" But where I was, it wasn't like a hill. It was like this. And then, it went out. I would have been fine. Even if I fell off, I wouldn't have rolled down the hill, hopefully.
PATRICK CASALE: If I had rolled down the hill I would have liked to get it on video so we could laugh at it.
YUNETTA SMITH: As I die [INDISCERNIBLE 00:47:51] in my death.
PATRICK CASALE: What I think we did in this episode, which, one, I thought you two would really connect and potentially collaborate on something in the future because I think your personalities and your ideas really jive together. Two, I think we just created an episode that allows for people to take a step back with the immediate, like, reaction of EMDR is harmful to maybe look at things in a very different perspective, if applied differently from people who are parts of marginalized communities, who understand masking, who understand that this is not a black and white approach.
I was a bit worried if we talked about EMDR, what the feedback is going to be when we post this episode. But I think we did it in a way that's super nuanced, for those of you who listen more than just a 60-second reel on Instagram.
But I really appreciate your perspective, Yunetta, because it's just refreshing. And like Megan said, all the imagery that I unfortunately just really have a hard time connecting to, I really do appreciate the enthusiasm behind it, and I can connect to the emotion behind what you're saying. So, I don't know where I'm going with this. I just wanted to name that.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I love what we just created in this space, just talking, and kind of merging ideas, and getting things going. That's why I love that. I love what happens in the moment of flow. All the anxiety that comes beforehand, but like when you just get in a conversation, I just love the natural unfolding of what comes out of that. So…
PATRICK CASALE: Are you still at a seven of 10?
YUNETTA SMITH: No, not at all. I'm good. Okay, I'm checking in a little bit, probably like, around two, because I know we're wrapping up. And I know I typically have a difficult time with being able to that pitch part of, "How can you connect with me?" And then, it always goes like… So, that's what I'm noticing. But I'm good.
MEGAN NEFF: The pitch part is always so awkward. I always struggle with that too, when I'm on people's podcasts.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: The pitch part and the bio.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I forget to list, like, important things. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I just forgot to, like, link my podcast or my offer." Like, I just overlook it and glance it.
But great conversation and speaking of pitch part, tell the audience where they can find you.
MEGAN NEFF: Give us your pitch.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:50:14].
YUNETTA SMITH: So, you can find me on all… as the lovely lady is knocking on my door to come clean this space and opening it now, I'll be right out. Thank you. Just a moment [FOREIGN LANGUAGE 00:50:30]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:50:31] in Milwaukee.
YUNETTA SMITH: I know, I had to think, "How do I say 30 minutes in Spanish? And she was like, "Oh yeah." I was like-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:50:40]-
YUNETTA SMITH: "She still got it."
PATRICK CASALE: Hold on, let me interrupt. So, when we were in Spain last year, Yunetta decided that she wanted to try to read every menu item imaginable in Spanish to the point of the waiter/waitress and all of the guests who were very hungry just looking at her like, "Shut up."
YUNETTA SMITH: "If you don't stop so we can order our food." I was like, "No, I'm going to read this." And, oh so funny. It was funny.
So, everyone can find me at yunettaspring.com, Yunetta Spring Smith on all social media platforms, groundbreakerstherapy.com, or Groundbreakers Therapy on all platforms, if you're looking for EMDR therapist.
I do have two more trainings this year, one in August, which is virtual and it's a two-part. You can find that on the site. And then, I have a five-day in-person in Mississippi. So, if you want to come to Mississippi for a five-day hang out. It's Mississippi, but it's in a good location, and there's food, restaurants around you know, hotel has a pool, it's clean. I checked it out. That's the last one I went to. I thought I was going to be on the episode of first 48 but I survived to see another day.
So, anyway, I digress. You can find me on all those platforms. Take The Struggle Out Of Self-Care is on Amazon, and you can get my book there, and just connect with me. If you want to get more insight on EMDR, you can text EMDR to 33777, to join my mailing list, and I send like messages out every Friday.
PATRICK CASALE: That's impressive. I need to get [CROSSTALK 00:52:15] those situations going on. All of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to everything Yunetta just listed. Transcripts are also available on our website. We get a lot of questions about where are the transcripts? Every single episode on our website at divergentpod.com has all of the transcripts. And we also upload all of these videos to YouTube.
Yunetta, thank you so much for being on here. I love you. You're amazing.
YUNETTA SMITH: You're welcome. Thank you. Love you too. So great to chat with you, Megan. I love your brain.
MEGAN NEFF: I really adore your brain as well, and I hope we get to have more conversations.
YUNETTA SMITH: Yes, I'm so open to it, all right.
PATRICK CASALE: Divergent Conversations podcast is out on Fridays on all major platforms, YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Goodbye.
