Episode 66: Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs (#2): The Psychology of Entrepreneurship [featuring Corey Wilks]
Aug 08, 2024
Show Notes
Entrepreneurship can on the surface appear to bring the promise of freedom and autonomy, but it also comes with unique psychological challenges that many neurodivergent entrepreneurs struggle to navigate.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Dr. Corey Wilks, a psychologist and executive coach, to explore the intersection of psychology, entrepreneurship, and core values.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover how to leverage the "availability paradox" to make more intentional choices, allowing you to prioritize opportunities that align with your values and long-term goals.
- Using real-life examples, understand the concept of “memento mori” and pursuing long-term fulfillment and meaningful work, even if it doesn't feel good on a daily basis.
- Uncover the importance of core values in preventing burnout and achieving long-term fulfillment, especially for neurodivergent individuals, with practical tips on how to identify and stay aligned with your values.
If you choose to pursue entrepreneurship, consider how aligning your work with your core values could enhance your fulfillment and satisfaction. Remember, saying no to certain things can help you say yes to the ones that truly matter, and bring more meaning and intentionality into your business and life.
More about Corey:
Dr. Corey Wilks is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and Executive Coach who helps the top entrepreneurs in the world clarify what matters, overcome limiting beliefs, and build a values-aligned life and business. His work explores the psychology of success and what gets in our way. And he shares these insights in his weekly newsletter, which you can check out at coreywilkspsyd.com.
- Website: https://coreywilkspsyd.com
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@coreywilkspsyd
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreywilkspsyd
Additional Resources
- Values Exercise: think2perform.com/values
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: Resilient Mind Counseling & Learning Nook
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
MEGAN NEFF: So, to start off our entrepreneur series, I'm really excited to have Dr. Corey Wilks here, who I met just a few months ago through the lab, which I'll probably explain what that is later in the episode.
But Dr. Corey Wilks is a fellow psychologist and also an executive coach who works with and supports top entrepreneurs to help clarify what matters, overcome limiting beliefs, and build a values-aligned life and business.
His work explores the psychology of success and what gets in our way. And he shares these insights in his weekly newsletter, which I have started following. I don't do many newsletters, but I do yours, Corey. And I really like it. And you can check that out at coreywilkspsyd.com.
Corey, it is so glad to have you here. I'm excited for this three-way conversation about neurodivergence and entrepreneurship.
COREY WILKS: Thank you for having me. I am super excited too because I think this is the first podcast I've been on where, like, everybody is like, overtly, like, "Hey, I am neurodivergent." Or, "My wiring is a little different than the norm." So, I'm excited to see how this conversation goes and the chaos that will inevitably ensue.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, Patrick, will organize the chaos for us. But we can run our happiness, and then Patrick, you could be our executive functioning three minutes in. Just kidding, I'm not going to outsource that to you and make you do all that labor for us.
PATRICK CASALE: So, Corey, I don't know you at all. So, tell us a little bit about who you are, how you kind of moved into this entrepreneurial space. I know for myself, like, when we talk about entrepreneurship, I feel like I've been one all my life. Like, I can remember garage sales as a kid, and selling lemonade on my street corner, and, like, always trying to find creative ways to work for myself.
COREY WILKS: Yeah, so I actually don't have a fun story like that, of like, "Since childhood, I've been hustling." Those are great stories. I would be full of shit if I told you that.
So, briefly, my background, I grew up in rural Appalachia, our own food stamps, public housing. Like, at one point we were getting, like, church donations for, like, Thanksgiving turkey and stuff. So, like, I don't come from an entrepreneurial background. I don't come from, like, a more affluent or financially stable background, historically.
For me, when I went to college, which I was the first one of my family to, like, go to, like, a four-year college. And there were a lot of programs that kind of helped facilitate that, in addition to, like, my own grades and things, obviously. But for me, education was a way to kind of break that cycle.
And my family, they were very supportive. You know, my daddy was like, "Hey, use your brain, not your body because, you know, a lot of us, we've used our bodies. And our bodies have gotten broken through the work that we've done. So, don't do that, right?"
So, education was always highly emphasized growing up for me.
So, when I went to college, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to own my own business because entrepreneurship seems like the solid route." I think I made it three weeks into being, like, a business management major, and I was like, "I don't care about economics. The math is way too much, there's no people. Like, where is the emphasis on people in business? You're just telling me about numbers. I don't care about numbers. I care about people."
So, you know, and that's what every psychologist or therapist says. Or like, "I went into this because I don't like math." That's what everybody says. So, that was like, you know, clue number one, floundered for a while, went through a bunch of different majors. I was like a dietetics major, which is like, you know, food nutrition at one point. And then, I was like, "I don't give a shit how much zinc is in asparagus. I don't like chemistry." So, then, like, I bounced around.
And then, finally, I had this required psychology course. It was a developmental course, adult or child development. And it was like, you know, on the syllabus, it was like, Dr. Keelan Hinton or Dr. Hinton. I was like, "Okay." So, I was expecting this, like, old white dude to come in who's like so old and dry when he talks, you know, chalk just poofs out of his armpits or something like that. That was my expectation of, like, this super dry kind of thing.
And in walked this young black dude from Memphis. And like, he didn't speak professorially. He talked like a dude from Memphis, right? And I was like, "You have my attention." He was like, "My name is Dr. Keelan Hinton. I'm your instructor today." And I was like, "I'm sold. Like, because you so break the norm of what I was expecting and what I consistently see." And like, he was covered in tattoos. He dressed, you know, like he wanted to dress. He so didn't fit the mold.
And the way he described psychology and how, like, people are, like puzzles and psychology is how you help them put the pieces in place. Like, literally, that day, I went to the bursar's office or whoever, and changed my major to psychology. And then, got the bachelor's, master's, and doctorate in it because of Keelan, who's still a friend and a mentor to this day. He single-handedly shaped my entire career trajectory.
So, did that, and then, eventually, specialized in integrated primary care, which just means I worked alongside physicians in like medical settings. And then, further specialized in addiction treatment or substance use treatment, right?
And after I graduated, I got, you know, the big boy job of specializing in substance use treatment at a facility, at a medical clinic. And COVID happened. I had negotiated a remote telehealth position because my girlfriend had moved.
Two months into that new contract I got an email from my main boss. And she was like, "Hey, you're fired. In 30 days, you're gone." I was like, "What happened?"
And it was like, "Your, you know, patients love you, co-workers love you, your paperwork's awesome, you're seeing plenty of people. By the book, you are a model employee. But we are starting to pull everybody back into the clinics despite, you know, all the comorbidities with that population and everybody being afraid with COVID and things." They were like, "We're pulling everybody back in. Because you are exclusively remote and you have moved to a different state, you are fired."
The day I got that email, we had a staff meeting for all the therapists, the behavioral health providers. And in that meeting, they were like, "You know, guys, we're understaffed. We need to hire more."
And I was like, "You fired me today." They're like, "Yeah, but you're doing addiction treatment. Like, we need more people for, like, primary care stuff." I'm like, "I do both." They're like, "Oh, well, do you want to maybe talk to the boss to see?" I was like, "No, I'm good." I'll refrain from, you know, the more vulgar way I said it. But I was like, "No, I'm good."
So, as you all may know, I think, Patrick, are you a counselor? Correct? Is that…? Okay. So, I don't know how counseling works, but for psychology, I can be anywhere in the world and do a remote telehealth session. But you as my patient have to physically be in the state I'm licensed in during that call. You don't have to be a resident of that state. You have to physically be in that state.
I'm licensed in West Virginia. And at the time, I was living in Kentucky. So, I couldn't find another remote job out of West Virginia. I wasn't willing to move back because we had just moved. And in order for me to get licensed in Kentucky, it would have taken four to six months because the board only met every other month. They only saw like three people for licensure at a time.
And I was like, "I've spent 12 years of my life to practice therapy and I literally can't practice therapy anymore. So, I have 30 days and three paychecks worth of runway to figure out my life."
So, it was like, I guess entrepreneurship is the way to go. It's a full circle moment because I originally went to college for entrepreneurship, bailed on it, and now I'm right back where I started.
So, that's my story. Like, honestly, like, I got fired and couldn't get another job. So, decided, I guess I'm going to run a business without any business background, no training. I didn't know any entrepreneurs. Like, I literally from December, you know, I mean, until now, December 4th, 2020 until now, I just Google stuff and YouTube stuff, and over time I've met a lot of incredibly awesome, and gracious, and kind entrepreneurs, and content creators and things who've helped me along the way. So, that's my story. I did not start selling lemonade, or hustling candy bars, or, you know, CDs, or something, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a powerful story because it's one that you have to adapt out of absolute necessity, right? And this realization of like, "Oh shit, my world has just been turned upside down very unexpectedly." And of course, the communication, and like the reasoning never matches up and it never makes sense.
I remember leaving my community mental health job and being like, "He'll be back in 30 days. Nobody makes it on their own." And I was like, "I've been here for years, like, why are we talking about it this way?"
But I think mental health culture and entrepreneurialship don't always go hand in hand in that regard. And it's empowering when you see people who are like, I've got to figure it out, and I'm going to learn as I go, and I'm going to, like, pivot, and adapt, and evolve, and make mistakes, and I'm going to stumble. But this is mine, and I think the ownership component allows for such a energy boost when you're like, I have to make this work. Like, I am not going to let this come crumbling down.
COREY WILKS: Yeah-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:12:22]-
COREY WILKS: I definitely don't recommend my journey to most people, but it worked for me. Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I was just going to say it's interesting because I think before you hopped on Patrick and I just recorded our, like, intro for the series. And I think I had my internal, like, resistance to doing a series on neurodivergence and entrepreneurship. I was like, I'm fearing we'll isolate some of our listeners because it's like, it feels so privileged to talk about, like, owning our own businesses and being an entrepreneur.
But I think what you capture is a really important part of the conversation too, which is, it's often birthed out of urgency. And yeah, I'm just thinking about how frantic that would be to be like, I have 30 days. I am a doctor. I'm sure you have hundreds of thousands of like, student loan debt. And to be like, because, yeah, I've been in that position where I'm waiting on the board for my license to come through, and you literally can't work until that piece of paper comes through. Yeah, that's wild.
COREY WILKS: Well, and that's why, like, I try to start my story with, like, look, like I grew up in poverty. Like, I didn't grow up, you know, privileged in a lot of those. Like, we all have privilege in one way or another, like, depending on how you want to slice it. But like, from a financial standpoint, or, like, knowing college graduates or knowing entrepreneurs, I didn't have that privilege, right? I had the privilege of an incredibly supportive family, but I had to learn everything as I went, right?
Like, when you grow up in an entrepreneurial, you know, environment that is incredibly helpful, right? Like, you understand, you know, money management, or, you know, spinning up an LLC, or, you know, basic things like that. But if you don't grow up in that, you're just like, where do I start? Right?
And that, you know, when you're trying to just start a business, one thing that's really helped me, because I definitely went more of like the solopreneur route, like solopreneur content creator. Because, like, I write and I coach, right? And I create courses and things. Those are majority of the things that I do. That is significantly simpler to do, that is a far lower barrier to entry versus like, taking out a bunch of business loans to like spin up, like a direct to consumer, big, you know, I'm going to ship a product, and like things you see on Shark Tank, right? Those are a little harder to do, for sure. They're still doable. People do it all the time, but that is more intimidating versus I'm going to spin up a website, I'm going to offer to help people with various services, and I'm going to continue to learn because the more I learn, the more I can offer to others, right? That is probably about as simple of a business as you can spin up, that honestly doesn't take a lot of money or intelligence to do.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and it's so ADHD-friendly, right? Because it's like, I'm constantly learning. It was interesting, I was hearing some of the ADHD in your story, both like you were floating in college until you found something that caught your interest and therefore, your attention. And then, it was when urgency kicked in that you were like, "Okay." And you went and you learned.
And I think ADHDers because it's challenging, it's interesting, like, I think we do really well. They're like, "Well, let me just figure out how to do this and to do that." And now there's so many platforms like Canva. If Canva didn't exist, my business wouldn't exist. And so, there's so many new platforms that make it so much more accessible I think for ADHDers to really, like, lean into our interest and curiosity, and then in a way where we can start a business out of it.
I could never start a, like, anything that required shipping, or that sort of executive functioning, like I wouldn't be able to do it. Like, my brain nearly breaks with all the business side of things. But if it's like, okay, create something in Canva, upload it to the internet. I'm like, "Okay, I can do that."
COREY WILKS: Exactly. And my business is, let me fire off, you know, an article or a newsletter every week. Let me make some videos. Let me just share my thoughts online, on social media, and then, offer to, like, you know, if you want to buy my courses, cool. If you want to work with me one-on-one for coaching, awesome, you know, reach out. Because what is all of it? All of that is me exploring my own curiosity and doing work that I have high conviction is worth doing. So, it's exciting. And it's mostly just me talking and thinking out loud. I can do that all day. But if you want me to do logistics and like minutia, like very deteriorated things, like, I'm not your guy.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally. I can absolutely relate to that. And I think there's a winning combination here for neurodivergent mental health entrepreneurs because you have the ability to be processing some of these thoughts, and ideas, and concepts, and support strategies out loud and framing them in a way that a lot of people don't always often have the language to put to the conversation. And it allows you to kind of see people in a different light and help them feel more comfortable taking risks, stepping into creative ventures, like working through some of the self-doubt and security emotional struggle that comes with being a small business owner because it's a fucking roller coaster ride.
Like, there are definitely days where I'm like, "I want to pack up ship and like, never do this again." But the autonomy and the freedom, and the creative expression, and the ability to make my own schedule far outweighs everything else when it comes down the line.
COREY WILKS: So, a couple guiding principles that have really helped me personally and professionally, and things that I also use, like, in my coaching practice with people. So, one, I'm a big, like, memento mori fan. So, memento mori is stoic concept that, basically, means remember death or remember you will die. Like, my whole like, right tattoo sleeve is dedicated to memento mori. I've got like, for people watching, I've got, like, the skull and like the raven over here, and a bunch of shit.
It isn't meant to be depressing. It's meant to basically be a reminder to use your mortality as a motivator to live fully. Right? Like, what can you do with the time you have? How can you appreciate or cherish what you have while you have it? Whatever that is, whoever that is, okay? It allows you to just be much more intentional with your actions and much more grateful for your circumstances okay? That has really, really helped me.
But another related guiding principle I have is I'm a big proponent of core values work. I actually, like, I never really learned ACT, like acceptance to commitment therapy modalities because like I know-
MEGAN NEFF: Seriously?
COREY WILKS: Yeah, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Because I read your notes, I'm like, "Oh, he's ACT." Like, because, yeah, I use a lot of ACT. That's so interesting.
COREY WILKS: So, quick tangent on this. Literally, we had a single ACT, like six-week seminar in my doc program. And the dude who taught it clearly didn't understand ACT because we spent four weeks on, like, something about like context versus-
MEGAN NEFF: Selfish context. Selfish context is the most confusing principle. I'm like, this is where you lose people, stick to the concrete stuff like the values, and the like, diffusion techniques. Yeah, selfish context, I'm always like, this is way too… Like, I'm philosophical, but this is too abstract.
COREY WILKS: But that's what he led with, was that, and we're all just like, "Fuck this. It's bullshit."
So, like, way afterward, did I, like, you know, get into like Man's Search for Meaning and, like, some other stuff around values and meaning. I was like, "Oh, this is fucking dope. Like, why didn't you just lead with this shit?"
So, yeah. So, I never learned ACT, right? But I do a lot with values work, which is, yeah, ironic.
So, my core value is freedom, okay? And for me, every idea, every opportunity has the potential to move you one step closer to or one step further away from a life aligned with your core value, whatever that is, okay? So, for me, that's freedom. I'm also highly oppositional. We can get into that.
But so, shortly after I started my business, because again, December 4th, 2020, my last official day as an employee, in January of 2021, I, long story short, basically, got a really bad infection. I do martial arts, and it was just like a freak thing that like I thought I had fractured my leg. And I was like, "Oh, it's fine. I just lost health insurance. I'm in the US. Health insurance is a whole thing. Like, health care is a whole thing. So, I'll just walk it off." Because if it's like a hairline fracture, it'll heal. It's fine. I'll just take it easy for a couple days. Not good logic. I don't recommend that to anybody.
Well, it wasn't a fracture, it was a an incredibly bad infection that I didn't catch until my ankle to my knee was, like, red, and purple, and spider veining, okay? Went to the hospital. They're like, "Oh, yeah, this is a super bad infection. Here's some antibiotics. If it gets worse within 24 hours come back immediately so we can prep you for surgery."
Well, it got way worse. They put me back on an IV antibody drip, but because this is COVID, all the beds were full. They're like, "We can't transfer you to surgery yet. There are no beds."
I was unresponsive to the IV antibiotics. Like, they weren't doing anything. And I was sitting here in this, like private waiting room area for like 16 hours on this drip that wasn't working, waiting for a bed because they were like, "Hey, if this infection has gotten into your bloodstream, your bones, you could die. And the labs are taking a long time to get back, so we don't even know if it's gotten life-threatening, yet." It was hella stressful.
And like the TV in the room, you couldn't turn off. There wasn't a remote, you couldn't change the channel, you couldn't even unplug it, and it was stuck on HGTV. Because of classical conditioning, to this day, when I see an HGTV show, I get nauseous, and my leg hurts because it was, like, such a low-key, like stressful, like low key traumatic experience. So, and my girlfriend, she was just like a while ago, "Oh, HGTV." I was like, "Fuck that."
They finally transferred me to surgery. They're like, "Hey, your surgery is tomorrow morning, but you're in bed for now. So, you know, we'll monitor. Since the IV antibiotics are not working, we're going to pull them from you, still waiting for labs to come back."
So, I was just all night, no meds, no information, just waiting as this infection coursed through my body. And I remember sitting there in that hospital bed with nobody for company, no visitors because of COVID thinking I could die tonight or tomorrow. What if this had been my last week alive? Am I satisfied with how I spent my time?
Which to me, is a much more effective thought experiment than, "Well, what if I had 30 days to live?" Like, if you know what's coming, you can fucking party, you can go skydiving, you can do all sorts of shit. Like, that isn't as helpful versus, if you can only look back in retrospect and say, "Am I satisfied with how I already spent my time?"
And that week, my answer was yes. I don't want to go out. And, you know, spoiler alert, I didn't fucking die. But like, I'm satisfied if I do go out. What did I do that week? I coached people. I was writing. I could go down, you know, to make lunch with my girlfriend at noon because I work for myself, right? And worked from home.
Shortly after that, and you know, I had recovered, I got a job offer working for, like, remote telehealth, for, like, a big-name company. And they were like, "Hey, we'll pay you more than you were making. Do you want to work for us but it'll be 40 to 60 hours?"
And I was like, "Man, that's really good money." But my core value is freedom, and my ultimate goal is to live a life, and build a business aligned with my core value of freedom. Does this opportunity get me one step closer to or further away from that life?
And for me, that answer was, despite the money, it would move me further away from this life because 40 to 60 hours I'm working for them is 40, 60 hours I'm not doing the things that I truly, deeply enjoy doing. Because, you know, one day I will ask, you know, if this had been my last week alive, am I satisfied? Well, one day will have been my last week of life, right?
So, every week since then I ask this question and every time my answer is, "No, I'm not satisfied." I'm like, "Okay, well, what the fuck are my reasons for saying no?" Let me prioritize removing or minimizing those things so that when I ask myself that again next week my answer will be, "Yes, I'm satisfied." So, that, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Can I-
COREY WILKS: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Can I run with this for a little bit? I love this. So, when I, like, deep dive into a topic it becomes my lens for like two months, and then… So, Patrick is used to this. He'll, like, hear all about it.
So, my lens right now is the interest-based nervous system. I've always loved values work, but now I have more of a conceptualization of why. So, part of the interest-based nervous system is meaning and so passion, which is really meaning, and values, and purpose. It's interesting. Dr. Dodson talks about how only about one in four people actually get to locate their meaning and values. But I think, especially, given how the ADHD nervous system gets engaged, getting some clarification on our values is so helpful, whether you're an entrepreneur or not.
And I'll just do a quick plug for folks, if you're, like, values, how to identify this. There's a lot of, like, online value sorts, and we'll link to some in the episode where, essentially, a value card sort is where you have like 50 values, and then you do really quick, like, filtering if this is important, this is not, and you identify your, like, top five. I think this is so great for ADHDers as a lens in all of life, of like is this… Because something Patrick and I talk a lot about is how hard it is to say no. And so, that question of, is this moving me closer to that core value or further away from it? Is this a yes that moves me which direction? I think this is a framework that is so helpful for us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. And I was actually making videos on this topic yesterday, differentiating between, like, the push/pull of autism ADHD experience. And I think stepping back when you can to reevaluate, like, is this in alignment with my values? Is this going to create more energy? Is this going to create more passion, and fulfillment, and contentment? Or is this just saying yes to another opportunity, or another project, or another impulsive idea?
And constantly, trying really hard to reevaluate that for myself because I know that is a preventative measure for burnout for me because I can get so many ideas, opportunities, partnerships, whatever. It's easy to say yes to all these things, but if they're not aligned with your values, they're going to be significantly more draining. They're going to be so much more exhausting.
So, I love your example of, like, saying no to the money, to actually pursue the thing that feels values-aligned.
And for me and for so many entrepreneurs, that is a constant reevaluation process of like, let me really deep dive what is important to me. I always go back to what is my why. What is my why and how is that playing a role in the decisions that I'm making going forward, not only as a leader, as a boss, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, constantly trying to ensure that feels like it's an alignment because that's when you feel the most creative, the most energized, the most excited about the work we're doing, even when it gets challenging. And I think that's just a really, really important point.
MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, I'm curious, so Corey's core value is freedom, which totally makes sense. What would you say your core value is? I'm curious if it connects to your business experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I have a split one between freedom and autonomy. It's always been-
MEGAN NEFF: Autonomy is my number one.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's got to be the ability to make my own decisions. I've joked about this before, maybe on my other podcast, more than this one that I'm not employable anymore. And I really don't think that I am. Because working a 9:00 to 5:00 or 60-hour work weeks, getting the work done in half the time, or a third of the time, and then, still having to be in the environment without like, why? Just because this is what we do. No, I would much rather be able to say I want to take tomorrow off. I want to work 12 hours today and then go on vacation. I want to work remotely. Like, I want to make those decisions. And to me, there's really nothing more important than that.
MEGAN NEFF: So, one thing I'll… And this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I'm curious if you all relate to this. So, I think a lot of entrepreneurs go into entrepreneurship because we probably have a core value around freedom or autonomy.
One thing I've been wrestling with, and I see this a lot is so I do have a higher level of autonomy than if I was still in the hospital setting. But I have created a trap because I always talk about how I've created like a Frankenstein monster of a business because I just keep adding and adding and adding. And I work 10-hour days. Often, I work seven days a week. Like, that's not actually a whole lot of freedom or autonomy.
And so, my struggle now is, like, all of that self-imposed tasks and demands that I've accidentally created through my Frankenstein business. So, I do have big picture autonomy, but on my day-to-day, I actually don't have the thing that I set out to have, if that makes sense.
COREY WILKS: So, for me, a couple things. One, going back to, like, the freedom versus autonomy thing. So, like, I have my own, like, values audit card sort that I that I have for free. And then, like, my course, which is based on, like, my main coaching framework is all about values and stuff like that. So, I know what you all are saying.
The common question I get from people with you know, "Oh, well, I've narrowed down my top three values. One is freedom, one is autonomy, one is this, one is that." Like, and they'll say, "Corey, what is the difference for you? What is the difference between freedom and autonomy for you?"
And I was like, my answer is always the same. What I think doesn't fucking matter. How do you define it? Because the same way you are defining autonomy may be how I define freedom. So, ultimately, our values are the same. We just have a different word for it, right? So, I always recommend, like, never get too wrapped up in, like, this specific term, as long as the flavor of it resonates with you, okay? So, that's always a really big thing because it sounds like we're all like on, you know, basically, on the same page.
With your thing of, despite my core value of autonomy or freedom, I feel like I spend, you know, every day not being free. I work seven days a week too, but that's because I actively choose to, right? Like, for me, going on a vacation and not being able to write for a week or two isn't what I want to do, right? Like, it would be painful for me of like, "Hey Corey, you have to go to the beach for a week and you can't write." I would be like-
MEGAN NEFF: I relate to that. I relate to that. Just a couple weeks ago, I was talking to Patrick about my lack of hobbies and how I, like, asked ChatGPT, like, "Give me some hobbies."
So, you're right. Like, part of it is work is play. But then when it has made that turn to it's like, lately, it's felt less like play. It's felt more like, "Oh, my inbox is at 50 and I have to go do that."
[CROSSTALK 00:36:17] But yes, also, like, if I'm bored, it's like, "Okay, I'll go work on a design or I'll go work on something." And that's interesting to me.
COREY WILKS: That, and I think that's when we're getting into, you know, are the things that you have put on your plate aligned, like values-aligned, right? So, you know, you may have seen this, I don't know because you've subscribed, but a little bit ago, I talked about what I call the availability paradox, which is effectively why defaulting to no actually frees you to say yes in the future because when you say no to one thing, you leave yourself open to say yes. But if you say yes to one thing, you have automatically said no to 100 others, right? Because when I say yes, I will take care of that, yes, I will take on this project, you have also said, I am no longer available for a future project that may be better aligned, right? Which is why I like to default to no first so that I can be much more intentional with the few things I do say yes to. So, that may or may not be coming into play of like, is everything on my plate actually what I want to be doing, or have I just kind of said yes out of obligation for something that I'm not actually obligated to do or required to do, right?
If it is like, no all this stuff is what I want to be doing, I'm getting bogged down, then that may be, you know, like an Eisenhower matrix, right? Of like, are there things you can reasonably outsource or batch, or things like that? Because I think we all as entrepreneurs run into that for sure, of eventually, we just say yes to so many things that are exciting. We're just like, fuck, okay, now maintenance is kicking in and kicking my ass because now I have 15 projects I have to maintain and I'm not a maintainer. I am a starter, not a maintainer.
MEGAN NEFF: You know, okay, that should be a tagline. I'm a starter, not a maintainer. And I mean, that's a great, talking about like ADHD accommodations, like hiring out the maintainer, and which I'm terrible at, and I think that's more my autism of like, I'm not good at releasing things to other people. But yeah, like, if I could hire out a maintainer, and if I could just start projects then, like, I would be happy for a very long time.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I think the delegation process can be so challenging to relinquish that control, but it can be so freeing, too, in so many ways to say. Like, if I don't want to be in my inbox, how do I outsource my inbox? How do I outsource the things that are actually taking energy from me instead of sparking energy for me? I think about that a lot.
One of the best things that's ever happened to me as an entrepreneur is when I had major throat surgery a couple years ago, and one of my vocal cords got damaged. And that may sound strange, but it really allowed me to put things in perspective, in terms of what I was saying yes and no to. And what I was saying yes to a lot before that was individual coaching, group coaching programs, creating all of these different streams of revenue. The individual coaching was sucking the life out of me. I just don't enjoy it. I would always prefer group stuff over individual stuff. It feels more like a therapy session in that regard. And it's not for me.
So, I haven't said yes to individual coaching in almost two years, despite getting an enormous amount of requests for it. And I refer it all out.
And at first, it was so hard. It was so hard to turn that money away. It was so hard to say like, "I just went through this major thing and I'm going to turn away a large portion of my revenue, and my income." But it has allowed me to free up space and energy to focus on the things that do create that desire, that passion, that excitement. And it's much better suited now that my energy levels are significantly different, and my vocal capacity is significantly more diminished. So, it is about really, like, reprioritizing as we go sometimes, as life happens to us, as well.
COREY WILKS: That and like, so this is why, like, I'm a huge fan of like, courses. So, like, one self-paced course is like, I can just pack up, you know, what I want to share on a given topic into a self-paced curriculum that obviously people are asking for. And then, I can occasionally update it, but if I make it solid enough, and it's, you know, reasonably evergreen, that doesn't require much maintenance, right? Like, sort of like a set it and forget it, sort of a thing.
With coaching, I still like to do some one-on-one coaching because one, I love going deep with people. But when I work with that person, I get so many deep insights about other people like them that I can then turn into free content that can help a lot of other people, and potentially future courses and things right.
So, obviously, you know, do or don't do coaching, right? But for me, I found it helpful to see how this one-on-one coaching tie into all of the other things I want to do that has really helped me, right? Because if, for me personally, again, like I'm just oppositional as a person, if I feel like what I'm doing doesn't matter or to me doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, I burn out incredibly quickly, right? Like, my capacity for burnout, I am so susceptible to it, right? Which is why I make a terrible employee.
So, learning to be like, oh, this connects to this over here, it is meaningful, it is worthwhile. That helps me stay in it. So, I try to be very intentional with. Again, the things that I do say yes to, they have to matter.
One other thing I do want to say, and I talk about this a little bit in my course, is I don't, if you all know who Justin Wren is, W-R-E-N. His nickname is the Big Pygmy. He's an MMA fighter. So, his name is Big Pygmy, but he's, you know, obviously, big ass white dude.
And the reason he got his nickname is he will go to the Congo and help the Pygmy population. He will help them, like, dig wells and gain access to, like, clean drinking water. And he helps with a lot of other like, basic civil rights, sort of things. He's a huge, like, champion for the Pygmy population, so he's got his nickname.
He's a great example of doing meaningful work, even if it doesn't feel good on a day-to-day. So, in psychology we have anhedonia, right? Anhedonia is the term when you no longer find joy or pleasure in things that used to be pleasurable, right? It's one of the hallmark symptoms of depression, anhedonia.
Hedonia or hedonism is pleasure-seeking, okay? Just very, very brief etymology lesson, right? Hedonia, pleasure-seeking, anhedonia, you don't enjoy things. There is a third term that is called eudaimonia. Okay, good luck spelling it.
The reason I love Justin's story is the thing a lot of people get tripped up on when we talk about, like the hedonic treadmill, right? And constantly chasing pleasure or chasing more and more and more, right? When you chase money, when you get money, you want more money. When you chase followers, when you get them, you want more, right? Like, this is just constant on this treadmill of more, more, more. The issue with that when it comes to long-term projects and other things, is if you're chasing hedonia then you're chasing something that feels good that day. So, when things stop feeling good, you bounce, right? Like, you jump to something else, or you try to get more, right?
Eudaimonia is, basically, another word for fulfillment or something that is intrinsically rewarding. The thing with eudaimonia is it may not always feel good on a day-to-day basis, but over the long term, it is worthwhile.
So, Justin has gotten malaria like three times going down to help the Pygmy population. And he gets all the vaccines and shit, but apparently, even that, like, you can still just get malaria, okay? So, if you ask Justin on a day he has malaria, "Hey, Justin, do you feel good today? Like, are you experiencing hedonia?" He would be like, "Fuck, no. Like, I have malaria. Malaria is super painful. Like, I am in agony."
But if you said, "Hey, Justin, despite how you feel today, is helping this population worth it in the long run?" And he will say, "Yes, every day."
That, to me, is what building a life and a business aligned with your values allows you to tap into, is that intrinsic reward, is that even though this may not necessarily feel good today, it is so deeply rewarding over the long run that allows me to stay in this category of work, even though there's variation, this category of work for the long term. That is what has personally helped me continue to write, and build a business, and to coach, and do courses and things because I deeply believe that even though on a day-to-day basis it might suck sometimes, of like, you know, this draft is kicking my ass, or, you know, this client didn't close, or you know, my next video didn't get a lot of views, whatever that is, despite that, on the long run, it's worthwhile because I want to help people build a more meaningful, purpose-driven, fulfilling life. And this is where I feel I am uniquely suited to give that value is through what I've learned as a psychologist and a coach.
MEGAN NEFF: So, here's a question for both you and Patrick. So, there's this common thing in ADHD, out of sight, out of mind. So, I'm curious if you have noticed this, Corey, with… because I know you work with a lot of ADHD entrepreneurs, not on purpose, but just because you've noticed a lot of entrepreneurs who are ADHD and Patrick, I'm curious about you.
I'll start with the question to you, Patrick, are there things you do to keep the meaning front and center? Like, do you feel like you have to remind yourself this is why I do it? Because I know for me, I have to actively remind myself. Otherwise, like, the shit days that's going to be what's front and center is, like, "This is shit. Maybe I should sell my business." So, yeah, I'm curious if there's things either of you do to keep it front and center of mind.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, front and center is always the relational component. I'm really relationally driven. So, even on the days where I'm thinking, "Oh, my group practice is a pain in my ass." And Megan, you've heard me say this many times to you via text and on here, the relationships, the ability to watch people grow, and develop, and become more authentically themselves as professionals, and gain clinical competency, and feel really good about having a supportive work environment, those things really drive me. It really feels good to be able to create a container that feels supportive, and validating, and affirming.
And the same thing that goes for my coaching programs, my retreats, my summits, my podcast. Like, I want to bring out the best out of people. I want people to feel comfortable being themselves and really sharing the things that have kept them feeling small, or trapped, or scared.
And that, for me, I think, has always felt like a life's purpose of just trying as hard as I can to model certain things, and behaviors, and even struggle areas to allow for other people to drop in, be themselves, be comfortable, embrace their strengths, embrace their skill sets, and put them out into the world.
And that's kind of what I revisit a lot of the time when I'm stressed about things not selling, things not going the way I want them to, the inevitable, like random 9 million things that can go wrong in one day at a time when it feels like it's snowballing. But I always try to circle back to like, that relational element and just having people feel comfortable, feeling seen, and being affirmed in that regard.
COREY WILKS: For me, it kind of comes back to memento mori. So, I believe that too many people let fear and other things hold them back from pursuing a more fulfilling life. And then, they get to their deathbed, and look back on their life filled with regret, right?
And then, like, there's that that book, like the Top Five Regrets of the Dying or whatever. Like, I know that's anecdotal, but generally speaking, we tend to regret the things we didn't do more than the things that we did do, right? Because if I do something and I make a mistake, I can typically take corrective action. I can apologize, I can make amends. But if I don't do something, it's really difficult to "fix" that because there's an absence there, right?
So, if I don't put myself or my ideas out there, and then I get to my deathbed, I'm like, "Well, fuck, there's nothing I can do now." Like, I can't apologize to somebody, I can't fix it. Like, I can't go back in time and do that thing right.
I deeply believe people want to live a more fulfilling life, but either they don't have the clarity on what that is or they know what that is, but due to limiting beliefs, fears, toxic personal narratives, other insecurities, shit like that, that holds them back. So then, they're like, "I know that this would be a more meaningful life for me, but either I believe I am not capable of achieving it, or I am too afraid to attempt to achieve it. I'm just going to kind of stay small, and then I just continue to take that throughout my life."
And then, when I get to the end of my life, I'm like, "Fuck all I have is looking back on regrets." I, with my finite amount of time want to help as many people as I can avoid that life of "mediocrity." Mediocrity defined as not doing the thing you know you're capable of doing and you want to do, okay? Whatever that means for you personally, right? I want to help as many people as I can avoid that, to actually do the more meaningful, purpose-driven fulfilling work that they will enjoy their life, they will go on to impact others, things like that.
So, for me, I'm like, okay, you know, this thing today sucks, but if I can persevere through this, this is meaningful. This will help other people improve their own lives, and then they will go out, and impact other people.
So, like I said before, like, I had to connect the work that I do with, you know, not like a higher purpose necessarily, but like a bigger picture thing, a more meaningful thing. That really helps me, right? Is things like that.
And two things. One, I think a lot of people who are more public facing struggle just as much, if not more, with insecurity as everybody else. Like you know, we're not like paragons of courage or some shit. But one of the things that has helped me is a lot of times insecurity and that type of anxiety is very selfish, meaning it is focused on the self. What I have found really helpful for me is focusing on my audience and what other people need, right?
So, if you think about, like, if you're at a restaurant and you struggle with like, you know, speaking up for yourself, if they get your order wrong, you may just be like, "Oh, okay, it's fine, whatever." But if you have a kid or a friend with, like, a food allergy, and then they get that order wrong you're like, "Hey, hey, they need this over here." Right? Like, you instantly kick into that, like, you know, Mama Bear mode, or whatever that mode is, right? Like, suddenly you are more courageous because you are focusing on what someone else needs, rather than your own insecurities about that thing, right?
When I go, and I speak, and I do things for an audience, especially, like right before I immediately have to pee. I had to pee right before we go on this fucking call, right? Hands get sweaty, I got to pee. Like, that isn't going to go away, right? And I've accepted that. But I'm focusing more on what do people need to hear? What do people need to know or understand that will help them? And as soon as I shift my focus, my own "anxiety or insecurity" is negligible because I'm too focused on what other people would benefit from, that allows me to continually put myself and my ideas out there because I'm not being selfish. I'm not focusing on myself. I'm focusing on, what do other people need in this situation? That's really, really helped me. Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's this concept I love from Positive Psychology, obviously, you know it because you're referencing it without referencing it, which is this idea of the quiet ego. And I'm blanking on the presenter, it'll probably come off back to me after we're done recording, but I heard him give a talk, and it was so well done. And he was talking about, like, what is the right amount of self-esteem? And it's like, this, Goldilocks, like, too low, too high.
And what he, essentially, came back with is that's the wrong premise, that's the wrong question. It's not about, like, just the Goldilocks amount of self-esteem. It's about this idea of quiet ego. Quiet ego is when we are so tapped in to something else which is tied to meaning and purpose, that we're not thinking about the self.
And I think this is something that collective cultures do much better than white, westernized industrial cultures do. But like, there's now, like, more and more research around quiet ego and like, life satisfaction and meaning. Like, it's a really good thing. And we don't live in a culture that supports quiet ego. I think a lot of the criticism around social media, which I always nuance the criticism around social media because it's great for disabled folks to connect. But a lot of that classic criticism around social media is it puts so much focus on the self, and then comparing self to other selves versus this idea of quiet ego where we are immersed in something much bigger than us.
COREY WILKS: Very much. And like, there… Go ahead, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE:No, I'm just reflecting on that, but I agree 100%. I think that's really true. We definitely live in a comparison culture in the United States and a lot of the western parts of the world. So, it's challenging to take that step back sometimes and like, reflect on, how am I showing up for other people? How is this impacting other people? Opposed to just how am I feeling about the situation or the experience, too?
MEGAN NEFF: So, another thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is RSD, rejection, sensitive dysphoria, really common with ADHDers. That can look like I'm focusing on someone else, but it's actually, like, if I'm so worried about, like, what my audience is going to see this or my RSD is triggered because someone has taken offense to something I've said, it's still about me versus like, okay, let me think about that person's experience.
And so, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of ways, I think, especially, for ADHDers we can kind of get sucked into self-mode, often, in a critical way. And I think an anecdote to that, yes, boosting self-esteem, but I think a more powerful anecdote is quiet ego and getting… And I think that's part of the why flow state's so powerful for us, is we're immersed in something outside the self. That's kind of different, but I think it's a kind of similar concept as well.
COREY WILKS: It's a lot around, like cognitive, you know, reframing, and being more intentional with your expectations, right? So, the other thing I was going to say is, like Jerry Seinfeld, he was on Howard Stern or something, and he had this really great quote that I'm sure I'll butcher, but was basically, "Your joy in life is when you find the torture…" Or, "Your blessing in life is when you find the torture you're comfortable with."
And what he means is, you know, he was talking about how, like, he's never off. He's always thinking of a joke. And Howard Stern was like, because Jerry was like, "I'm never fully present. Like, I'm always thinking of a joke. I'm always thinking of how can I make this a beat?"
And Howard was like, "So, you're never present? Like, not even with your wife or your kids?" And Jerry was like, "I'm not even fully present right now." He was like, "I'm never, ever fully present." And Howard was like, "That sounds torturous." And he was like, "It is, it is. But it is my torture that I love, that I have accepted."
And for me, you know, Megan, you said you enjoy my newsletter, which I'm very grateful for. And may, you know, at some point hit you for a testimonial for that if you continue to like it. But sometimes people, like, they'll say like, "Hey, Corey, I enjoy your writing." Or, "Hey, you know, I like how you think. This must be easy for you."
And I always tell people writing to me every single… whether it is a tweet or a 5000-word article, every time I write it feels like belly crawling through broken glass. It is excruciating for me to write because, again, especially, if we're talking about, like, neurodivergent shit, the idea I have in my head, I'm like, "Oh, it's fucking perfectly formed." And as soon as I try to get that shit onto the page, I'm like, "I'm just a monkey with a typewriter. Like, what the fuck is this? Like, this makes no…" Especially, if I'm trying to write it for people who aren't wired like me, I'm just like, "I have to prune this bitch because I can't go on 15 pages in a single article. Like, I have to do this." It's excruciating for me to create a coherent narrative for a piece.
But like I said before, if you were like, "Hey, Corey, you know, you can go to Bali for two weeks, or a month, or you travel Europe for a year, but you cannot write at all." I'm like, "I pass, let me just be a hermit in my office and write." I can't not write. I am compelled to write despite how torturous it is because I love writing so much, because I connect writing to a larger purpose beyond me, to helping other people. Writing is the one thing that helps me, that when I write the world makes sense despite how torturous it is.
And I think that if you can find what that is for you, and writing is aligned with that, with freedom for me, okay? I enjoy the process itself of writing. And I think that is a really important expectation to set of, I can love this, and it be painful at the same time because part of… It's almost like a rite of passage to create anything truly worthwhile, you have to find your own way of dealing with, like, that sucky part, the messy middle, the dip. Like, there's been a lot of terms, resistance, there's been a lot of terms for it. Anything worthwhile I feel, personally, has an element of adversity in it that you have to find a way to conquer, overcome, persevere through in some way. That is one of the things that makes it worthwhile.
MEGAN NEFF: I love this because I think… So, something, again, the psychological concept of this is distress tolerance, but basically, that means a person's ability to tolerate distress. And this is something that tends to be lower for ADHDers, especially, ADHDers who are also gifted because things often, especially, for gifted ADHDers, things have often come easily. Like, Patrick, I put you in that camp. And so as soon as something doesn't come easily, it's like, nope.
So, distress tolerance is a skill I think of as like a muscle, a muscle that needs to be strengthened. And I think, essentially, partly, what I'm hearing you say is we also need to find ways to tolerate the distress that comes with what we're doing. And I think that is something that is harder for a lot of ADHDers, which is probably why a lot of folks maybe start a business, and then maybe start several businesses. I think because that part of it can be more challenging for us.
COREY WILKS: I don't recommend a lot of books just generally. And people are always like, "Oh, Corey, what psychology books do you recommend?" Like, I don't have psychology books to recommend because, you know, grad school. I don't typically read psychology books.
But on that topic of, like, distress, tolerance, and giftedness, and shit. So, like, you know, I was in like, the fancy classes, the AP classes and shit, never really had to study, got through undergrad, master's reasonably easy. Got through honestly most of my doctorate reasonably easy except for, like, you know, neuro shit, because neuro's like too much memorizing and my memory is fucking awful, and quant because of math. But it was reasonably simple.
But then when I got to entrepreneurship, it was like nobody cares how smart you are. Like, you don't have a work ethic. And your lack of work ethic is shit, you got to figure out. Your ability to tolerate the emotional roller coaster of entrepreneurship, that's what you're going to be tested on daily now, right? Not like just learning the system of what's going to be on the test and then just doing that. So, that was, you know, a punch in the throat for me when I first got into this because all the skills I thought I had in school, I actually didn't have. I could just compensate, right?
Two books that I… Other than like Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, obviously, that I highly recommend, especially, for entrepreneurs, ADHD, distress tolerance, cognitive reframing, all of those types of things because modern psychology, generally, is rooted in ancient philosophy, right? Especially, with like Albert Ellis and REBT and all of those shit. I always like to go back to the source of, like, stoicism and Buddhism. Those have personally really helped me because they're very practical philosophies and mindsets. You can take all the spirituality out of it. It doesn't matter about that.
The two books I typically recommend people start off with, one is the Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday. It's very, very easy to read. It's literally just like a one page a day thing that you can read. It's a great introduction to stoicism, very easy to understand.
And because stoicism is all about, how can you focus on what is within your control, rather than all the things outside of your control? Right? You can't control what happens, but you can control how you respond to what happens. That's been incredibly helpful for me, of like, you know, Patrick, you said earlier, like, you know, of course, sales are down, or there's a fucking recession, or some shit. Like, I can't control that, but I can control what I do about that, how I respond to that, right?
And then, the other book I typically recommend people is The Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. It's a great intro to just mindfulness, and, you know, basically, metacognition, and learning to bring awareness to your thoughts and where your thoughts are going. Because, you know, like Megan, we know, like with ADHD, and things like perseveration, and rumination are really, really common because of that, like, struggle with impulsivity. So, learning to bring awareness to that is a great first step to working to, like, slowly break that habit.
So, these two books I recommend all the time. They're fantastic. They're super easy. They're very approachable. So, on the topic of, like, distress tolerance and, like learning to, you know, kind of reframe expectations and things, these are super helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: That's great, that's great. I'm actually working on a mindfulness workbook adaptive for neurodivergent minds, so I'm going to grab that second one. I actually have The Stoic book, but I'm going to grab the second one.
And yeah, I think it's interesting. I didn't really know where today's conversation was going to go, but I feel like, really what we've been exploring, like, meaning, values, but really the psychology of entrepreneurship, like in the same way, like people often talk in the parenting world of like, when you have a child it forces you to work through your shit. Ideally, there're some parents that don't. I think going into entrepreneurship forces you to deal with your shit because there's a lot of emotions that come up, there's a lot of, like, meaning, death, like all of these things. The more we work through our stuff, the better we can show up in our businesses.
So, I've enjoyed this kind of conversation of the psychology of entrepreneurship that we've had. I'm looking at the time and I see we've been talking for a while. Any wrap up thoughts before or would you…
COREY WILKS: I'm good, this is fucking awesome. Like, I'm down, you know, to come back on anytime. I thought this was awesome. I hope, you know, viewers/listeners found it helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I'll shoot you a message on LinkedIn too to ask you to come on my other podcast, which is strictly entrepreneurial-based. So, I'd love to have you on there too, and talk about that over there and down.
COREY WILKS: [CROSSTALK 01:05:03].
PATRICK CASALE: Can you tell the audience, while we have you, where they can find you, so that they can subscribe, they can find what you're offering, all that stuff.
COREY WILKS: Yeah, so my doctorate is a PsyD. So, I am Corey Wilks PsyD all over the internet. C-O-R-E-Y W-I-L-K-S P-S-Y-D, Corey Wilks PsyD. I am most active on Twitter/X, whatever you want to call it, and LinkedIn. But coreywilks.com. Also, on YouTube, you just type in Corey Wilks PsyD and you will find me.
PATRICK CASALE: Thank you for that. And we will have all that information in the show notes, so that you have easy access to all of Corey's information. You can follow, you can like, download, subscribe, coaching, etc.
Thanks for coming on today. Awesome conversation. Really great way to start this neurodivergent entrepreneurial series out and thank you for your time.
COREY WILKS: Thanks for inviting me, man. Y'all take it easy.
PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.
