Episode 65: Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs (#1): An Introduction
Aug 01, 2024
Show Notes
Entrepreneurship can be an attractive alternative for neurodivergent individuals to the traditional 9–5 jobs that cater to a society that is systemically structured to be more accommodating to neurotypical needs. However, being a neurodivergent entrepreneur comes with its own set of challenges and triumphs, from managing executive functioning to dealing with burnout.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, introduce their new series on neurodivergent entrepreneurship, as well as share their personal journeys and provide valuable insights.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Get tips on balancing the needs of different neurotypes in business, including ADHD’s need for creativity and excitement with the Autistic desire for structure to avoid burnout, as well as how to set boundaries that protect your mental health and values.
- Hear candid discussions on running a values-driven business, the moral injuries that can arise, and sustainable strategies for maintaining integrity while pursuing entrepreneurship.
- Discover the importance of failure as a data point and how adopting a value-aligned mindset can transform your entrepreneurial endeavors, especially when it comes to the continuous reevaluation of business decisions.
If you choose to pursue entrepreneurship, remember to prioritize your well-being, stay true to your values, and embrace growth through failure.
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Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Megan and I are excited to kick off a new series where we are going to talk about neurodivergent entrepreneurs, our own journeys. We're going to have some interviews with some really cool people, and help share their stories, and learn a little bit about their processes, their struggles, some of the things that they've experienced along the way.
And this is a series that I'm really excited about because I know the clinical side really excites you, Megan. And the business side and the creativity side really excites me. And I love talking about entrepreneurial struggles and challenges. But I also want to highlight from a strengths-based perspective, like, all of the cool shit that we can accomplish as neurodivergent entrepreneurs, in general. And I don't know about you, but I never really expected myself to call myself a successful entrepreneur in any sense of the word. And especially, in grad school, like getting my master's, I just figured community mental health was the end of the road.
MEGAN NEFF: Same. Like, I don't even think I started using the word entrepreneur to describe myself until the last year. And I was like, "Oh, that is what I'm doing. I do own a business. Like, I'm an entrepreneur."
But same to you. Like, as a kid I definitely had fantasies. I always was fantasizing about starting a business but executive functioning stuff always held me back. And I just kept going to jobs where it's like, "You do this. Here's the rules." And so, this isn't necessarily what I saw for myself.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think I felt that way too. Like, I needed that regimented, structured, here's the expectation. But then, it's interesting. And I don't know about you, but for me, in those environments, especially, post-grad school the walls kind of felt like they started to close in a bit. And I started to really struggle, I think, with my executive functioning more and more, my sensory overload, the social struggles that I experienced in the workplace.
And then, just working, like, 50 to 60-hour work weeks in crisis environments, and being on call, and all sorts of hours into the night, interrupting sleep, low pay. I just was like constantly thinking something has to change here.
Like, I ended up in the hospital during a vacation because I was so burnt out that my immune system was so depleted. And that was like a lightbulb moment for me where I was like, "Yeah, I cannot do this anymore."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I haven't heard that story before.
PATRICK CASALE: It's a fun one. I went to Tulum, Mexico, with my wife back in like 2016. I was managing a community health mental health, like, walk-in crisis center. So, I was putting in probably 70 hours a week on a usually average basis. And it was 24/7. So, I could get phone calls at 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, "Hey, this nurse didn't show up. Hey, this thing happened, you need to come deal with it." Type of situation.
And I was just getting sick all the time, and worn down, burnt out, depleted, no support, in general. And we went to Mexico, my immune system was really weak. I must have eaten or drink something that was like, potentially, compromised bacterial wise, ended up in a small hospital room in Tulum, Mexico. My wife called my dad and told him that she thought she was going to be taking me home in an urn because the doctor kind of gave us the information of like, "This may not go the way you think it's going to go."
Then I was just laying there thinking, "I really need to change my life because the stress, the dread, the exhaustion, the constant immune compromisation. I cannot do this anymore to myself. If I get out of here, I'm going to promise myself that I'm going to pursue the things that scare me." Because I think when you have these near-death experiences life often gets put into perspective.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That would be interesting, I hear this story a lot. And I'm not sure if it's because it's a good compelling story. And entrepreneurs often lead with a good compelling story or if it's because there's actually something to this. But I hear a lot of entrepreneurs, especially, when it is like, "I started a business to massively changed my life." There is often like a near-death experience, or some sort of profound moment where our perspective changes, and are like, what is important to us becomes easier to see. And in that moment often big changes are made.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you're exactly right. I think, for me, I started, like, really deep diving existentially my values. And do I feel good about my career path? Do I feel proud of myself? Do I feel satisfied? And the answer was no. I mean, I enjoyed community mental health to a degree. But it was just not for me. It was never designed for my system.
And I've always valued freedom, and autonomy, and the ability to make my own decisions. And I think placing that above everything else was the apex of that when I started to realize like, you could pursue that, it's going to be challenging because you don't know anything about business ownership as so many mental health professionals do not. But the risk felt worth the reward to me. And, you know, there's also kind of the ADHD part that really liked the excitement, impulsivity, spontaneity of like, let's see what we can create.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that, let's see what we can create. I feel that, I feel that.
PATRICK CASALE: So, you were in academia. But now, your career has shifted drastically. And I know we've talked a lot on here because a lot of it was health-related from COVID. But do you ever think to yourself, like while you were in academia or even getting your doctorate, I would be here as an author, podcaster, speaker, course creator, membership host, Instagram personality, all the things?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, absolutely not. I mean, for one, and I think people, probably, I mean, maybe they know this about me if they listen to this, but like, I'm a pretty private person, like, I'm personal. Like, when we're talking and I share personal information about myself. But I'm pretty private, like a lot of autistic people. I don't like being perceived.
And so, if you were like, "I'm going to have a big social media account, and I'm going to be, like, doing all these things." I would be like, "What? No. Like, I want to go to a library. I want to research. I want to read. I want to write things."
So, yeah, if you had told me this is, like, five years ago if were like, "This is what your life will look like." I would have been like, "That makes zero sense."
So, no, this isn't, like, something I set out. I often say I'm like an accidental Instagram… I don't like term Instagram therapists, but like, I'm an accidental Instagram therapist. Like, I didn't set out to do that.
And then, I just kind of built a business, like people responded to the things I was putting out in the world. And I've just kind of built a business around that and like, in response to people's response. But absolutely, this is not what I expected at all.
PATRICK CASALE: No, hard same. It's interesting because what you're describing when you say I built something based on responses to responses that's like market research 101. But for us, you know, you going to your doctorate, me getting a master's, and like so many mental health professionals just, I never sat in a business class, I didn't know how to do any of this stuff. I just was creating things that I thought were engaging.
And you know where you talked about interest-based nervous systems a couple episodes ago, like really following that, and recognizing when am I feeling this, like, creativity flow over me? When am I feeling, like, this experience? And how do I deep dive into it and pursue that at all costs? And I would be, like, head down creating things all day, not even, like, thinking about time. By the end of the day, I'm like, "Oh, damn, I just created a program or a course or a retreat." And like, it just felt so invigorating in so many ways.
But looking back at like 2015 me, graduating with my masters, couldn't see the forest for the trees because I didn't know what the possibilities were. And I also didn't ever expect people to be drawn to my personality. Like, you, not wanting to be perceived, I have a fear that I haven't shared with you, as this podcast grows in popularity, you have to assume that if you're out in public, sometimes somebody's going to say like, "Oh, are you the person who co-hosts this podcast?" And that's a big fear of mine at this moment while we're talking about being perceived.
MEGAN NEFF: Like in live moments someone will perceive you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And what about that scares you? Or like, what would that be like to be noticed?
PATRICK CASALE: I'm always having the attention on me. You know, we both talked about how we don't love receiving compliments or positive feedback sometimes. And I just would rather flow under the radar and go unnoticed but continue to create things, and continue to figure out ways to make that work for my business.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I feel that. Like, there's definitely times where I'm like, I have a fantasy of can I take me out of it and just, like, go become an anonymous person who creates digital resources? Yeah, yeah, the being perceived. And then, I haven't had that happen yet where it crosses over, well, I also don't leave my house, that makes it easy. But where it crosses over to my real life, but I do think I would be awkward in that moment. I just know that and then I would feel awkward about being awkward in that moment, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Of course, it can, and it always happens after that, yeah. I was at a bar with a friend in Charlotte a couple years ago. And we had gone to watch a hockey game or basketball game, actually. And I remember seeing someone like staring at me out of my peripheral. And I was like, "Huh, that's weird." Finally, came over and like,
"Hey, are you Patrick? I'm in your Facebook group. And I listen to your podcast, and I was trying to match your tattoos with your pictures."
And I was just like, "This is a really unsettling." I also have no idea how to react to this. So, just thinking about that on bigger scale is sometimes horrifying.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Someone was writing about this, I was just reading something yesterday that I thought was such a helpful frame of like, and I think this is helpful for anyone who's building a business, it's kind of tied to your personality and your identity. When you do that, you become an object. And what happens to objects is people stuff gets projected onto us. Good and bad, and idealization, and also opposite of idealization.
And I mean, that comes with the territory, right? So, like, I'm not going to gripe about that. It comes with the territory. But that's psychologically hard to be an object of people's projections, both the good ones and the bad ones. Like, the good ones can feel nice, but it can also feel like, "Oh, this is a lot of pressure." And then the bad ones feel really, really bad.
PATRICK CASALE: You're so right. I think about that a lot in like conference settings, or summit settings, or retreat settings when people know a lot more about me than I know about them. They almost think that they know you. Like, that we're colleagues, or friends, or like, we have history together.
And I am, you know, as a lot of autistic people struggle with facial recognition, people will come up to me like smiling, making direct eye contact. I will assume they are looking behind me, so I'll always be like this. And they're just looking at me and I'm like, "Oh shit." And they'll be like, "Hey, I'm so and so I do whatever." Or, "I talk to you on Instagram." Or, "I've talked to you here." And I'm like, "Okay, hi, it's good to meet you." And then, let me try to get out of here as awkwardly and as uncomfortable as humanly possible.
So, it's just a fascinating look back. But I think, like, there are so many things that some of my neurodivergence brings to the table and from a strengths-based perspective that can really allow me to be creative, and super structured, and hyper-focused, and create a lot of the projects that I didn't even know existed a year ago, five years ago, three years ago.
And I know we talk about deficits a lot on here and struggles. So, I do want to just also highlight that because I think that has played a major role. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, if they really sat down and checked in with themselves would probably identify as neurodivergent.
MEGAN NEFF: So, back when we were floating this idea of starting a community for neurodivergent entrepreneurs I mentioned this, I'm in a community of community creators, and I was very meta. And I mentioned this as a possibility. And someone was like, "Well, that would include all entrepreneurs if you're certainly neurodivergent."
And I was like, "Huh." And I've been hearing that more and more. I wasn't sure if it's because I'm so locked into this little corner of the internet. But I've been hearing that more from people who are in the entrepreneur space of like, yeah, like so many of us are, specifically, ADHD. I hear less about autism, but a lot of ADHD entrepreneurs, which I'm like, "That just, you know, what makes sense." That divergent brain, that creativity, that I'm going to work for myself. I mean, the hands-on learning. Like, I didn't realize how much that would be helpful of, like, if you're someone who learns by doing and trying things then I think you have, like, there's a kind of capacity to be like, "Well, let me just, like, try this and let me see if I can learn it on my own." And that's a lot of what entrepreneurship is, is figuring things out, learning on your own, learning as you build.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a certain level of like, entrepreneurial resilience too because you have to have kind of tough skin sometimes when you're riding this, like roller coaster of like, I really love working for myself, but I kind of want to close it all down immediately because it's so overwhelming, which is a pretty constant, like, revolving door.
But I think as neurodivergent folks we've been through a lot, we've probably had to pivot, adapt of all, shift in all areas, basically, every day, all day. It kind of gives you the ability to do that with your business, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think the pivot is huge. Like, I know even in the three years that I've been kind of building Neurodivergent Insights I've pivoted a lot. And that does, I think ADHD is so interesting because like, I don't think, like, autism helps with pivoting. But I think ADHD really does help with pivoting of like, "Oh, new and shiny, let me pivot from doing this thing to doing this thing. Let me learn about, right, like new and interesting, let me learn about this new trend." And so, that's where I really do see ADHD being so helpful for entrepreneurship.
PATRICK CASALE: It's a really good point that you just mentioned. Like, I don't see autism as allowing for the pivot because I think that, you know, being locked in and committed to the structure, and the routine, and the consistency is super important.
So, we've talked about like, internal push/pull, autism ADHD a lot on this podcast as we're both ADHDers. And it is interesting how that informs my business and my decisions. And like, we've talked about that before, ADHD is super shiny, sensory, and stimulating, and exciting, and dopamine rush, and autism just being like, can we just stop and pump the brakes? And like, please have a couple of days of nothing to do?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, I'll ask you, I'll answer a quick question that I'll ask you. I'll give you a second to think about it. Like, I'd be curious to hear how you feel like you've built a model that kind of, like, is both structure and allows for new. So, I'll share mine and give you a minute to think about that.
So, and I didn't even realize at the moment this is what I was doing. But looking back, I'm like, "That's why it worked."
So, the very first thing I did, and this is when I was trying to transition from like, because when I first started Neurodivergent Insights I was seeing, I think, up to 30 clients, which is for people who do know, people who do clinical work 30 is quite a bit just because it's 30 hours, and then notes, and all the things. And I was spending a lot of time at Neurodivergent Insights. So, it's like I need to figure out… And people kept asking me like, "You have a large account, you're not monetizing."
And I was like, at first it was like this weird pressure like, "Well, why should I monetize?" And then I was like, "Okay, I'm spending like 30 hours on this, I should figure out how to make some income."
So, the very first thing I did was a Patreon membership, which I've now closed. And it was so ridiculous. But I was like, "Join this membership and you'll get a workbook a month." Which of course, the workbooks, like we've talked about, they kept growing and growing to where that became a really ridiculous project.
But I'm realizing that having a structure, I'm going to do a workbook a month. That was my structured routine. My autistic self loved that. Having it be a membership created the urgency my ADHD needed, where it's like, people have paid for this, I need to get this out at the end of every month.
But then I got to explore a new topic of interest every month. My ADHD loved that, like the creativity, the new, the shiny, the curiosity. But I had a structure, like doing it in the structure of a workbook that I knew, I knew what to expect, I wasn't trying to learn new technology. And so, that combination of, like, structured, I'm doing the same thing every month, I think I did that for like 18 months. I no longer make a workbook a month [INDISCERNIBLE 00:20:44]. But then pair it with I get to explore new topic within a structure, that worked so well for me, I'm realizing. And now I'm trying to replicate that like with courses of, okay, I'll come up with one structure that I do every time but it'll be a new topic every time. So, I'm realizing the more I can build in structure, but new ideas that works really well for me.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. And I think for so long because I think I've been entrepreneurial most of my life, like I can think about things where I was always trying to start businesses as a kid and I really enjoyed, like, the risk-reward factor, and the impulsivity portion of it, how ADHD dominant my business journey has been up until maybe, like, a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, where I've realized autistic burnout is something I deal with a lot. I tend to push myself into autistic burnout more than I would like to. So, I've really had to, like, step back and zoom out to say, yes, we need to foster the necessity, the need for the creativity, for the new, for the exciting, for my ADHD parts, absolutely need that. Otherwise, depression and burnout seem to coincide over there.
But I also need to build in balance, and I need to build in space, and I need to build it in, like, darkness, on my calendar, and in my life. And so, even the example of like the retreats that I'm doing, this year was chaos. I was like completely ADHD taking the wheel there, doing six events in six months, way too much peopling, way too much traveling, way too much energy.
Next year, I've committed to only doing events in odd-numbered months, and giving myself about a month and a half to two months in between to rest, and recharge, and have structure, and create some vacancy in my calendar without, like, overreaching, over agreeing. I'm trying really hard to mitigate the people-pleasing aspect of that personality too, of like, wanting to say yes to more opportunities. So, that's one way for sure.
And I've tried really hard, like you said, when I started All Things Private Practice back in 2020, I was still seeing about 30 clients a week. And yeah, like, it's a lot. And I remember during that time, it was like the onset of COVID. We're in our houses, I'm like, "I could see 40 clients a week, I'm not doing anything"
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my God. No, you can't.
PATRICK CASALE: Of course, I couldn't. I was like, "This is madness. Like, I can't do this." And that's when I think all that stillness and being in my house despite really disliking that most of the time forced me into this creative process where I was like, "I'm really good at, like, helping other people take their big ideas, piece them apart, put structure to them, implement steps and strategies without it feeling overwhelming." That's when everything started to launch. And I started to really feel creative in that sense.
And since that time, trying really hard to balance both, I don't think I do as good of a job of it as you do. You have really good boundaries about your social media, your newsletter responses. Like, I think that I would strive for that, to some degree. But it's still definitely a work in progress. And you know, major medical stuff that we've both experienced has [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:21]-
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, and, oh, sorry.
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: I could say, like, I came by those boundaries, honestly, in the sense of and I talked about this early on, I honestly think I'm still recovering. And I feel kind of weird using this term but I'll explain it.
So, there's this term moral injury that I really appreciate. It's basically when we're put in situations where, like, there is injury to our kind of sense of morality, or values, or like, because we're going against kind of what we morally, like our moral compass. So, there's been a lot of research in this in pets. And then, during the pandemic, there's so much moral injury happening to doctors.
And moral injury happens to therapists a lot, too. Or maybe not a lot, but maybe more like vicarious trauma. But I, in my first year and a half of doing this, and again, I wasn't setting out to do a business. I was setting out of like, I see a pattern here, I see how many undiagnosed autistic people there are. And I want to right a wrong.
And I might get emotional talking about this, my inbox was filled with trauma narratives. And with people saying, "Please help, please be my therapist, please help me find a therapist, you're the only person who I have seen who's like a psychologist who's talking about this, you get this." And this was a couple years ago, there's a lot more people in this space now.
So, I was absorbing so much of people's stories, and I didn't have places to refer people to. Again, now I have more of like, "Okay, go check out these places." But especially, when I was getting started, it was like, "I'm sorry, I can't take you on." Or, "I can't help you find a therapist in your state. And I don't know who to refer you to."
So, there was so much saturation of that and I was always holding that. And then, I was also holding, like, back to being an object and people's projected stuff. I was also, like, getting a couple death threats and getting, like, terrible things about, like, "You're ableist and you're that." So, I'm like both holding trauma and holding people's anger about not doing enough. And like, that was so, so hard that those digital boundaries, I was like I either need to shut this down, or create really, really strong boundaries around who gets access to my mind, and whose stories are coming in.
And even in my community, like I'm very clear, like, we do not share trauma narratives in here. Like, this is not a place for… Like, if you're in crisis you don't share that here. And that's to protect everyone in that community. And because trauma narratives should be shared in therapy one on one.
So, yeah, I came by those boundaries very honestly. And I'm honestly still recovering from that first year and a half, two years of just being so overwhelmed by the pain that I was, like, hearing and absorbing.
PATRICK CASALE: Thank you for sharing that because that's heavy, and that's heavy for someone to hold. And I'm sure that felt really polarizing at times too. Like, I don't know what to do with all of this.
MEGAN NEFF: It's hard because, like, I'd want to help. And sometimes I'd take 45 minutes to be like, "Here's some people in your state." But then, like, it grew to grumpiness because it might seem like a small request, but when you have 10 of those a day, and they all take 45 minutes, and then, there's this helplessness of like, "I'm hearing your story and I can't help you."
And then, the temptation. And I would call this projection, the temptation is to get grumpy at the person for asking because, actually, I'm grumpy at myself for not being able to help because then it's like, "Well, I'm grumping at you for making me feel helpless." Which that's classic projection, right, of… So, I've had a heel like that grumpiness, which, again, I know is projection. But part of that is healing that is having, like, pretty grounded boundaries, digital boundaries.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think a lot of people listening are going to relate to that either desire or that need to have really almost ironclad digital boundaries. I get some of that to an extent not even close to what you've received. But I would get grumpy when people would DM me and asked me like, basic questions about starting a business, basic questions about resources, basic questions about, like, who I could connect them to. I find myself getting so frustrated by saying the same thing over and over and over again.
And then, I'm frustrated at myself for responding to everything, then I'm frustrated at, like, not having better boundaries. So, it's exhausting. And I could tell, like, those of you listening, it is a lot because I think we do want to help so much. But then, there's this realization of like, what can I actually do sometimes. Like, how much can I help? How much of myself can I give away? So, it's a nice check and balance, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, that's where the moral injury part comes in. Like, if we didn't care, if we didn't want to help, like, it wouldn't be hard. But it's when you're getting an influx of requests, and you want to help, these are your people.
And for me, at the time this was happening, also, again, I was doing clinical work, I was in a really hard parenting season. And then, I was receiving, like, so much stuff in my inbox, in my DMs. So, it was like I was everywhere in my life, my parenting, my own identity, my clinical work, and then, receiving all these, like it was too much, it was just too much.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, fantastic that you were able to kind of step out of that, though. Because I think that is what can take a lot of people down a really dark path.
MEGAN NEFF: But I see a lot of autistic, this is slightly different than entrepreneurs, but a lot of autistic, like, either content creators or nonprofit, people who run nonprofits, like a lot of them are quitting and burning out. And I 1000% understand why.
PATRICK CASALE: We're going to say, you know, we talked a lot about how ADHD entrepreneurs are creative, and outside-the-box thinkers, and all the ideas, autistic entrepreneurs, content creators, et cetera, there's a strong value there where autistic folks are so values-driven, so authentic, that you tend to draw people in based on how you're showing up and talking about some of the things that you're talking about, which has a propensity to also lead to burnout because you can really attract a lot of energy, and attention, and focus, and response based on just showing up as you.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that is, like, I don't think I can, like this term came in my mind, but I think it's a term that's existed in the world, identity-based business. Like, that's the term I started using around this time where I was thinking about moral injury and all of these things, and also, for therapists. Like, being an identity-based therapist. And this is true for LGBTQ therapists, black and brown therapists. Like, you're often drawing your people and things heat up more when, like, it's values-driven, it's identity-driven. And then, the people you're working with their trauma is overlapping with your trauma. Yeah, that's a whole…
Like, sometimes I wish on days where it's hard I'm like, "I just wish I owned a business I didn't care about." I mean, I know I wouldn't be able to because I'm not wired that way. But like, it'd be so easy if I had this business that I was emotionally detached from, not emotionally detached from but like, I don't know how to say this. Yeah, well, it wasn't so personal.
PATRICK CASALE: I totally get that. I think about that all the time. But like you said, not being wired that way makes it complicated. But I wish I had a business where I was like, yeah, just do something kind of mindless. I do it on repeat. I don't think much about it. I don't even get to see, like, the customer-facing side or the audience-facing side. And you can be behind the scenes. Like, I think about that all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, my dream, I don't know why, but sometimes there's a few like Etsy creators who create mental health digital products that are really pretty simple, and they like, have sold a ton of stuff. I'm like, I just want to be like an Etsy shop owner of really simple like, here's a CBT worksheet, here's a sleep worksheet. I don't know if I'd actually be doing CBT worksheets, but maybe some of the good stuff from CBT. Like, and totally just, like, anonymous, I create digital worksheets. That's my fantasy of like, if the identity values moral injury stuff gets too hot, you'll find me in like, using a pseudo name on Etsy.
PATRICK CASALE: Love it. We actually have someone coming on in a couple of weeks who has an Etsy shop for therapists and does a lot of that stuff, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Wow. Well, maybe I could pick their brain and…
PATRICK CASALE: Because I totally get it. I think when you're deeply invested and it's values-driven, it feels like a lot more energy goes into what you're creating, how you're showing up. But it also feels, at least for me, I don't want to speak for you, it feels like I can sometimes, like shame myself if I retreat, or step away, or I'm not as involved or is invested. And I think, again, like one of those things where it's like, that's just not how I'm wired to be able to do them, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Like the feedback, the feedback feels so much more personal. Like, I got an email the other day about, like, and it's a good suggestion of like adding dates to my blog posts so people can know like how current it is. I'm like, "That's a great idea." And it's an accessibility thing.
And so, I looked into it, and I remembered I have looked into this in the past and like Squarespace for whatever reason makes it so hard to do that, you have to inject code. And after like 30 minutes of this I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to be able to figure this out today."
And I've mentioned this… because I was feeling pretty burnt out yesterday, I mentioned this to my spouse who used to run a tech department for a school district. And he was like, "Yeah, I'd get like 50 emails like that a day." Like, "Hey, you should fix this thing." And his response was like, "Yep, that's a good idea." And like, he'd add it to the list. But in his mind, he'd be like, "I also know, there's so many more important things to address in this."
But for me, I don't, again, maybe because I don't have an important space system. But every time I get a suggestion like that, especially, if it's related to accessibility, I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, I need to be doing this." And then, I'm often working with platforms that don't support it. And it feels like a personal failure. And I'm like, "How do I tap into, like, my spouse's brain? Of like, yes, that's a great idea." There's also 50 other things that need my attention and are perhaps more important. I'm not able to do that. So, then every recommendation that comes in, it's like, "Oh, I'm failing."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, everything feels like a 10 out of 10. Hard to, like, step back and recategorize or reprioritize when you're operating from a values-based business mentality, good for Luke, by the way. I feel like if we ask Jennifer, the person we had on for Ask an Allistic/Neurotypical, she would also say she does that, and I'd be like, shaking my fist at her.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I feel like that sounds so nice. And well, it's also like, you know, Luke was running a tech department. It wasn't his.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But I mean, there probably would be some sense of ownership of it. But it's the, like, taking it personal. That's the part where, like, I wish I was able to see Neurodivergent Insights as a business and less of an extension of me. And I'm working on that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard to unwrap yourself from that, though, especially, when, like you said, when something's been created based on you showing up, and you putting yourself out there, and you being vulnerable, and you sharing parts of yourself, the business then becomes murky. And it's hard to step away from. Like, people ask me all the time, "How come you don't just hire other people to run these events, and retreats, and summits, and whatever?"
And I'm like, "Yeah, that'd be great. But like, people are not signing up to come see so and so. People are not coming up and spending all this money to spend five days with someone they don't know. They think they know me, they want to spend five days with me in whichever destination." Which if you know me, I'm not that good of a time. Like, five days around me feels like a lot. But, I mean, I get that. So, it's like, how do we work though that in a way that we can create boundaries for ourselves and support our systems in terms of preventing burnout?
MEGAN NEFF: So, this topic just came up in the creator community I'm a part of. And I don't like the term, the term is key man risk. I would rephrase it to, like, key person or key human risk. But the idea of any business, how do you reduce key human risk? Which is when the business depends so much on you as the person. And part of it is like, you know, should something happen to you or should something happen to me, like, is this a business that can carry on beyond that?
That's something I'm definitely trying to think about with my community, particularly, because the community is so much more than about me, it's about the connections happening in there. But like, there's business decisions that go into how do I reduce key human risk in the sense of how much is it that people are coming to this because of the person, Patrick, or the person, Megan Anna versus, like other experiences they're getting from it.
So, that, for me, is I think about like the next five years and continuing to try to, like, reduce my risk of just burning out. I'm trying to think through how do I make it more about the experience of neurodivergent wellness, connecting with other neurodivergent people, and less about me as the person at the center. Also, just with the whole, like, being perceived that feels a lot more comfortable to me. But there's definitely like a business strategy to that, that is not intuitive to me. But yeah, that's something I've been thinking about.
PATRICK CASALE: It's a good point. I think about that, too, maybe in a different capacity and it's probably important that I put some action to this. But like, my group practice, if something was to happen to me, I need to have a professional will in place, I don't feel like that needs to happen.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: There're needs to be… Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: We should probably double it. I have a template for an entrepreneur will that I got and it's been on my to-do list for 15 months to fill it out. We should, like, body double into our business wills.
PATRICK CASALE: Let's do it. I know it sounds morbid to say-
MEGAN NEFF: How do we always talk about death.
PATRICK CASALE: It's just the reality, right? Like, we have to, I think, so many people shy away from some of that stuff, too. And I don't want to deep dive this right now. But, yes, let's definitely do that. Because I travel so much. If something happens, you know, God forbid, plane situation, whatever, like, I need to have a plan in place for who takes over, who has access, who does whatever. So, yeah, let's make that happen behind the scenes.
When we started talking about entrepreneurialship, I mentioned to you or you mentioned to me, I cannot remember how we do things differently. I want to touch up on that a little bit. Like, I think in one of our episodes, we were talking about how, like certain marketing strategies, we both kind of made a face like, "No, I would never do that. Like, no." Yeah, they tell you to do A, B, and C, and I'm never going to do any of those things. So, what comes to mind when I said that?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, gosh, so much. I mean, like anything that just feels too salesy, or like, I know a big thing in the industry is like, "Start with someone's pain point, and then, tell them the transformation journey."
First of all, that makes me so nervous to be like, buy this book or buy this course, and you will get X. Like, I can't guarantee that. And I don't know if that's maybe literal in my communication. But like, that terrifies me. I don't think I'll ever tell someone, like, you will get this thing if you buy this thing from me. Because then I'm like, in my mind, I have contracted with them that, like, you will not be burnt out if you, you know, do this burnout course.
There's so many social, other, like, factors I don't control. So, again, I don't know if that's like me being really literal with my speech. But that's one that I do not care for. Like, that's a common business tactic.
Urgency is another one that like, I just don't think that's ADHD-friendly. And like, I think I shared in that last podcast, I did that once and it felt gross. I just think the way things are talked about, I see a lot of, like, ChatGPT obviously written sales emails, and I'm like, "First of all, it's so obviously ChatGPT. Definitely, it's so…" Yeah. And yeah, I don't know, those are some things that come into my mind. What about you?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I definitely agree with the first one that you said, that grosses me out. So, I'm even thinking as you're talking, right, like, I'm doing this neurodivergent burnout retreat, I had to be very poignant with my sales page copy because I don't want to say, "Come to Belize for four days, and all of a sudden your neurodivergent burnout is going to be gone." Because that's not the reality.
MEGAN NEFF: You would be a magician if you could solve people's burnout in four days.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I'll increase the prices to 100,000 a person then. I'm like, I can't say that because I cannot stand behind that. So, that's big for me. It's like, I can't put something out there that I cannot stand 100% behind because I always think about how it's a representation of me.
And that goes for, like, collaborations, sponsorships, people who just DM probably both of us and are like, "Hey, promote my thing for X amount of money because you have an audience." And I'm like, "No, I don't want to do that." So, that's stuff I don't do unless I have a relationship. And I really value authentic relationships. So, I think that's a part of it, for sure.
Yeah, the marketing, like, constant barrage of like emails, and posts, and stuff drives me insane. And it makes me feel gross. Like, I hate marketing my stuff. I hate having to post it in groups. Like, I hate having to say like, "Here's an opportunity." I would much rather be like, "Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you're interested, here you go."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, talk about what you're doing. Don't sell to people. And that's what I try to do. And that I told you about this because we actually, like, had a point around this where like, I stopped doing summits because when you agree to do a summit, you're typically agreeing to like four or five sales emails. I don't do, like, straight-up sales emails. And when I was doing that for the summit, it felt so gross, and so painful. I guess it's because I did a summit with you, which was a great summit, but I remember you were so kind. You were like, "Would you mind sending one sales email for this summit." And I was like [CROSSTALK 00:47:57]-
PATRICK CASALE: …going to ask you to do four. I'm the worst person to ask to be a part of your summit, by the way, if you're listening. Like, I'm not going to promote it. I [CROSSTALK 00:48:04]-
MEGAN NEFF: I've started telling people that. When they ask I'm like,
"If you want me, sure, but I'm not going to promote it." Or like, "I'll promote it as part of…" So, I really like the newsletter template I have now because it's blocked. So, like, I have a block for like upcoming speaking events. And so, it's like I put it in there. I feel like people can either read that or not.
Same thing with my workbooks. Instead of, like, sending out a sales email, like check out this new workbook, it's just part of the block on my newsletter of like, "Hey, this new product was released. It's on sale this week if you want it." But I want to have like a kind of, what's the word? Casual… There's more fancy word for it. It's [INDISCERNIBLE 00:48:46], nonchalant. I want to have like a nonchalant, like, it's here if you want it.
PATRICK CASALE:Yep, no pressure. I like that. And I was just a part of a summit and I knew I shouldn't have done it. And I knew that was exactly what was going to happen. And they just kept sending like, "Here are the graphics, here's the swipe file, here's the email. You haven't promoted yet. You can make X amount of money in affiliate income."
I'm like, "I clearly don't care. Like, I don't have any desire." I shouldn't have said yes. But going forward, what I am going to say is, "Yeah, I'll be a part of it, but I'm not going to do A, B, and C. And if that's okay, great." Because I don't care about making the $33 per sign-up for this thing. Like, I just don't want to do that.
MEGAN NEFF: I have yet to have a summit be like, yes, we want you without your audience. Like, people want my… It's gross. Like, people want my email list or my audience. And so, if I'm like, "If you want a neurodivergent like psychologists there, I'll be there, but I'm not promoting it." They're like, "No, thanks."
PATRICK CASALE: That is true. I mean, and that's something that feels gross, you know? Like, people will start coming to you when you develop an audience to get in front of your audience. And again, if I don't have a relationship built, or I don't trust your business, or I just don't connect with you as a human, the odds of me saying yes to that are very slim.
I'll be very honest, if some of the bigger-named mental health companies approached either of us about promoting their products on the show I would say no. Like, there would not be a thought, if the one that starts with a B, and an H came to us was like, "I'll give you $300,000 to tell people [CROSSTALK 00:50:25]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that'd be a hard deal for both of us.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:50:26] like, not going to do it. And I think that is an interesting dynamic as a business owner to be like, I don't want to make that money because I don't like the way it's going to be made.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I want to say this for other, like, content creators or entrepreneurs, I've definitely learned this through making mistakes, and then sitting with it, and realizing that didn't feel good.
So, for example, there was a supplement company that reached out to me that, first I tried it, and I did like their product. But I partnered with them and like, had their logo on some of my ADHD stuff because they were marketing themselves as an alternative to stimulants. That ended up feeling really gross to me, especially, as a psychologist, like marketing a supplement. That's not my lane. I'm not a prescriber. I don't think I should be speaking about supplements. But it took me doing that. And that was kind of earlier in my process to realize that didn't sit well with me. And that certainly wasn't worth the money.
So, I just want people to give themselves grace, if they've really done some partnerships, especially, if it's like, yeah, you are pouring in 30 hours, and you're like, "I need to find some way to make money." Like, you've perhaps, people have perhaps partnered with companies that they then realize, like, that's actually not a great company to be partnering with. I think we learn a lot of this in the process.
So, I've definitely made choices that now looking back, I'm like, "Yep, I would not have done that." That's also how I learned how important it is to me to only bring companies I really believe in in front of my audience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I couldn't say it better. And I'll so-sign that 100%. I think as we're growing, and we're, I mean, it's also a privileged position to say I would turn down X amount of money from a company because the values don't align. Because some people might get approached for that, and absolutely need to take that money because circumstances are very different behind the scenes.
But I think this goes back to, like you were saying, values-driven business. So, if you partnered with a company in the past that you just don't agree with anymore, or you felt like it was a bad fit, I think we would both come out publicly and take accountability for that and say, like, yeah, I've done this in the past, and I wouldn't recommend it again.
All right, you know, I've had to do that with like, electronic medical record systems that have sponsored me in the last couple of years where at the end of the day I was like, "I don't really think that was a great, like, resource for my community." And I feel like a lot of people just used to sign up. So, I've had to make posts to be like, "You know what, I did let this sponsorship affect my marketing and that doesn't feel good for me."
So, I think ownership, accountability, is really important. And transparency, another one of our shared values of just being really direct and transparent about how we show up in the world. I think that plays a role in all of this as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I love that you, like, have circled back and been like, actually, here's my feeling. And you've done a lot more with sponsorships because of your other podcast. And so, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, just know if you message us about sponsorship for this podcast we'll only consider it if, we're trying to get creative about that, too. And I think that's a hard thing because I do think we could create pitches and go after, like, bigger companies. But then I'm like, is it values aligned? And that is something that I think about a lot.
So, yeah, values-driven businesses. I think neurodivergent businesses feel very values-aligned and driven a lot of the time. I think they feel really authentic. I think that you attract and repel based on how you show up and what you put out into the world. And you're not going to be for everybody. Your style is not going to be for everybody. I think that's important to pay attention to too. I had to get over a lot of that early on.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm having a bit of an aha moment here because I think you and I have had conversations about values and how, like, partly, that's what keeps us engaged and keeps us showing up. And I think as I'm thinking about our conversation today, what we've been hitting on, what I've been hitting on is, so values, Dr. Steven Hayes talks about this, who's the founder of ACT. I really like how he says it, is we hurt where we care. So, the flip side of our values and like, our meaning, and the purpose, and the drive is that where we hurt is, typically, where there's some value that's either misaligned.
So, I also think when we're talking about things like moral injury and burnout for value-driven business owners, it hurts more. Like, the negative feedback, the constructive feedback, it hurts more because we hurt where we care. So, for building a value-aligned business, one that drives purpose, meaning, passion, but also, it means when things do go awry, like, it hurts more.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yep. Cannot say that better myself. You know, I always find these conversations fascinating because you and I had no idea what we're going to talk about today. And I feel that we're on a really interesting divergent pathway, just all over the place, which feels pretty standard for us. But I enjoy that because I don't want to come on here and just be like, "This is how you create a business. This is how you make money. This is how you survive in capitalism."
It's more like, how do you create something that really feels connected to your why? And how does it feel sustainable based on your interests, and your energy, and your capacity, and allow yourselves to pivot, and evolve, and shift. I cannot tell you how many times I've had a "good idea" that either I pursued immediately, thanks to ADHD, or forgot to pursue, probably thinks that ADHD. Nevertheless, that gives us a lot of good understanding of like, what to edit what to improve, what to change the next time because I used to beat the shit out of myself mentally, like, "Oh, I can never finish anything. Oh, I can never get started."
Instead, reframing it to just like, this was actually really good research for me to know what I would do differently next time or would not do differently next time. And that approach has really helped me in my entrepreneurial journey.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm so glad you said that because that, really, I do think like that growth mindset of what can I learn from this? What in this is an invitation to learn and grow? Like, you have to have that for entrepreneurship. Otherwise, I think every mishap, everything that, like, gets half done, which we probably have so many projects like that as ADHDers would just feel so defeating, that that growth mindset is so huge of there's an invitation to learn something in this, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, yeah. Failure feels like a data point for me. Like, I think what it used to be, I'm way too wrapped up in, like, perfectionism to let that go. And just the realization that sometimes we try to embark upon projects, or collaborations, or partnerships, or journeys, and it just doesn't go the way you think it's going to. And usually, it's for the best. And just to allow it to be what it is, to learn from it, to change your approach the next time, to see it with a fresh set of perspective, that's probably been one of my biggest learning lessons and just strengths along the way through the last couple of years of doing all this stuff.
MEGAN NEFF: I see failure as a data point, that needs to be, you know, for our nonexistent t-shirt collection that deserves to be on there.
PATRICK CASALE: One of our many entrepreneurial ideas is just living in a dock somewhere. I don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: You know, the barrier I finally ran into with that because we talked about actually moving forward with merchandise, I was like, "I don't want…" It took me so long to, like, figure out a way really clean system for customer service for Neurodivergent Insights. I was like, "I don't want more customer service." Like, because then we have to build it for our podcast. That was the thing that I was like, "I don't know if that's worth the…"
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:58:47].
MEGAN NEFF: But, yeah, maybe someday.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:58:49] the process that live and I know we're about to wrap up. But like, we've been talking about monetizing this podcast for the last year and a half. And I think there are so many ways to do it. But I think both of us probably circle back to like, do I have the energy and the capacity to put effort into one more thing?
MEGAN NEFF: Because one more thing, and this is what I learned from Slow Productivity, good book, especially, for content creator entrepreneurs, is that every new thing, what people often don't factor in is the overhead, the overhead of like, the logistics, the coordination of one more thing.
And so, yeah, last time we were talking about merchandise I was like, "Oh, the customer service." And like all of the processes around that. And I was like, "Unless we're selling like thousands and thousands of t-shirts, I don't think it's worth it."
PATRICK CASALE: And I think that's a really important piece, though, with not just collaboration, but just entrepreneurialship, in general, is to get the good idea out there, and then step back, and analyze it, and pick it apart a little bit. Not in a perfectionistic sense of like, it has to be perfect before it can be released. But in a reality sense of, do I have the energy, capacity, and desire to actually put this together? Because even when we talk about "passive income" which is something I despise in the entrepreneurial-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, there's no such thing as passive income.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 01:00:15] passive income. I mean, everything is going to take energy to get off the ground, and create, and keep running. So, I think it's just constant reevaluation and figuring out what makes sense for you in this season of life.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Yes, I make a lot, like most of my income comes through passive income. And I work, you know, 50, 70-hour work weeks, and I have a team that works. So, it's like, yeah, I think that's an illusion that's out there. And I mean, it is nice to have income where it's not, like, direct, you're getting paid X amount of money to be here for this hour. But yeah, I like that you're debunking that myth of passive income.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep. I'm glad you said that. And your income is truly never passive because you're going back and like revising things that you've already created, and improving, and editing all the time. So, I mean, I see you doing it with, like, your posts right now that you're repurposing. And I'm like, "Megan is working on this, again. Megan is involved in whatever is going on behind the scenes again."
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that's that autistic, like, I hate having things out there that I like now I'm like, "Oh, I would say that differently now. Or there's new research now." Like, if it itches me to know there's things with my name out there that I would do differently now, and I have a lot of things out there. So, like, yeah, the [CROSSTALK 01:01:42]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 01:01:43]-
MEGAN NEFF: …going back to.
PATRICK CASALE: But I think that's accountability, right? Like, you mentioned before, when I've circled back on things, that's you circling back on something and saying-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …that's accountability. That's like, I value this being portrayed in a way that feels accurate, or supportive, or affirming, or whatever. I'm going to shift and change. And I'm going to edit things that I've done in the past. So, I think that's an accountability step and measure.
Yeah, I'm excited for the rest of this series. We have some great guests coming on. A lot of mental health entrepreneurs, but those who are coming on are doing really cool creative things. And then, a ADHD coach, as well. So excited for the next couple of episodes, really enjoying doing these collections.
After this, we'll be doing an OCD collection, a sensory collection. So many of you have asked for romantic partnership collection. And we do need to do one. So, it's on the works.
MEGAN NEFF: I actually have several names too that people give me. I laughed because I'm like, "What does it say about us that we're like resistant?" I've actually noticed I'm like, I feel resistance to doing that series which…
PATRICK CASALE: Totally, same boat, same boat. We've talked about having our partners on here. And have been like, "Let's hold off on that."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, at some point we can dive into our resistance around that. I'm curious, I'm intrigued.
PATRICK CASALE: So am I. But lots to come, stay tuned. And thank you for listening to Divergent Conversations. Episodes are on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.
