Episode 28: RSD and Social Media: Exploring the Complex Relationship and Nurturing Mental Wellness Online
Dec 25, 2023
Show Notes:
If you struggle with rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD), navigating social media can be complicated.
Social media is both a place where many neurodivergent individuals are able to find connection and be seen, but it can also be a place where impulsivity and reactiveness can run rampant, both on the giving and receiving end of online conversations and posts.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, delve deep into the complex relationship between social media, rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD), setting boundaries, and mental well-being.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Understand how to address RSD burnout with social media, as well as the important role that boundary-setting plays in helping you show up online with reduced intensity of RSD.
- Hear about some ways that Autistic individuals may experience social media differently, and even more positively, than allistic people and neurotypicals.
- Learn some RSD-symptom-reducing strategies to check yourself and check in with others when you are struggling with fear of being misunderstood.
As you navigate the complexities of social media, remember to check in with yourself and establish your boundaries for the way you interact with others online and who you allow into your space. Don’t be afraid to unfollow someone or snooze posts from a friend. Make it your priority to protect your mental well-being and engage in a healthier way.
Resources plus Exclusive Coupon Code
- Dr. Neff's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria Workbook Bundle (Clinical Use): https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-clinical
- Dr. Neff's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria Workbook Bundle (Personal Use): https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-bundle
- Use Code: “DivergentConversationsListener” To get 20% off anything in the shop, including the RSD bundle.
- Dr. Neff's free blog posts on RSD: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/category/Rejection+Sensitive+Dysphoria
- The EFT attachment infinity loop can be downloaded here: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/couples-resources
🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube
A Thanks to Our Sponsor, Tula Consulting!
We would love to thank Tula Consulting for sponsoring this episode.
Workplace communication can be messy. Considering the lens of neurodiversity can be helpful for understanding this. Maybe you found yourself frustratedly typing "per my last email" in an office communication, perplexed about how a colleague or client doesn't seem to understand your very clearly written email.
Consider this. Visual information processing isn't everyone's strength. Perhaps a quick call could make a world of difference. Or how about including a video or voice message with your email? And this technology exists! Simple steps like these can make your work environment more accessible and bring out the best in everyone.
Tula Consulting is on a mission to help organizations build more neuro-inclusive products and work environments. Tula does this by bringing curious minds to solve curious problems. Find out more by visiting tulaneurodiversity.org.
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: All right. So, last week we talked about RSD from a very basic foundational level, and we asked for questions, and we got a ton. And we want to address the ones that we can today. So, Megan and I are going to sort through these, and we have some that we definitely want to do deeper dives on. We appreciate everyone submitting them. And it's definitely a really important topic. And I think one that we could have a lot of conversation around.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. Just side note, like, I'm really liking this Q&A format podcasts. We should do more of them. It gives us structure, which is actually kind of nice for a change.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think when we introduce, like, topics, and then we can always ask for questions for follow-up so that we have episode ideas and keep the audience engaged too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, structured chaos. Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes [INDISCERNIBLE 00:00:56] when we started this.
MEGAN NEFF: Should we start with some of the easier questions or dive into the hard ones?
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, Megan. Where's my brain out today? Everywhere.
MEGAN NEFF: I need a slow warm-up, my brain is still warming up. Let's start with some of the more concrete or easier-to-answer questions.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I'm looking at the questions that we have. Where would you like to start? I think maybe one is how to open social media, again, when scared of RSD hangover days.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I think this is a good question, because we spoke a lot about, like, entrepreneurial RSD. But this is more specifically for anyone who is just experiencing RSD and having to show up on social media.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, yeah. I think social media for probably anyone with RSD, if you're at all posting or commenting is going to be a really anxiety inducing experience open. I just watched like a one hour kind of training on this from Lionni Dawson. They are a autistic ADHD entrepreneur in Australia. And, first of all, just if you're an entrepreneur, you should check out their work because it's fantastic. But they had a one hour kind of training explicitly on kind of rejection, social media. And there was some other entrepreneur stuff, but there's a lot of stuff that could be applied.
So, like one of thing she said that I love was, I think there's a visual, like, a bird in nature. And she was like, "You know, if I'm walking through nature, like, a bird doesn't just yell at me like, 'You asshole.' But on social media, right? Like…" Or not a bird, okay, I'm totally mixing visuals. She's like a person or bird, I don't know, people in real life don't just yell at you you're an asshole. But that sort of interaction, like, does happen in social media spaces.
So, I think, one, just having this lens of the kinds of conversation that tend to happen in digital spaces when, you know, we're more removed from the humanity of the other, it does more easily take on kind of a toxic bend. So, I think just having that framework around our interaction with social media and digital spaces, in general, is really important.
And then there's kind of a criteria she walks through of like, who is this coming from? Right? Is this like, an asshole on the internet who's just trolling? Or is this a friend and you're like, you want to consider it? But actually having a system for like this feedback I'm getting is hard. Like, who is this coming from? And considering that.
So, I would just say, whatever your system is having some sort of process around how you engage social media, and contextualizing it, contextualizing these interactions that are happening, and then to figuring out like, is this how you want to be interacting socially with people?
I encourage people to do like a week break and see what their mental real estate is like. For some of us as neurodivergent people, like we form some of our deepest connections digitally. But I do think we need to pay attention to how we're doing that, what spaces feel generative, what spaces don't. I realize this is way more like bird's eye view than like what to actually do when you're opening the app. This is more kind of meta how to have a relationship with social media in a healthy way. But I think when you have RSD, you just have to be thinking about these things more intentionally.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that sounds like good advice. And I'm almost thinking about, like, taking a step back and like putting different responses from different people in different buckets. Like, waiting the responses more or less because you're right, if you're walking down the street, someone is probably not going to scream that at you. I mean, most likely. But when you can type whatever you want, and just put it out into the world without really any repercussions a lot of the time. It really does create this social dynamic where it's quite polarizing and society is quite torn in so many directions. So, the likelihood of being trolled or just having people disagree with you, or have to jump in just to say something because they want to say something that can certainly lead to a response, and a shutdown, and more anxiety, and overwhelm. So, I think if you're able to, like you said, step back, contextualize, take a look at who you want to be having conversation and relationship with.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like, some of my deepest formed connections are via the internet and social media, some of whom I've never met in person like [CROSSTALK 00:05:49]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like you and I wouldn't exist, this podcast wouldn't exist without social media. Like, I think I literally met you, I saw your podcasts with Joel. And I think it was in a Facebook group, and then we connected on Instagram. Like you and I would not know each other, this would not exist without social media, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: No, and I consider you one of my closest friends that is in my circle of people right now. But I wonder if we could ever get into, like, the existentialism and the layers that come with having to create like more of a callous skin or approach to social media. But I also acknowledge that social media plays a major factor in my business, so I know that I have to like sift through and experience some rejection at times too. And I've learned to deal with that before the common human, who's not a therapist, who's not entrepreneurial, who's not on social media for business, but is just on there for connection, it can feel like there is an inability to create community if it feels like there's just constantly rejection every time you open up Facebook, or Instagram, or whatever platform you like to be on.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, I'm going to give a few more anchoring concepts. There's this idea from social psychology called upward comparison. This sounds really twisted. Every time I say it, I can't say it with a straight face. But what the research shows is we tend to do best when we do more downward comparison than upward comparison. This is why like, it sounds so like cringy of like, intentionally compare yourself to people who are doing less well than you. I don't love that as a like intervention strategy or practice. But I do think it's important to be aware of how much of your energy is spent in upward comparison. And social media is built for a lot of upward comparison, right? If people are posting like the highlights of their life, and you're comparing the, like, mundane moments to that, like we could talk about like how many likes, how many comments, but even just the experience, as in other people's highlights, and then filling in… Like your mind fills in the stories, that can also create or trigger RSD of just like, "Look at what all these other people are doing and are able to do."
So, I think being aware of social comparison and upward comparison when engaging with social media is really important. The other thing, you know, boundaries, I think, become really important. What are your boundaries? Getting clear around that. When you post things, do you have comments on? Do you not? Do you get into hard conversations in social media spaces? Or do you not? Do you say, "Hey, this would be better in an email or this would be better in a phone call." So figuring out what your boundaries are.
And then the third thing, impulsivity, right? A lot of us have impulsivity. Like, there's like a breathalyzer for phones where, like, some people will do… Have you heard of this where like, you have to breathe into your phone to be not drunk to-
PATRICK CASALE: Like, there's [INDISCERNIBLE 00:09:02] you know, impulsively send drunk text messages and things that get them into trouble the next day. So, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like we need like a filter like that for like impulsivity, of like, how am I going to feel about this comment in 30 minutes tomorrow, especially if we're in a heated dialogue or if there's a lot going on socio-politically? Just knowing that we're more likely to have those impulsive comments come out, and then to consider your future self, which again, is going to take, I think, intentional practice for us because it's not something a lot of us do naturally of like, how am I going to feel about this comment tomorrow? How am I going to feel about people's feedback to this if I'm putting something out there that is, you know, one of those like hot ideas.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm glad you named that because I actually found myself in that situation within my Facebook group last week, and I'm not going to go into the dynamics because the issues at play are just polarizing on all sides, and there's trauma and damage being done all around worldwide. So, I'm just alluding to something without alluding to it. And I had to step back and pause my Facebook group for two and a half days because I was mentally unwell. And I was struggling to keep up with comments, and like moderate, ensure that everyone was talking to each other respectfully as adults and as therapists, which doesn't seem like something I should have to do. But I also then realized I'm like, "Okay, this group is a purpose for like, how do we help each other through entrepreneurial journeys, and it's turning into something that I don't want it to be. How do we address all things? Right? And also, how do we show up authentically? How do we stand by our values?" So, I decided I will turn comments on limited comments. So, someone can only respond every five minutes, right? Including myself, which means that you have to take [CROSSTALK 00:10:53]-
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. Yeah, you have to…Yes, yes. Yeah, because that like posting in a reactive space, that's where a lot of these things kind of pile on. And so I love that, like a forced kind of nervous system break between posts. I didn't know that was possible, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, I turned on the limited comments, right? So, someone can only comment every five minutes. This allows me as the host, and the moderator, and the human to step back and breathe. This allows whoever is feeling really charged up to step back and breathe. And I think we can implement, like you said, these boundaries that allow for us to take that step back, to take that breath, to not respond impulsively. And also, not to react impulsively because that's what's happening in this world where we have information at the tip of our fingertips, and we can just respond to anything and any everything all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. And then when we do that, and we have RSD, like, and we look back, and we're like, because I've definitely had that experience of like I'm in my reaction, and I am being impulsive. And afterwards, I'm like, "Oh, shit." And I replay the dialogue over and over and over. And, like, I don't feel like myself in those moments. And those moments become like kind of raw spots of shame. And so it's not just protecting kind of others from our spewing reactivity, but it's also protecting ourself of like how we're going to hold that memory and that whatever feelings or shame we have about how we acted in that moment. So, it's also protective of our future selves.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. And I think there are other things you can do too to create these boundaries. Like, you can hit the unfollow button on groups or on people that are not creating that feeling of safety, or energy, or connection. You can snooze people for 30 days. One of my favorite things to do is hit the snooze button. I have snoozed so many damn people that I did forget to unsnooze-
MEGAN NEFF: I didn't know that was a thing. Okay-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:13:03] and then also they come back up, I'm like, "Oh shit, I need to snooze them again."
MEGAN NEFF: I just came up with an exercise. We should have everyone listen to this do this and you, and I should do it. Like, to log into a social media account very intentionally with a very specific lens, like a emotion nervous system lens, and to scroll but the thing you're paying attention to is what happens to you like when you see that content right? Is there activation? Is there anger? Is there like, "Oh I feel connected, and understood, and known." And yeah, to potentially like unfollow based on, I mean, that might sound harsh, but yeah, just based on like paying attention to what is your body telling you as you look at this content, and then is that someone you want to follow?
I know on Facebook it feels a little bit more personal. Like, oh my goodness, this person unfollowed me or we're not friends anymore. So, I know that gets a little… But that's maybe where the snooze button's helpful.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, the beauty of unfollow/snooze is not unfriend. There's a differentiation here, right? So, like, hitting unfollow means they'll never see your stuff again. But we're still friends. Like, they don't know that-
MEGAN NEFF: I don't know Facebook very well anymore.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I spend too much time on Facebook, sadly. And that's where like the bulk of my work and audience comes from. And then there's the snooze button where it's like, I don't want to see these groups, or these messages, or these people for 30 days, and sometimes just simply hitting that button. And that would be the mute button on Instagram where you can mute and hide stories and posts from people too, but you don't unfollow them. And this allows for you to maintain the relationship, but just because you have a social media relationship does not mean that it's healthy for you to see their content, see their messages, see their posts every day. And if it's causing you harm, especially, if you're doing the exercise that Megan just suggested, it's a great opportunity to give yourself that detox experience or that ability to step away cleanly without hurting anyone's feelings, without like disconnecting from someone that you may have to have interaction with. So, I think it's important to always prioritize your energy first, because this stuff can really get on top of you and it can be quite depleting, and honestly, traumatizing.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. The other thing, I'm thinking way more basic here, but things like something I see come up a lot is like when you post something, and there's no comments or likes, like there's not feedback. And that's an RSD trigger, also. Like if you say an idea in a meeting, and it just like drops, and no one comes back to it. I would think having some self-affirmations, maybe we can make like self-affirmations for social media, that'd be cool content. But things like having some mantras of like, you know, how many likes I get on this post, like, doesn't represent how many people in my life care about me, or doesn't represent my worth, or my value.
And so if those are the things that trigger you, I would actually work on developing or finding some self-affirmations that you could have, and have them on hand so that they can be front and center when the RSD story wants to take over your brain, you can kind of bring those back to mind.
The thing with mantras and positive mantras that I always say, especially, for neurodivergent people, we have to believe them. If we don't believe them, they're probably going to make us feel worse. And sometimes it's hard for us to find mantras that we actually believe.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I like that idea. I also love the idea, this may sound basic and simple. But I heart every single one of my posts that I make on Facebook and Instagram, and it just allows me to feel like, okay, I made this post, I made this content, I feel proud about it, so I like it. And like I've had other people start to mention like, "I've started liking my own posts, and it makes me feel significantly better about putting it out to the world." I'm like, "Yeah." I think that there are these little subtle psychological things that you can do to offset that worry, and that concern, that overwhelm.
I also wonder like, how much of RSD… I don't know if there's any research about this at all, and I'd be curious, is connected to the RAS, the reticulating activating system, the part of the brain that was developed to kind of like mediate risk-taking behavior, and kind of tells you like, "Hey, there's danger ahead. Don't do that thing. Don't post that thing. Don't pursue that thing. You know, don't experience that thing, because it's risky, or it's scary."
And, you know, I think the best way for me when I'm in these moments of like, major rejection sensitive dysphoria, I didn't just say that, right?
MEGAN NEFF: You did. [CROSSTALK 00:17:53]. It feels like you should. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I should say, it feels like it should say sensation. I don't know why I feel that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Or it feels like it shouldn't be rejection sensitivity dysphoria, I actually used to call it that. But it's technically rejection sensitive dysphoria, which doesn't feel right coming out of my mouth.
PATRICK CASALE: I know.
MEGAN NEFF: That's the technical term that's been used, I know.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:18:10] rejection sensitivity dysphoria many times and I'm like, no, that's-
MEGAN NEFF: I actually think I have it in print as that and then only in my last round of research was like, "Oops, that's wrong."
PATRICK CASALE: Right. I don't even know what I was saying, doesn't matter.
MEGAN NEFF: You were talking about fear, and inhibition, and RSD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, that, and that, and that. Oh, yeah, when I'm in these moments, when I'm experiencing RSD, when I'm noticing being really, like, critical of myself, really taking to heart what other people are saying, or not doing, or how I'm experiencing feedback, I've got to get out and move. Like creativity and just being in movement and grounding myself, whether it be in nature, or going for a walk, or just getting out of this space because I think a lot of the times that RSD space, that energy, that actual physical presence of like feeling stuck and confined in it, if I can just put my phone down or my laptop in my house, leave the technology behind, go for a walk for an hour, like, just go do something else away from it, it really does allow me to center, and ground, and just regulate.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. I love that. Yeah, I often will, like, use the metaphor of like burning excess energy. And that's very much what it feels like when I have a RSD trigger. Like, I just feel like so much energy. And so, absolutely, if I can channel it towards something like a walk or something that's more grounding, that helps me move through that energy more. I'm still going to have the intrusive thoughts, I'm still going to have the rumination, and I have other strategies for that, but getting the kind of stress, anxious energy out is so important, which is why, again, back to social media, right? Like, you could be in class opening your phone and you see something that activates, or like right before a business meeting, then you've got all this energy and you're supposed to be sitting and focused. So, that's probably another, like, thinking through when do I open this? Would be another consideration. I also, yeah-
PATRICK CASALE: And that would mean a good way you mentioned boundaries, you can put those restrictions on your phone, right? If you notice, like I am impulsively or compulsively checking my phone at these times, and it's creating distress, let's say it's in class, or at work, or whatever, put the boundary or limitation on the app that says like, I can't open this from this time to this time. At least, that gives you that, like, accountability check when it's like, oh, I click on Instagram and it tells me, "But you have it turned off for the next six hours." And I'm like, "Okay, now I have to make the conscious decision of do I want to continue on to Instagram? Or do I want to realize I need to step away from this for a reason because it's for my own mental health?"
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, I'm kind of decentering from this conversation to have another conversation, I'm noticing that we're like, let's start with a simple question. And we're like 20 minutes into talking about RSD in social media. And I think there's a reason we're still talking about it. I kind of wonder if we want to make this whole episode about that, and have RSD in three parts. So, it's a huge topic. So, do you want to just keep this conversation and we can get to the more complicated questions in episode three? Cool?
PATRICK CASALE: Works for me. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's also, this topic, we're probably gravitating more towards the social media topic because that's where we spend a lot of our time. Not just for our businesses, like we mentioned, but for our communities, for connection. And I think that's really challenging. Like we mentioned, the connection piece, especially, for those of us who are neurodivergent, or introverted who have a hard time going out into the world and being social or our sensory systems are just overloaded constantly, if we're working from home, especially, we're probably spending a lot of time on the internet.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So much of our life is spent in digital space, which is why like, narratives like social media is good or bad, like, just don't work because it's like, well, no, it is. And then it's like, let's have more nuanced conversations about how we use it, about our relationship to this, about when we have these social interactions through this container of digital space what does that do to the like, relationship, to the interaction? Like, it's so much more complex than is this thing that we have good or bad?
It actually reminds me, there's a study that just came out, and I've read the abstract, and I've skimmed it, but I haven't read it in detail yet. But it's a really interesting study. So, it's looking at autistic teens, and depression and anxiety. And so this is well-known in the research, right? Social media, and teen like depression, anxiety, like social media use tends to increase depression, anxiety.
So, they did a study and they looked at autistic teens versus non-autistic teens. What they found was that for non-autistic teens, like how much a person was using social media, or maybe it was digital, maybe it was screens. I think it was more broadly with screens, increased depression, anxiety, but for autistic people, it didn't it. In fact, I think it decreased it, and then where the researchers get it is autistic people are using digital space differently. They're using the internet differently. And I thought that was so interesting. And I want to do more of a deep dive into that.
But I'm also curious, I mean, we've been talking a lot about the ADHD experience. I'd be curious, like, yeah, how are autistic people using digital space differently in a way that is maybe helpful for mental health or at least less harmful?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm actually thinking of an example. I had my first major throat surgery two years ago. And I remember, like, laying in the hospital bed, like recovering and obviously, can't speak, because I'm like recovering and just had throat surgery. But I'm also isolated, right? Like, I'm just laying on the hospital bed. And I know that I'm going to be there for the next three days.
And I was online, I was in my Facebook group and I was like, talking, and just sharing updates, and whatever. And several people were like, "Hey, you're supposed to be recovering. Like, you should get off of social media." Hence, like the social media is bad phenomenon/reality. And I got really like reactive/defensive in a way where I was like, "But this is how I connect with the world. This is not taking energy from me, this is actually energizing me to feel a part of something that I've created opposed to feeling isolated and alone, laying on this hospital bed for the next three days." Like, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. And that I feel like really gets at the heart of it, which I would say is belonging, like humans have an innate need to belong. Social psychologists have really picked this up in the last handful of years of, you know, adding into some of like Freudians innate drives, when he would say an innate drive is to belong. And there's actually been some interesting research that what they demonstrated was that a lot of anxiety, and a lot of pathological anxiety, because anxiety is not always pathological is connected to this need to belong. So, this is such an innate, built in need in us. So, that's what I hear you saying in that moment is like, "Wait, no, like I need to tap into belonging as part of my recovery. And that is what I am getting from this space."
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. And I don't know if I was able to communicate it that succinctly. But what I did notice is like, I got immediately reactive, I started to feel very defensive. And I think this goes back to, maybe this is core as well for a lot of us who are neurodivergent, is not only that we need belonging, humans need belonging, absolutely, we need connection, we need to feel a part of. Like, that is just in our biology, in our genetic makeup. We need to feel seen, too. And I think that so often we do not feel seen, and we do feel overlooked, and we do feel like someone misses the mark of what we're trying to get across, or what we're trying to emphasize.
And I know for me, that feeling is really where I shut down, that's really where I experience a lot of shame, that's really where I experience some self-loathing is when I'm trying to get a point across or where I'm trying to express myself. And it's just missing the mark, and the person is just not seeing it the way that I'm trying to communicate it. And I think that for me, that is a lot of, if we're talking about the autistic experience, a lot of what I'm experiencing in these moments when we're talking about RSD.
MEGAN NEFF: We are experiencing the absence of being seen, of being missing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:27:28] situations, this can happen in appointments, this can happen in social experiences.
MEGAN NEFF: I almost want to tease that out, but I mean, I think it is part of RSD, but that like experience of being misperceived. Something I've noticed, this is a clinical observation, I haven't necessarily seen research on this, but that I've noticed autistic people, many of them really don't like just the experience of being perceived, of knowing I can be perceived and knowing, you know, if I go on a walk someone can see me, if I am doing a performance, someone can see me, just see experience of being perceived. And I wonder how much of that… I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I wonder how much of that goes back to like how frequently we are misperceived and how painful that is?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that makes sense to me.
MEGAN NEFF: Just your reactivity makes sense too. Like, I was just thinking about like, how sad that is. Like, you went to this group because it was a place you do feel belonging. And then I know they weren't trying to tell you you're doing something bad, but I imagine that's kind of how you took it in to feel so unseen in that moment, when what you were getting out of the group was belonging, but then to be misperceived in your attempt to find connection and belonging.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think it was like the situation, right? Like, I'm the moderator of All Things Private Practice. So, I set the stage, I set the tone, I create all the engagement, all the interaction, and I probably had a lead up to surgery of like, I'm going to be away from this group for a while because I'm having a throat surgery. I'm not going to participate, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then immediately, like, several hours after surgery, I'm like participating in said group. And people are probably coming from a place of like, "Oh, we're trying to look out for you, you said you were going to be recovering." So, I think it was an inability on my part to explain like, this is what I need right now. And I think that created this intense sensation of frustration. And like, I was not able to explicitly communicate my needs in that moment and just was hoping that people would just be like, "Yeah, let's talk about, you know, whatever."
MEGAN NEFF: Which that's probably like a really powerful takeaway, right? That part of neurodivergent people finding belonging and feeling seen is the ability to articulate what we need, because what we need in any given moment might not be kind of the status quo. Like right now I need space, or right now I need a hug, or right now I need to engage in this digital conversation and that this is actually helpful for me. So, A, getting clarity about what our needs are and B, finding comfortable ways to communicate that. I think that absolutely wraps into the belonging conversation-
PATRICK CASALE: For sure
MEGAN NEFF: …of being seen.
PATRICK CASALE: I want to model like, healthy communication around RSD as well, if you are okay with me sharing some behind the scenes of our friendship, and dynamic, and relationship.
MEGAN NEFF: Sure. Yes. My anxiety just went up-
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, no anxiety.
MEGAN NEFF: …but like, I love this about [CROSSTALK 00:30:53]-
PATRICK CASALE: I want to just like model it for people too.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: So, Megan, and I obviously share an Instagram account. And then we collaborate on posts for said podcast.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh. I almost texted you last night. Is this about last night?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. But I want to frame it from last night's perspective to six months ago perspective.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: So, Megan's Instagram audience is significantly larger than my Instagram audience. It's a big source of your business and community. So, when we first started this podcast, we'd send collaboration invites, Megan would accept them. Well, half the time accept them, half the time not.
MEGAN NEFF: Accept them on Fridays, I have a very specific schedule I stick to.
PATRICK CASALE: And then she would remove herself from said collaboration. And I would get the notification like, Neurodivergent Insights has removed collaboration, whatever it says, And I'm like, "What the fuck?" And then I would say, "Okay, I respect Megan, and I appreciate our relationship. I cannot have this resentment/frustration or confusion."
So, we talked about it. But I was definitely in RSD moment where I was like, Megan doesn't want to do this anymore together. I said something wrong. The video content isn't up to her standards, whatever the narrative was in my head, and then we talked about it. And you're like, "No, this is just how my brain works. And this is how I need my grid to look. And this is how I need my post to look."
And I was like, "Oh, that makes a lot more sense. Like, it's not me, it's not us, we're still having a good podcast relationship and friendship." And that happened again last night. But I did not experience it the way I experienced it six months ago, because we talked about it.
So, for those of you who are able to have these types of conversations, I think it's very useful in relationships, whether it be friendships, professional, intimate relationships. I think the struggle is for those of you who feel like you're not able to express this in a way where you're going to feel seen, heard, validated, or understood. And that's the part I would like to tease out too, is for those of you who feel like, I can't do that with people, I don't have access that way, or don't have the ability to communicate it in a way that's going to lead to feeling like we resolve these feelings or emotions.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. First, I love that you brought that up part. Like I did. I almost texted you last night to explain because like my profile grid right now, it's like divergent conversations, the middle column, and, you know, I'm autistic, I like… So, I almost texted you that I was like, "Oh, I don't want him to think." Yeah. But I love that that came up.
So, a term popped in my head when you were talking that just like came to me, relational reality testing. I think when we have RSD, that when we have those relationships that can sustain that we're going to be like, "Oh, this happened and I want to check in around it." Can be so helpful, not just for that relationship. But it starts creating, I guess, like evidence or a narrative of like, "Oh, right, my mind is not always telling me an accurate story, or a helpful story." And so having those experiences.
And then so for those situations where there's not enough trust to do that relational reality testing, if we can and have done those in relationships that are safe enough, where there's enough trust to do that, I think we can draw on those moments of like, you know, this last week this happened and my mind started telling this story and I found out it was actually about them. Maybe something similar is happening here, so we can kind of talk yourself through that perspective, I guess that perspective taking or that reality testing of like, maybe it's not about me. Like, we need a Taylor Swift song that's like opposite of the problem is me to like maybe it's not me. We need some catchy like, maybe it's not me song out there.
PATRICK CASALE: I love that. I think I like that term a lot too. And I think that's perfect to describe. And you talked about this last week where we were like, take a step back, be the detective, or the investigator, hear about your brain and what your brain and your thoughts are doing right. So, like, I think it's important to look at it that way. Also that it makes me divergent to another celebrity. I shot my shot for both of us with Chloe Hayden and her Instagram. She's an autistic celebrity, author, podcast host [INDISCERNIBLE 00:35:20]. Nevertheless, they responded, which I thought was really cool. And I was like, "Oh, man, maybe I can get them on his podcast." But sadly, not. Chloe's commitments take her away from-
MEGAN NEFF: Did that activate your RSD?
PATRICK CASALE: No, I never expected a response. So, it was actually like, "Oh, cool. At least you read this." I also shot my shot with Dr. Devin Price, have not heard back.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, speaking of social media boundaries, he's someone who has really good boundaries. And so, like, actually, I think I was inspired by him. Like, I don't know if it's changed. But back when I was more on there, like he rarely had comments on if ever. I don't think he does DM so I'm not surprised we didn't hear back. And I think it's partly because of those rock solid boundaries that he models and has.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, I agree 100% because that's the message I got. DMs are not allowed to this account. So, you know, I will continue to try.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, probably, I would guess email would be [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:30].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I tried to find it, couldn't find that but-
MEGAN NEFF: That's probably also smart.
PATRICK CASALE: Boundaries are important. And I think that Megan is someone who really has good boundaries. Like your email, auto response, your social media comments turned off for the most part. Like, you are protecting yourself and your energy. And I think that that's a big part of this, right? So, the ability to take that step back, create the boundaries that work for you, remove the interactions that are causing you harm, or distress, and trying to figure out how to channel that energy, like you said, that excess energy that you can have when you're in this RSD space, because we do need to burn it off in some way. Otherwise, it can destroy you in those moments. And it can lead to impulsivity, it can lead to things that you would like to take back, it can lead to destruction in relationships too that you care about.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, it can. Yeah, yeah. That was a beautiful summary, like paragraph, and I kind of just want to end it there. But I feel like I'm going to ruin it, because I had a thought, I had an association.
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: I think we often have to work through some of our RSD to be able to create boundaries. I think the reason I waited till I was absolutely burnt out, overwhelmed, and struggling with health before I put up boundaries was partly because of my RSD of like, but people will be upset, but I won't be accessible. But like, that made it hard for me to go into digital spaces with boundaries. Or I have to respond to every email, right? Like, because of the RSD. So, that's a tricky thing here. Boundaries are really helpful for RSD, but we have to work through a level of it to be able to cultivate those boundaries, or just get burnt out enough that like you're like, "Okay, fuck it, boundaries."
PATRICK CASALE: That's where I got to. I mean, I learned some from you, you know, and your boundaries. But I got to, and I'm glad you just named that because that's honestly very, very important. It allows for us to not minimize the experience. Like, I think that you have to work through it to create the boundaries for sure, or be working on it. And you may be working on it, because like you said, you get to the place where it's like, "Fuck it, I don't care." And that's the place I got to for a while. And maybe that's the place I'm in is like when I meet with my therapist, she's like, "So, the ADHD part wants to create, create, create, the autistic part looks at the calendar and, you know, is already exhausted and frustrated about the planning."
But then I got to this place where both parts had no interest in doing any of it. And I think that was the fuck it moment where it was like, "Yeah, I'm not I'm not responding to every DM, or consult request, or email anymore. I'm just going to respond with blanket statements or referrals outward because I just cannot do it.
And it's unfortunate that so many of us have to get to that place, because there's so much connection, we talked about attachment systems last week with feeling useful, feeling responsive, having value based on feeling responsive or useful, working through that internalized sensation of I'm not going to be valuable, I'm not going to be useful, people aren't going to think of me, people aren't going to want to connect with me if I put these boundaries in place. So, it's a lot of unlearning. And it's a lot of healing when you're working through how to navigate this process.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. If there is one gift to burnout, and I feel weird, calling it a gift, maybe growth edge to burnout, it is, if it propels you to build a life that works for you, right? Like so many of us, the life we're living doesn't work for us, and we get burnt out. And if the pattern is like, live that life, burnout, kind of recover, go back to that life. Like, that's just going to be a perpetual cycle. But if that burnout is the thing, that's fine. Like, okay, I've got to do something different here. And if that becomes the instigator for cultivating a life that works, and like boundaries are a big part of that, that is, yeah, I guess, kind of the gift of burnout. And again, I feel we're using any kind of gift language with burnout, because it's atrocious, but…
PATRICK CASALE: I think it's illuminating in a lot of ways, though. I think it kind of is illuminating into what your next steps are, when you get to that level of burnout, where it's like, fuck it, I don't care anymore. I have to set these boundaries, otherwise, the results are XYZ.
MEGAN NEFF: It's kind of like grief. Like, I think about those moments in life that break you wide open, which are those moments that invite you into transformation if you can accept that invitation. And like grief absolutely does that. I would say burnout also does that.
PATRICK CASALE: Agreed. Well, I think that you just added to my summation perfectly. So, for those of you listening, lots of good takeaways here, and things that you can implement. I hope we answered the one question that we set out to answer-
MEGAN NEFF: One of the questions we got to.
PATRICK CASALE: DR. MEGAN NEFF: We start with the easy question and talk for an hour. Divergent Conversations is out every Friday on all major platforms and YouTube, and we will do part three, simultaneously. Goodbye.
