Episode 26: Exploring Different Neurotypes: Ask an Autistic [featuring Amanda Diekman]
Dec 25, 2023
Show Notes:
Do you wonder how life might differ between an Autistic individual without ADHD and an Autistic individual with ADHD?
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Amanda Diekman, mother of three neurodivergent children, and an author and coach in the neurodivergent-affirming parenting world, about her experiences as an Autistic individual without ADHD.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Understand some of the struggles, grief, and loss surrounding switching between a masked and unmasked self.
- Identify some of the ways that autism without ADHD can present differently from other neurotypes, including sensory issues, special interests, demand avoidance, and life tasks.
- Get a glimpse into the world of parenting for neurodivergent moms.
There are many nuances surrounding the experiences of Autistic individuals since autism is a disability you can’t necessarily see. We want to give this disclaimer that this episode only highlights the experience of one Autistic person, but it still gives a glimpse into the unique ways that various neurotypes experience the world.
More about Amanda:
Amanda Diekman's mission is to lead weary parents into the joy and ease of the low-demand life. She's an ordained pastor and parent coach, a late diagnosed autistic adult, and a mom of three neurodivergent children. Since recovery from her own burnout and PTSD, Amanda has been spreading the message of low-demand parenting — dropping demands and aligning expectations to meet children with radical acceptance. She lives in the North Street Community, an intentional community of all abilities in downtown Durham.
- Amanda's Website: www.amandadiekman.com
- Amanda’s Book: Low Demand Parenting
- Parenting Summit: Low Demand Parenting Summit
- Mastermind: Amanda’s Mastermind Program
🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors, Tula Consulting & Marisa La Piana LCSW Psychotherapy!
We would love to thank Tula Consulting for sponsoring this episode.
Workplace communication can be messy. Considering the lens of neurodiversity can be helpful for understanding this. Maybe you found yourself frustratedly typing "per my last email" in an office communication, perplexed about how a colleague or client doesn't seem to understand your very clearly written email.
Consider this. Visual information processing isn't everyone's strength. Perhaps a quick call could make a world of difference. Or how about including a video or voice message with your email? And this technology exists! Simple steps like these can make your work environment more accessible and bring out the best in everyone.
Tula Consulting is on a mission to help organizations build more neuro-inclusive products and work environments. Tula does this by bringing curious minds to solve curious problems. Find out more by visiting tulaneurodiversity.org.
✨ Marisa La Piana LCSW Psychotherapy:
We would love to thank Marisa La Piana Psychotherapy for sponsoring this episode.
Marisa (she/they) is a neuroqueer licensed clinical social worker and trauma therapist. They bring a queer and neurodivergent-affirming, anti-ableist lens to their practice.
She is passionate about utilizing attachment-focused EMDR work, parts work, and body-based somatic work to support folks with trauma healing. They are also deeply influenced and inspired by the inherent strengths, resilience, and wisdom of queer, disabled, and neurodivergent communities. Marisa offers both individual therapy as well as workshops and trainings.
If you reside in the state of California and you're looking for a queer, neurodivergent-affirming therapist, you can schedule a free consultation at marisalapianalcsw.com.
Transcript
MEGAN NEFF: Well, welcome back to segment three of our Ask A Neurotype series. We have Amanda here for Ask An Autistic, which I'm so excited about. First, just a huge disclaimer, we are asking one person about their experience of their neurotype, that is not a global statement on everyone's experience.
So, with that, I'm really excited to introduce you to Amanda. Amanda and I have worked on a few projects together. She just released a fantastic book, Low Demand Parenting. And she's really active in the neurodivergent informing parenting world, especially, for PDAs or anyone wanting to learn how to parent in a low demand way.
Amanda, do I feel like I captured that right? What would you like to add? I should say.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I am a mom of three neurodivergent kids. And I discovered that I was autistic some point in my 37th year. So, I gave myself my autism, like official diagnostic experience was my 38th birthday present to myself.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my goodness. Wait, I love… like you went for an assessment on your birthday?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: It was two days before because my-
MEGAN NEFF: I love that.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: …birthday was on holiday.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that so much. Did you make like a cake? Like. Happy Birthday, I'm Autistic because that would have been amazing.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: The truth is that I was super ready for the assessment. I had self-identified for months and gone through a full diagnostic process for one of my kids where I was like, check, check, check all the boxes. But it's still getting the official diagnosis sent me into about a two-week swirl brain cloud where I wasn't really very present or celebratory. I was just communing with the younger parts of myself and feeling a lot of self-compassion and grief. So, I think the cake part came about three weeks after the diagnosis when I was ready to say hello world, I'm autistic. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, there's so much I love about what you just said. And my brain is diverging in so many ways. Like, one, just the combination of grief, and liberation, and how that is such a common experience. So, love how you dropped parts work in there, which Patrick talks about all the time. I think is so healing, especially, in that discovery process.
Yeah, I was also 37. I feel like I keep seeing, maybe it's like confirmation bias, but I feel like I see 37 pop up a lot as a time of identification. Yeah, yeah.
Well, part of your claim to fame beyond your book and your awesome resources is that you're the only autistic person in your family that's not also ADHD. Do I have that right?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yes, yes, yes. And some of my family members are very ADHD-forward. Like, that's kind of the leading edge of how they move through the world. So, I feel like not being ADHD in a way is a big part of what kept my wider family from knowing I was neurodivergent because they were like, "Well, clearly you don't struggle because we are all struggling and you are over there just fine."
And it made it harder for some of the places that I really struggle, like some of the social communication, and the intense inward feeling of not ever fitting in anywhere that some members of my family didn't struggle with quite as intensively. I think in some ways the ADHD kind of gave them, I don't know, some sort of social superpowers that I didn't have. But that was not as evident in the family dynamic because it seemed like I didn't have any trouble following through when I said I was going to do something. I was incredibly detail-oriented. I never lost the thread in a conversation. And those were many of the biggest skill gaps that the people around me were struggling with. So, they were like, "Man, Amanda, she's as neurotypical as they come. Like, just not ADHD."
MEGAN NEFF: Well, that's interesting because what you're describing is intact executive functioning. And so with that the autism could go missed. Patrick, do you mind muting when… I'm hearing the, I don't know if it's the right noise? Oh, there it is. Thanks. Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: I just want to jump in real quick though, Megan, because that's kind of what my experience was like, too. Although I am autistic ADHD, I think autistic parts are much more pronounced and it gets missed a lot. And I just remember, like, feeling like exactly what you said that intense loneliness, disconnection, and socially, especially. It was what really led to me seeking out my diagnosis in terms of being 35 and getting diagnosed at that time.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I agree. And sometimes people talk about like not having the rulebook to other people, feeling like the key to unlocking connection was always missing unless I contorted, and chameleoned, and performed, Like, became somebody else. And it felt like it was one option or the other. It was authenticity and loneliness, or it was connection and betrayal of self. And they both hurts so excruciatingly that I ended up choosing connection and betrayal itself because it felt like it was the safer way. Of course, it was very reinforced by the world around me. Masked Amanda was very well-liked. But the hard part is that the lonely authentic part of me doesn't go anywhere. She just hangs out inside. Like, no one really likes me, no one really sees me, no one really wants me that you ultimately can't betray yourself because wherever we go, there we are.
And so it was, you know, intact executive functioning in some ways. Made me a really strong masker because I was very, very perceptive and making some pretty clear cognitive loops between what other people were saying and wanting from me and then how I performed.
I sometimes envied family members who seemed like they were like, "Well, I am who I am. You know, take me or leave me." I was like, I never have that power. It was take me, take me, please. I'll do anything.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That internal experience feels so, I've said, like, feels so torturous, like internally, like this push/pull tug of war, and like, where do I belong? How do I show up as my true self? Do I even understand my true self? Why do I feel so disconnected? Why do I feel so lonely and isolated even when I'm around people who "care about me?"
And I just commend you for just, you know, working through that experience and naming that too. And I think, for me, I've said it many times in this podcast, like the grief relief process of like, diagnosis was grief-inducing, for sure. And it was also majorly relieving in a lot of ways after I processed the grief and some of my own internal experiences.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I feel so free. Over and over again, in my life, I've had people who love me really well help me to name this reality with some metaphors that have been really powerful. I'm an ordained Presbyterian pastor. And when I stepped down from pastoring, I knew… this was years before my diagnosis, but I knew that this work that we're outlining was the path ahead for me and that it was too hard for me to be a pastor and figure out who I wanted to be in the world. And I had come up with the metaphor of myself feeling like I was a turtle, that all the soft, tender parts of me were very small and very hidden. And the shell, the big, strong, capable back was like, displayed for all to see and there were all these people all over my shell. And that I was just dragging them along with me, and that I was dreaming of being a turtle without people all over my shell.
And then this dear friend and colleague pulled me aside and said, "Amanda, you're not a turtle. You're a flipping bird." And that was like my first glimmer of being autistic. It's like, I'm not even a turtle. It's not that I've got so many people on my shell and that I'm so tired, it's that I'm the wrong creature altogether. And that, gosh, becoming the bird has been because a bird-like soars and a bird has urgency, and be like alone, and in a flock, and just like the isolated, tired turtle dragging the people across the street is like all of my old self. And the freedom has been the bird.
MEGAN NEFF: That's a beautiful metaphor, I love that. Yeah, I was going to ask kind of based on that, I think the answer is yes, first of all, I love the kind of this or that scenario that you drew out of like, either I think it was authenticity and-
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Loneliness.
MEGAN NEFF: Loneliness, or connection and betrayal. Was that it? That captures it, I think, so profoundly. And I was going to ask if since diagnosis and discovery, have you found a third way?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: One thing is that I've discovered how much I enjoy being alone. So, I have recovered loneliness, that loneliness is actually still bound up in ableism. It's still saying there's something wrong with this emotional experience or something scary. And I've discovered how little social interaction I need in order to feel whole and thriving.
MEGAN NEFF: Same.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: It is remarkably little. And that that doesn't then make me and then like a loner, a social misfit. Like all of these labels that are put on people who really just have a very small need for social interaction. And that, like, it fills me all the way up. I'm all full, and I feel so good, and I really only need one friend that I see every couple of weeks for a short period of time, relatively. Like [CROSSTALK 00:12:16]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I love that.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: … that. So, my third way is like, maybe it's a healing and a recovery of that earlier self. I guess, it is a third way. It's saying loneliness is really not loneliness. It's being honest about what fills me up and then choosing those things wholeheartedly without label or judgment. And then recognizing that being full of myself is actually how I feel most connected to the world.
But my primary connection to me is actually what makes me feel so vibrantly alive. And that connection to other is quite secondary for me. And then I have to say that my family has become a really crucial middle space there. The more that I unmask, and that I feel truly free, and cozy, and nestled, and comfortable in my immediate family dynamic, like with my children, with my husband, that I'm experiencing, really, for the first time what it feels like to be in a flock, that I've kept myself lonely even within my most intimate connections for the before times as well. So, even with the people I trust the most, I still am holding back so much of myself, I'm still being very secretive with my true self.
And so laying aside those old patterns of protection and choosing to trust the people who have earned it is also a big piece of what makes me feel whole and connected to myself and others at the same time. It's the same work.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and yeah, those are still reciprocal, right? Like, I actually talk to people about this a lot of, we you could be going through the motions of connecting to others, but unless we're connected with ourself, we're not actually going to feel deeply connected to others. And so I hear the both and of that, and taking the space you need to connect yourself it also has allowed you to show up kind of authentically in your core relationships, to where you're also feeling deeper connections.
I've experienced a very similar experience, especially, with my nuclear family. And, like, I was relating so hard to everything you were saying about, like being alone and giving myself permission to be okay not being social. Like, so on the SRS, it's one of the autism measures, there's a scale for social motivation. And if it's really elevated, that means you have very little. Mine is very, very elevated. It was the most elevated out of my scales.
And for so long I overrode that instinct because of all the shoulds, like I should be socially X,Y, Z and just realizing, yeah, I love connecting with ideas through books, and through taking in information, and I love being creative. And being able to actually think through do I want to go to this event? Like, it sounds so simple, but it's actually quite radical.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, yeah, it's made a big difference in our family life for me to be really honest about this because I do opt out of a lot of things that I was participating in before. But it's actually really freeing because a number of my children don't want to go to various things, too. And so it becomes very aligned to that my partner, my husband is neurotypical with a really strong love for kind of like, busy social environments. He's a social butterfly, I guess you would say. And so, you know, if there's a soccer game, where I know there's going to be a ton of sideline conversations, and interruptions, and some kids want to stay home, like in the old times, we would have done a pretty detailed dance around who's going to do what. And now it's like, "Can I please stay home? I would love to stay home." And he's like, "Okay, awesome because I really want to go." And it's so easy. It's just like what do you want to do?
MEGAN NEFF: I love that.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: And same with birthday parties. We live in an intentional community. So, we have a lot of big community events, which my heart is with everything that we're about, but I don't actually love going to most of the events, but my husband does. So, it's just made it so easy. So, I get all of this cozy alone time with my more introverted or maybe somebody who's kind of a little anxious about that gathering, or it's just not their thing, then they always know they can stay home with me. And we're all getting our needs met.
I used to think that, like, not only the shoulds but some shame that I didn't really want to go. And so I would override it, in part because I didn't want to face my own shame. And-
MEGAN NEFF: Can I jump in?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Go ahead. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I don't want to do reels too much into like, mom and parenting. But I think, especially, you know, we're both in kind of a heteronormative structured marriages, there's a lot of social pressure for the moms to be the ones to take the kids to the events. And same thing in my family since discovery. My husband is introverted. But he has so much more tolerance for socializing than I do. So, we've shifted, we've defaulted to where he takes the kids, or similarly like one of my kids really loves the movie theater, one doesn't. I cannot handle movie theaters. So, I'm the designated, I'll stay home with the kid. And it works really well.
And I also love how it pushes against a lot of the narrative of what a mom should be because there's so much pressure for us to be the designated social parent.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, yeah. And I'm in the homeschooling world, also, where that is like times 10.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, that is times 10 for your world.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: So, opting out or saying, "You know, one person can come over. I would love for one person and one kid to come over, but we can't do a co-op, we can't do, you know, gathering, I can't turn something like my home that feels super safe into something that feels chaotic. It needs to meet my needs too." And that has been so much easier to do as I've become more honest with myself.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Well, can we ask you some questions that we've been asking everyone kind of about their neurotype experience as our little compare and contrast?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Sure, let's do it.
PATRICK CASALE: You can start us off, Megan, with whatever you've got.
MEGAN NEFF: I noticed you unmuted so I thought maybe. Well, first, I feel like you've started talking about this, but can you tell us a little bit more like what is your experience of small talk and kind of socializing I guess, in general?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Okay, I experience small talk, especially, in an environment where there are multiple small talk conversations happening all at the same time. It feels to me like being in a rushing river. It feels like I will drown here and that my first mode is actually to try to dissociate in order to float. I imagine myself I'm like thrashing and kicking trying to participate in this moment. And instead, I kind of like go under, and put my head back, and I drown out the sound. It's like, it all turns into a moo moo, like when you put your head under the water, and I'm just like, just make it, just stay right here.
I'm remembering imagining myself, one of the last parties that I went to was a while back. And I usually cling pretty tightly to my partner in these environments because of that drowning feeling. It's like, you're the only person here that I feel like I can anchor to. And he went inside to do something. And so I was out all by myself. And I feel so acutely aware of my body. Like, I turn into like a reptile or something like that. And I sort of start to slowly move away from the conversation that I'm a part of, like, maybe if I just like, take tiny steps away, I can extricate myself from this.
And so I eventually went and sat, there was like a bunch of people chatting, and there was one table. And I went and sat at the table by myself and just ate. I just, like, shoveled food. And my husband came and found me later and he was like, "Do you need saving?" And I was like, "No, I'm okay." And he said, "Well, there's a person over there that is interested. I think they study autism and medical care, something like that. And like, do you want me to introduce you?" And I was like, "Yes, that would be great."
And so then he kind of like found me a person that I could special interest with. And I said, "Do you mind if we moved to this corner of the yard?" And we had like a deep dive conversation separate from other people and I was able to really enjoy that.
But it's so acutely different that, like, it's a kind of a panic reaction to in terms of what my physiology is communicating. So, I'm guessing that both parts of my nervous system are hitting it hard.
And what I think is so confusing, it always has been confusing for me, is that when I disconnect from my genuine self, like, if I completely disconnect from my body, I'm actually really good. I can fake and I don't know how fake it is. I can perform small talk really well, where the other person would never know how hard I am working and the cost. And so I didn't know because I kept the reality of the experience that I was having way under lock and key. But of course, like many people, you know, it just came out in all these other ways. Like, why am I so chronically anxious? Why am I depressed? Why can't I accomplish the things that I want to in life? And it was kind of all bound up in this round neckly extremely stressful social situation that I kept getting myself into. As a pastor, I did [CROSSTALK 00:24:16]-
MEGAN NEFF: I was thinking about that. I was like, if you were a pastor there's a lot of small talk that goes into that, yes.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: So much. And sometimes I was able to quickly steer it into deep talk. But usually, I was suppressing just how intense the embodied experience is that I was having.
PATRICK CASALE: I actually want to ask you about the... that's a good segue as well, is during small talk, right? When you're noticing these experiences now, maybe not in those moments beforehand, what are you experiencing behind the scenes when you're feeling like trapped in terms of like, are we mimicking gestures? Are we mimicking body language? Are nodding our head a lot? Like, how was eye contact as well?
Because I notice for me when I'm in a masked state, I feel this need to like nod my head a lot, and validate, and socially reinforce, and like make more eye contact, even though it's unbelievably uncomfortable for me instead of being able to just look away, or look down, or look to the side. And what I'm experiencing internally is, like, this constriction feeling of like, how the hell do I get out of this?
And I do a lot of, I won't call them Irish goodbyes anymore, but I'll call them autistic goodbyes maybe, but I definitely don't do a good job of it. Like, if I want to get out of the conversation, I do not do a good job of like saying, like, "Hey, I'm going to leave. Goodbye." I'm just like, "I'm getting out of here." And I just pack away.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I do the same thing. My goodbyes are one of, I think, that's like a clear place that I've never been able to mask. I have always done something where I like make it clear it looks like I'm going to the bathroom or like, "Oh, I got a call." And then I just leave instead. I still do that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, me too, me too.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: All the time.
PATRICK CASALE: All the time, all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:26:06] like wrap up a conversation. I mean, every week on this podcast, I'm like, "Patrick, you do…" I actually was just having an anxious moment Patrick might hop off early today. And I was like, "Oh, shit, am I going to have to say the goodbye." And I was starting to script like what does he say every week? Like, why are goodbyes so hard?
PATRICK CASALE: It's so true. And I do the same thing, Amanda. Like, I will pretend I have a phone call. I'm like, "Oh, hey." And I like put it to my ear. And I'm like, I just walk away. And then I just put the phone in my pocket. Like, it's clearly not illuminated. Clearly, nobody's calling me, there's no voice coming out of the other side. But I have to get out of there. And when I have to get out of there, I have to go immediately. Like, it has to be like that. It cannot be like a long drawn-out process.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, longer goodbyes are so awkward because you, like, keep summarizing, like, "Have a good week, have a good week, good to talk to you, good to talk to you. Bye-bye." It's like what is the closing statement?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you get caught in this loop of like, continuously saying the same thing over and over, hoping for that like, exit point, and then you can't find it. So, you have to like force the issue. And my face will just shift completely. Like, it'll be like, looking for the exit very dramatically. And like, I don't know how to get out of this situation, I'm out.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yes, well, the only thing I would add to all of this around, like what's happening in my body when I'm masking really heavily is I get increasingly rigid in my body. So, I start to lock my knees, then I'm flexing my thighs, then my hands are starting to turn into little grippy balls, then I start clenching my jaw. It's like my whole body is freezing up. And I often lock on eye contact which people have always commented, like, that I'm such a good listener but I never look away. I am, like, zeroed in and like, the looking away and knowing when to look like, I can't do that. But if I'm really going to be in touch with myself, any kind of truly difficult question like, "What do you want for dinner?" I have to close my eyes. Like [CROSSTALK 00:28:30]-
MEGAN NEFF: …couple of questions like what do you want for dinner? Because that's so true.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yes. Like, if you guys asked me, like, you'll know it's a hard one when I'm like, I have to close my eyes. Like, there's just no way for me to know what I think unless I shut out the visual stimulation.
MEGAN NEFF: You did that just a minute ago when I asked you about small talk. You took a moment, you shut your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, it's a need and yet it's one that I have overridden with this intense eye contact.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yes, okay, that's right. Is there any other autistics specific questions, Patrick, you want to ask before I hop on the like ADHD verse autism questions?
PATRICK CASALE: I always like to know, socializing is always the big one. I like to always know about like transitions and like changes unexpectedly and abruptly, how those feel or experience. I also think about, like, food consistencies, textures, things like that. But ultimately, special interests, all of those questions are the things that come to mind. But I am happy to sass out the two between ADHD and autism as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, those are great questions. Amanda, you just heard a bunch basically, yeah, all the autism criteria, special interest, sensory stuff, routine disruptions, which with a family full of ADHD, I think you'd have a bit of. Like, are there any of those that are grabbing your attention of like, oh, yeah, I want to talk about that.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I've always had an uneasy relationship with routine. I always craved it as a young person and I would generate a lot of very rigid routines. But in a family of ADHDers, it was really difficult for us to ever stick to any of them. And so I created a idolized persona of myself, where I am very consistent and routine-driven. And then as I've grown into myself as an actual adult, and not the fictional adult I thought I wanted when I was a kid, it turns out that I actually much prefer to have free and open time where I can move through it without a sense of how it is supposed to be that actually scripting my own day and following a regimented order is more of a stress as, what did they say? That the autism criteria are actually autism stress behaviors. Like, I think that that is actually a stress behavior for me and not actually a safety and flow need.
And that, if there are too many things expected of me, then that produces stress. And then I get very regimented on how I will do all of those things. But when I do what I do, which is drop all those demands, release the expectations, and do the proactive and deep work around restoring a sense of flow in life that actually works for me, very few externally driven routines, I'm very much in tune with, what do I feel like doing right now? What might feel good to my body?
But I think, in a way because I'm not ADHD, just to kind of get to your, I don't have quite the same sense of time blindness. Like, I don't lose myself in quite the same way. And so I feel like I'm able to follow the flow without it completely derailing like the things that I want to do with my day. Like, I can hold the kind of loose agenda, and follow my flow, and feel like it'll probably all get done. Like, that's the thing that I can have confidence in, which I think, and I've never been autistic and ADHD, but I think it's hard to feel that sense in yourself. Like, I can do these things if I just follow my flow.
MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting because I I've always thought of this as hyper fixation, but maybe it's more hyper-focus. I have a hard time, kind of, I'll create a structure for my day or a to-do list. But then what will often happen is I'll end up spending like eight hours deep in a workbook, when I like set out to be like, I'm going to do three hours of admin, email, like charting. But then I'll get into a project, get really focused, the day has gone by, and I have no inertia to go do the boring things. But does that that happens to you less? Like, if you're like, I'm going to do these things today, you just do them?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: So, like yes and no. I can only do three things in a day and sometimes more. And it depends on if they're hard things. Like, if I have to call and make a doctor's appointment, it's just one thing.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, yeah, nothing more.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: That's it. Yeah, it is. And I know a lot of people talk about, like, you kind of sit around waiting for five hours, and then you do the thing, and then you decompress for another four hours. Like, that is actually my real life. I am spending a lot of that time, you know, with my children. And it's not empty time. But I only do one hard thing a day.
And I think that's one of the ways that, like, I am autistic in that, sometimes my capacity for those challenges is pretty limited. But I can find a time in my day when I will want to do it. Like, that's how I feel about daily tasks, like not every day do I find a time where I want to wash the dishes, but almost every day at some point I want to do it. But if I say I always do it first thing in the morning when I wake up, and then I don't want to do it at that time, that can really throw me off. So, I'll just say, like, pay attention to yourself, when do you want to do it? When is it the right match for energy?
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. I do a ton of that, of like I have tasks, but then I pair it to my energy because my energy is all over the place. Sometimes it's physical energy, sometimes it's cognitive energy. And that's been probably one of the biggest accommodations, or the best accommodations I've given myself is to create enough space in my life where the tasks can pretty much pair with the energy. And I love that. Before like that created a lot of strain and stress in my body, when I was like doing a task that was in conflict with the energy I had.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I agree with that. And a lot of times I would be doing it out of somebody is putting a lot of pressure on me to do the thing. Like, you really need to do this, you really need to do this. And that just increases my stress and resistance to doing the thing.
And so if I feel a lot of stress, like, well, recently, I got a computer a while back, and I really needed to get AppleCare on it because we have so much issues with broken technology around here. And the harder my husband reminded me to do it, the less likely I was to do it. And guess what? I never did it. And then it got broken. And he was like, "Did you do it? Like, I really wanted you to." And I was like, "I know, I didn't. I really didn't." And then I felt really terrible because like he tried his very hardest to get me to do it.
And I started to like, maybe I don't deserve a new computer. You know, this was my fault. And I really appreciated the way that my husband pivoted, maybe this is a good example of what it looks like for the people in our lives to be accommodating. Because he was like, "You know, it's okay. This is one of the costs of having a disability that people don't see. And it's okay, you couldn't do it. And next time, we'll put it in my name so that I can do it for you, that asking you to do it was too much."
Because sometimes I can tell right away that the task is not like at some point, my energy is going to match this task. Like, my energy will never match this task. That's how it was for me with the AppleCare. Like, I was never going to get it done.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. First of all, I love that as a response from your husband. That's really beautiful. I've mentioned similar stories with my husband where things that, yeah, are expensive that I like start having so much shame about where he stepped in and be like, "You know what, that's part of your brain. You also like use your creativity in your brain to bring in income, and there's like…"
Like, actually I had the other day, I realized a pretty significant oversight that cost my business quite a bit of money and I don't know if you've seen those reels of like the ADHD tax for personal life? I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I applied the ADHD tax for my business, it is substantive." And again, this is part of our brains, it's going to happen.
But that's actually pivoting me to a question I wanted to ask you, which is around the interest-based nervous system because I've gone back and forth on putting that in the middle of my Venn diagram between ADHD and autism. But part of what I heard in that was, it was hard for you to get yourself to start that task. I'm curious, does the interest-based nervous system so that idea that if it's outside of an area of interest, or urgency, or novelty, that it's really hard to get started? Does that resonate with your experience?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Just say those things one more time, I just need [CROSSTALK 00:40:51]-
MEGAN NEFF: Interest, urgency, novelty.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: The category I would put on there that you didn't mention is like, love or service. Like that is what enables me to do that.
MEGAN NEFF: This is my… Well, actually, my theory is much colder than you, my theory was that if you add duty to it, then that's the autistic experience, that duty. But I love how you put it in more relational terms of service. And that is very motivating for autistic people. So, that's so funny that that was exactly the theory I was working with, yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, my oldest is autistic and needs, like, cleanliness, and a certain type of cleanliness is a really high bar for him. But it's really difficult for me to execute with our family structure. And so the only thing that gets me over the hump to do it is I think about how much I love him and how much he needs this and then I can do it. I don't need novelty, I don't need… Actually, some of those things hurt me, urgency really hurts me.
MEGAN NEFF: What? That was my hypothesis was I think autistic people are probably more prone to kind of get paralysis and its urgency. I see that, the pressure. Whereas for an ADHD system, it's like, okay, let's go. So, that was another one of my kind of theories around that was the urgency would actually backfire.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Interest is always going to be, you know, the way in.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I'd put that at the center of the diagram.
MEGAN NEFF: You would say, like, interest and then, like, relational care service would be two drivers. If it's outside of those two, is it hard to get yourself started on a task?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Pretty much everything else is hard to get started on.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah. If it's not an area of special interest, or it is not in service to someone I love, that's pretty much everything I don't do.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Speaking of special interest, what special interests do you have? Or have you noticed over the years?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: A friend of mine, where we're kind of kicking around things about our neurotype lately, and she said, "Is it okay to say that I think I'm my own special interest?" And I was like, "It's okay to say that." That really struck a chord with me. I think that deep introspective work about me, like I have always been one of my own favorite subjects. I am the easiest thing for me to talk about. It's part of the reason that I have really enjoyed podcasting is that it takes away the obvious 50/50 reciprocity of most conversations, and it's like I'm expected to talk about myself 90% of the time, and that feels so easy.
And my children have been a special interest for me since they were born. I got really hyper-focused on understanding autism for a season when that was my number one special interest in parenting. Parenting with radical acceptance at the center is the other thing. And I pretty much think about all those things all the time.
My kind of less known special interests are, Disney World is one. I'm wild about Disney World. And when we were talking about connection, like fiction reading, historical fiction about women, especially, if it's like fantasy historical fiction about like, ancient witches and stuff like that, like that is 100% my jam. And I get a lot of connection from like the ancestors. And sort of a sense of like, alternate identity. Like, if I'd been born in another time and place, like who I would have, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I can relate so hard to that, like so hard. Yeah, I got to jump off of here, but you all are going to continue the combo. So, I appreciate meeting you and having you on for this. I just wanted to say that before I get out.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Thank you, thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: As much as I hate saying goodbyes. So, goodbye, see you, Megan.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Just go.
MEGAN NEFF: I love how you made a business out of your special interest. That's something Patrick and I both also done and I don't think I could run a business or really do work outside of my interest because it would be so, so hard.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I've never even fathomed it really. I think it's always felt so utterly impossible. And when I was a pastor, and well, before I was a pastor, I think that my sense of inability to get like a job, and how deeply I have known that, and how long I have known that is another piece of this, like self-knowledge that has always been really clear. Like, I have absolutely never been able to imagine myself doing almost every job I see other people doing. And really any job that's handed to me because it has to be my unique view of the world in order for it to be a fit.
So, even though I was completely consumed and engrossed in theology, and church history, and social action, and the way that we can, like, corporately represent our values in the world, I was like, I could never serve a church because I mean, I could never be a part of a system like that. I've never been able to participate in a system. One of the ways that I compensate or work around that is that I always am the leader of everything that I'm a part of, and then I infuse it with my interests.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that was one of the reasons it was hard for me to see myself as autistic is, like, I'm pretty good at leading groups or creating groups. But then I realized that, especially, when I went through my doctoral training, I realized I had a hard time developing friends within my cohort. But what I became was like, my supervisor or mentor called me like the TA extraordinaire. Like, I would TA all the classes, I would lead groups, and I can mentor people.
And again, that's not a reciprocal relationship. Therapy is not a reciprocal conversation, I mean, to some degree. And so I found myself in these roles where I could, like, kind of hide the reciprocal aspects that were harder for me. So, yeah, it's interesting.
And I also did seminary, we've talked about that. And theology was a special interest of mine for a long time. And I thought I was going to become, like a Hebrew scholar, was my first school, which would have worked well, right? That's reading, and research, and writing, and teaching, which is, again, not very reciprocal. The church would have been hard for me, too.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I've also gravitated to those kinds of roles where I'm in deep connection with others, but where I'm playing a specific role in their life, that I find it easier, you know, again, to use the parts where it's like I'm choosing only one part, and occupying that, but like being the fullness of me is harder. And so I can be teacher Amanda or I can be pseudo therapist Amanda. But all of those are pretty narrow slices of me, and that's what enables me and they're non-reciprocal relationships, yeah. Usually, where I'm in a giving role. Although, I can sometimes flip it where I'm in the exclusive teaching role. I'm also good at that.
MEGAN NEFF: Right, when you're teaching, or you're coaching, or you're on a podcast. Yeah, yeah. That's actually one of the reasons I think a lot of people that go unidentified is like when we're in the helping role, it's still a non-reciprocal conversation, but people aren't expressing concern about that. And so, you know, we go under the radar, under the autism radar, yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: Because you could be like a good helper and a good listener.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yep. It's very reinforced as well. And so you become more and more that role as people are like, "Wow, this is you, you're just so this." And you're like, "Oh, this must be me." This is just so… But it's really a very, very small [CROSSTALK 00:50:04]-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that gets so complex, right? Because that becomes, I think, for a lot of us, I know for me part of our core identity because it's so reinforced that then to unmask for me meant to give up this part of my identity that had been so reinforced and valued, that that's its own complex process of giving up that, accommodating-
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Especially, when the identity that came before it, largely for me, when I was younger, and before I took on that role so very, very fully, was like, "You're too much, you're so picky." So, I was like, "Oh, okay, then I'll become super flexible and the nicest person you've ever met." And everybody liked that version much better. And the first one was actually much truer. And so that also makes unmasking feel extra risky.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to ask one more, maybe two more ADHD questions, and then I want to be cognizant of your time as well.
Okay, I just did a deep dive on RSD, rejection-sensitive dysphoria. And the research really comes out of the ADHD research. It's also common among autistic people, but it's unclear if that's because of co-occurring ADHD or if it's just a shared experience.
And again, to summarize, RSD is kind of like an intense response to any perceived rejection or criticism. A lot of people with RSD describe it as like will have a physical pain, like a gut punch or kind of chest pain. Is that part of your experience?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I've actually thought about this a lot. So, as with the things I've thought about a lot, it's like I could tell you 20 minutes of things about it, but I'm not sure how to summarize. I think from sitting with this question, I do not experience it very often. I have experienced it enough that when you say those words, I can feel the echo of sensation in my body, like I have felt that. But it's not a common experience for me. And I think that it's possible that because of that, the mechanism that's leading to it is different than for people with RSD.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so like, I'm going to bring it to practical, we're both on social media. I'm at a point where like, every time I open the app, I have a stomachache. Like, I actually struggle to open the app because of, like, if there's a negative comment on a post, I will think about that all day and it might even carry over to the next day. Like, last week, I had a Venn diagram that there was a lot of dislike of the Venn diagram I put up.
And like that ruin my day. And I hated that it ruined my day. And then I like, hated that I hated that, you know, those spiraling emotions.
You're on social media. I imagine that some of your posts don't get all love because these are controversial topics. When you have a negative comment, what is that experience like for you?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: My primary emotion is shame, and hide, and never show up again. I want to withdraw-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah. I relate.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: …and retreat, yeah. And so one of the things that feels good to me and that is, I have like a little thing that I say to myself, I say I'm just a mom in North Carolina. Like, I try to remember, I'm like, I'm just another human. And it's a way that I also remind myself that I don't have to be anything. Like, my identity is not what's out there in the world being judged like that resides with me and me only. And also just like a little, like, I can always quit. Like, I can always just stop being Low Demand Amanda and just be a mom in North Carolina. Like, I'm not stuck.
Sometimes I will get into like a pretty lengthy argument with the person inside of my head. I don't love that because I'm giving them a lot of real estate in my head and I really don't enjoy doing that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Something that I really like to do that is like, kind of celebrate that like my ideas are big enough that people don't like them because I have aimed to be likable my whole life. Like, that's been the sum total of my energy in the world was like, "Please like me." And so sometimes I can bring it around myself and be like, "Wow, like you're something. You're something and you're someone. And so people aren't going to like it."
But like, that's my goal. I've been trying to do that, so it can help me to…. So, I'm not really answering your RSD question. It probably is, though because if I'm able to pull all of these mental resources in, in the moment, I'm probably not spinning out at quite the same rate as other people might be.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so the big like, kind of one of, like, the litmus tests that I use is so for normative rejection sensitivity, right? Which this is like makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, it's proportional to the criticism. For RSD it's out of balance, right? So, like, your ability… it does sounds like it stings and then you have an ability to come in and self-soothe. And then, like, yeah, how long does that process take till you've released it and it's not like, in the back of your head?
AMANDA DIEKMAN: It can be as quick as a kind of a like five minute about that-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my God.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: …that really hurts.
MEGAN NEFF: That sounds pretty nice. Okay [CROSSTALK 00:56:14]-
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I'll go swing or something like that, like some kind of intense body movement and it'll move through. Sometimes it takes a couple of hours. But I can usually flesh it out with some really vigorous play. I usually have to get really immersed in like some other part of me in order to release it, yeah. Definitely a playful self yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I've been experimenting with like, reducing how I'm on social media, or I have played around with just leaving, but I don't think I will. But partly for exactly what you said about like, the mental real estate of I don't want that being the thing in my head. But your experience does sound a bit different than mine in regards to like, how long it lingers. I do a lot of that self-talk, too. But it's like, I have to keep doing it because it'll keep coming back. And so the releasing takes a little bit longer for me.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. That sounds hard.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting, I've actually seen a lot of autistic advocates leave. And I am not at all surprised. I understand. And ADHD advocates. A lot of us have, I think, kind of a short lifespan in the advocacy space, which I think is really sad. And I think it's really understandable.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I agree, I agree. Something I'm wrestling and struggling with right now, too, is like, the way that privilege intersects with all of this. And it feels like so inescapably true that my privilege is a large part of what enables me to be the advocate that I am because of all of the supports that I'm able to put in place for myself to show up this way. And also that that is then making the message itself more difficult for people to hear because it is wrapped in my own privilege. And yet, I don't want to not do it because I think of all of the people who are saying, "You're the only one saying this stuff, we need you to keep on going."
And it's not that I'm only doing it for others, it also comes out of me and an alignment there. But it's a complex picture to sit with. Like, if someone was less privileged than I am, they wouldn't be able to withstand the challenge of being this kind of advocate and so people are leaving, and so then we're losing those voices in those spaces. And yet, I can't be the only voice on this or the message is going to get very convoluted by my own privilege.
MEGAN NEFF: No, I love that you bring in that lens of privilege because that absolutely intersects in so many profound ways. And yeah, like I was sharing my experience with someone with a ton of privilege, most specifically white privilege, and I think that it is like, yeah, when I look at particularly trans autistic advocates and BIPOC autistic advocates, like the level of risk they take, and just the crap they have to deal with, the terrible, terrible stuff they have to deal with. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate the work of the people who are out there. Yeah, and I feel a lot of sadness when they ultimately, many of them often have to leave for their safety or their well-being. And I think that says a lot about where we are in the movement and where we are in society, yeah,
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I agree. And as my children move into some more vulnerable identities, that also makes me less and less able to kind of embody the transparency that I want to have in protection. So, there's also different roles that we need to occupy for the vulnerable people in our lives.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, absolutely. I asked Patrick to take a reel down previously because I was like, "This doesn't feel safe." Because it was like a reel where I share a lot of my identities and like, we're a very neuro queer family. I was like, "I've gotten one too many death threats around this, so can we take that off?" And it is, especially, when you're thinking about vulnerability of family. Yeah, gosh, this just felt heavy, Amanda. I just like felt a wave of heaviness.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I feel that too. I feel that too. And I think that maybe it's not RSD, right? It's like, there's nothing out of proportion here. Like, this is a very proportionate reaction to the incredible risk of being alive today in the intersection of, yeah, like you said, like neuro queerness. Like, it's not safe. And even those of us with tremendous privilege are still feeling just the acuteness of the unsafety. And that tells you, like you said before, like, of course, anybody who is embodying even more vulnerable identities, it just becomes unbearable.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I feel like I'm wanting to transition us either to the end or to like, back but I'm also realizing… like, I'm feeling the heaviness of this and like, how forced of a transition that feels in this moment.
Yeah, I want to say I really appreciate the work you do because I know, I actually saw like a pretty, pretty big creator in the ADHD world, like, criticize the summit that I was a part of. And I think it was actually because of an infographic I made that went viral. And then like, they were completing it with permissive parenting, which is a really shallow understanding of low demand parenting. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." Like, it made me really thankful for the work you do, just realizing how I'm sure you get a lot of people who are like getting a two-second bird's eye view of what you do and making a ton of assumptions.
And I've had so many people who typically are on my email list, and they've heard about your resources who are like, "Thank you so much. Amanda's work has changed our family's life." So, I really, really appreciate that you're showing up even though it is a risk to our safety, and it does take a lot of spoons and a lot of our resources.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I saw yesterday somebody put up the book cover on autism inclusivity. And I was like, "What do people think about this?" And my heart just dropped. I was like, "Oh, God, like, this could be anything." You know? Like, because that space can be, it's gray and also they can really be harsh.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yes.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: And it was mostly positive. But yeah, it does feel really hard. Like, I want people to get this message. And yet, every time there's just a world of people who are going to misunderstand and I do get a lot about permissive parenting, like a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And I'm trying to recover permissive parenting.
I wrote a piece… I'll send it to you if you're interested in about, like, why I even question, I'd be curious from, like, you've read so much research is like, whether the original research even found that permissive parenting has the lowest or the worst outcomes? Like, I even wonder and I haven't gone back. I only didn't know if I would have the skills to deconstruct it. But just whether or not that was actually just capturing neurodivergent parenting, even then, that people that, like, the other two, they only gave three categories, right? So, everybody fell into something. And so anybody who was, and I looked at all the measures, and stuff of like how they, and equality with your children was one of the key differentiators between authoritative and permissive, and that no matter what, if indeed it was capturing neurodivergent parents back then, then they were never going to score as well on the standardized testing and the markers of success that were generated in the 60s.
MEGAN NEFF: It's really interesting. I'm not sure that's a factor. I personally do still think the research around permissive parenting and like how that impacts children and children's mental health and self-efficacy, like I do believe in that research, but I don't believe low demand parenting is permissive parenting. So, I think that's where I would tease it out slightly differently because part of what's the classic definition of permissive parenting is kind of that level of, well, okay, we are very much diverging.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: We are, we're way off, we're way off.
MEGAN NEFF: So, Amanda, you've got fantastic resources. I know people and families really benefited from them. Tell us where people can find you, if they want to connect with you. I don't know if you're still doing one-on-one coaching or if it's mostly group coaching, but tell our listeners where to find you.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: I would love to connect. The best places to find me giving things away and sharing with the world is on social media through Instagram and Facebook. I'm Low Demand Amanda, Low Demand Amanda. And also I have a quiz on my website called Why Are Things So Hard? That can help get a sense of what you might be up against if you're a parent and you're trying to figure out, yeah, that question like, why do I feel like I'm drowning?
And then one next step that you can take to begin to get either to start floating or to get a life raft out there in the deep end. I also love to share in in groups in deeper ways about this method and about learning how to take care of ourselves, and caring for neurodivergent parents is a real passion point of mine right now.
So, I'm running group coaching. And I'm just starting in the next month a mastermind group that's going over six months with live retreats where I can get off of the computer and into real face-to-face connection with other people and really designed around deep care for neurodivergent moms in particular. So, I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to, like, what my real deep purpose is in the public space.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. And I love that you're incorporating embodied work every time I meet with you. And though it's all been over Zoom, like you have an embodied feel to you. So, I'm not at all surprised to hear you're hosting embodied retreats. I worked for about a year or a year and a half over an autistic moms group. That was like one of the highlights of my month because it is really rare to find a space where we're moms and we're not talking about our autistic children, we're talking about our experience. I love that you're leaning into that right now because there's so much need for spaces for neurodivergent parents.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: Yeah, I would say like people find me in the world if you are a drowning mom thinking, why am I messing this all up? Like, you're my people because you're not, but the game is rigged. So, we're going to start, like, to change the roles.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yes. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for coming on. I think sometime we'll have to have you on to talk about the work you actually do, which is like low demand parenting and caring for neurodivergent parents. So, if we do, I know people have been asking for parenting episodes. So, if we do a parenting episode, we might have you back on if you're willing. But thank you so much for being our representative autistic person without ADHD.
AMANDA DIEKMAN: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
MEGAN NEFF: So, new episodes are out every Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. And you can like, download, subscribe, and share. Thank you so much and goodbye.
