Episode 23: Challenging Stereotypes About Autism and Narcissism

Show Notes:

Autism and narcissism can sometimes get lumped together in conversations, but despite there being some seemingly overlapping traits, it is important to not generalize all people with narcissistic traits as individuals with a narcissistic personality disorder.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk about the stereotypes, misconceptions, and misunderstandings surrounding autism and narcissism, as well as the traits that are often perceived to go with them.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand how social media, a more polarized society with low tolerance for disagreements, and privilege have impacted and shaped the use of the terms Autistic and narcissistic.
2. Identify some of the ways and reasons that Autistic individuals may face challenges in perceiving the world from someone else's perspective, leading to misunderstandings in relationships and conflict in the workplace.
3. Learn how communication styles, the ways autistic individuals find connection, and alexithymia can lead to mislabeling autistic people as unempathetic or narcissistic.

Both diagnoses are complex and multifaceted, so join us in unraveling some of the complexities of narcissism and autism.

*DISCLAIMER: Due to the limited time available in a podcast episode, we were only able to scratch the surface of the many nuances and conversations surrounding these complex diagnoses. We also want to emphasize that there are a lot of people with narcissistic personality disorder who are doing the work to get insight into it, so we don’t have the intention of putting down anyone who has received this diagnosis.

This is only a glimpse into the topic, so we encourage your questions and comments and will try to address them when we are able to do so or in a future podcast episode. You can reach out to [email protected].

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Transcript

DR. MEGAN NEFF: So, Patrick, earlier this week, you sent me a screenshot of a bunch of DMs asking that we do an episode on narcissism versus autism. And when I saw those DMs, I had a mixed reaction, both like, "Yes, I know we need to go there. And B, like, I don't want to go there."

But I know we need to because this has also been the biggest request I've gotten for a Venn diagram, which I haven't actually created. And I'll unpack that later. So, people are really interested in this topic of what is narcissistic personality disorder? What is autism? So, that's what we're going to talk about today.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And I could actually experience your experience through your responses via text message window when you sent them.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, what was that like for you?

PATRICK CASALE: It just felt like I was attuned to how you were feeling. And I also just kind of was thinking about how often it gets mentioned in the same sentence, especially, on social media. And I know that just you've been using the term narcissism, narcissistic personality, etc. Right now is, like, a pretty hot topic.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I think that's why it feels like a really hard conversation to know how to enter because there's so much misinformation on so many things. And I want to, like, provide so many disclosures, or caveats, or footnotes because everything we're talking about like co-occurring personality disorder and autism, narcissism, theory of mind, and all the things we'll get into, like, everyone of those deserves a really hefty footnote.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, and I know that we're also doing this as kind of like an introduction to the topic. So, we're going to use that as a blanket overarching statement right now, is that this is a 30-minute conversation, this is a hot topic, this is going to potentially create some controversy. We know this, and we want to do this as intentionally as we can, and we will also come back and do more episodes surrounding same topic. Is that fair to say?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: That is so fair to say, thank you for saying that. Yeah, yeah. First, let's spin out like a little bit on narcissism. I'm curious, your thoughts. I think this is a tricky diagnosis. Okay, first, though, one thing I'm seeing is an increase of people quickly calling other people narcissists. And narcissistic abuse is a very real thing. And I've worked with several people who have been on the other end of that and it is terrible.

And I am also seeing this cultural tendency where people are kind of knee-jerk reaction, "Oh, that's a narcissist." Or, "That's narcissistic abuse." Where I think that is, you know, we talked about misinformation a while back, I think around narcissism and how quickly people are calling other people in their lives narcissist, I would say that's an area where I'm seeing a lot of misinformation. First of all, let me just check in, do you agree with that assessment? Do you disagree?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. And this comment might get some slack, too. But slack, that's a whole word, slack. I don't know. People may not be happy with this comment as well. But I think that this is like social media driven in a lot of ways as well because it's, again, we talked about like, TikTok diagnoses, how you and I are both on board with self-diagnosis, we both believe that it is a valid tool. And I also think that there are a lot of content creators right now who are, specifically, talking about narcissistic abuse, narcissists, in general. And you're right, narcissistic abuse is a completely valid experience. And it's a very traumatic one for the person who's on the other side of it. However… not everyone who exhibits one tendency, or trait, or characteristic is then therefore a narcissist.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Right, right.

PATRICK CASALE: And, I think that's the murky stuff, right?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yes, absolutely. And I mean, you know, Pew Research has looked at this. This was before the pandemic and before everything that's happened socioeconomically in the last, you know, four or five years, they showed that we're living in the most polarized state in the US ideologically than ever before. I cannot imagine what the numbers are now.

What happens when we are in a polarized culture is as humans, we just tend to become more reactionary. And I think part of what I see happening on a cultural level is we are losing our tolerance to disagree with people, we're losing our tolerance to be uncomfortable by someone else's view. Like, if we're in disagreement, then you are X to me. And there's this tendency then to project onto the person we disagree with, like, character traits, and or diagnoses like narcissism, or the other… I think the two personality disorders that are kind of, I would say, misused in this way are borderline personality disorder and narcissism.

PATRICK CASALE: I agree 100%. And I know we could go down that road and do an entire, like, hour-long episode about the projection from a clinical standpoint as well. And I know we want to keep it-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:06:15] the same topic.

PATRICK CASALE: This is a tread lightly conversation, I just think that somebody-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: It is, it is.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:06:21].

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, are you nervously sweating right now like me?

PATRICK CASALE: I can, like, withstand commentary for the most part. So, without it really [CROSSTALK 00:06:36]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Interesting. For me, it's like, I guess the commentary, but for me, it's also about the saying something, you know, I am more ADHD in my language use than autistic, so often I'd say things like, that's not what I meant. And then it's the anxiety of living with that comment being out there out of context and wishing I would have said it differently, yeah.

But I think you're kind of writing this in. Okay. So, narcissism and autism. This question comes up a lot of either people who have perhaps been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, but they think they're autistic, or I think a lot of the comments you get, and also comments I get are from partners of, like, potentially autistic… often what I see, I'm curious what you see, it's often heteronormative partnerships and where it's the woman reaching out about her husband. Is that what you also have mostly?

PATRICK CASALE: That is what I see for the most part. And those are the DMs that we get, "Please help me help my husband. Please help me better understand him. Please explain the differences between the two because I think that my husband's autistic, but he's very narcissistic." Or something to that degree. And I've heard that the two go hand in hand, is what I also hear.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, I actually have a draft of a Venn diagram. I didn't publish it because I didn't have the psychological strength. Well, actually, it's not just about that, I think to make a Venn diagram, I'd have to go revert to a lot of the unfortunate stereotypes about autism. And so I have complex feelings around that because I'd be comparing like theory of mind to narcissistic, like, kind of, I can't remember the clinical term off the top of my head, but that tendency to, it's all about me tendency in narcissism, to kind of live in your own world. So, that's the other reason I haven't made a Venn diagram is it falls back on these very stereotypical pathological ways of talking about autism to compare the traits. And I think that's why I've steered clear of the conversation.

However, like, these autistic things are stereotypes for a reason. And to me, that's, I think, where the conversation gets anxiety-inducing and gets complicated, of there are autistic people out there who struggle with theory of mind, and just to define theory of mind. It's that tendency of like, seeing the world through someone else's lens. It's been reconceptualized by Milton and the double empathy problem of autistic people tend to do better with theory of mind with other autistic people, allistic people do better with it with other allistic people.

But I think even…. I don't know how to say this, Patrick, I don't know how to say this. I really like the double empathy conceptualization. That's my experience of theory of mind. It's interesting, I've definitely seen and worked with autistic people where that classic definition of theory of mind is a struggle of like perceiving the world as someone else's do. I think that is more associated with alexithymia than autism.

So, when someone is autistic and has severe alexithymia, they tend to be very external-oriented thinkers versus internal-oriented thinkers. Meaning, rather than think about like their internal experience, they're often thinking about external factors.

Someone who doesn't think a lot about their own internal experience, probably isn't going to think a whole lot about someone else's internal experience. Okay, I'm going to stop there for a second because I feel like that was a bit.

PATRICK CASALE: No, I think that's a great conceptualization. And I think you're right. So, if you're not thinking of your own internal experience, it's really hard to place yourself into the position of someone else and to think about their own internal experience, right?

And if we're thinking about alexithymia, we've done an episode on it, and that episode, obviously, doesn't do the topic justice because, it's, again, just an hour, but the reality of like, if I'm struggling on my day-to-day with my own internal experience, and really being able to connect to it, does that then therefore make me narcissistic? And the answer is, no, absolutely no. Like, NO!

DR. MEGAN NEFF: But it can feel that way to the partner, the partner, particularly. So, there's this really unfortunate term called Cassandra Syndrome. It's very pathological, it's essentially the experience, and again, typically, heteronormative partnership they're talking about here, where a woman, I think, originally, it's like a woman goes to therapy, and she thinks there's so much wrong with her. And what gets unpacked because partly, her partner's telling her like you're too emotionally needy, and all these things, and then we get to unpack that a lot of these women were married to undiagnosed autistic men. So, again, it's a really pathologizing way of thinking about it.

But also, like, there are a lot of people whose experience is one of significant confusion when they're married to an undiagnosed autistic person. And I would say, someone who's undiagnosed and not curious, right? Like, if you're autistic, and you're curious, you're curious about your experience, you're curious about your partner's experience, that's a whole different story.

Typically, the people who are contacting me, probably the people contacting you, their partner is not curious. Again, that external-oriented thinking is probably really high. But there's also a lot of defensiveness around even considering something like autism. And so there's not space. I mean, we've talked about the metaphor of constriction versus openness. There's no openness in the dyad to talk about what's happening.

So, I do see it in those experiences, where for the partner who's… and sometimes if, you know, like the partner is autistic as well. ike it's an autistic/autistic partnership, but this is still happening, it's like the only way to exist with that person is to live in their subjectivity. And what I mean by that is to live within the like, framework, and Lthe rules, and the world of the partner who is not as curious and struggles to have insight into their internal experience. And that can be a really hard way to have a relationship. It's also very similar to narcissism, the only world that exists tends to be within the narcissist's subjectivity.

And again, someone with NPD, can get treatment and like, I don't want to say that this is like, and a person with narcissism who has good insight could also work on this. But classically speaking, is to exist in the other person's subjectivity. The reasons are totally different. But the experience could be felt very similarly for the partner. Could that make sense?

PATRICK CASALE: It makes perfect sense. And I think that's an important part. That's probably one of the most important things to hone in on, right? How is what exactly what you just said, the experience can be similar, but the intention or the reason is different, right? Like, so that's something to really think about, is the experiences can look almost like mirroring one another if you're coming at it from a certain perspective, but the reality is there's foundationally different reasons for what's happening in the experience. And I think that's really important. And I think that gets overlooked, probably, the most often.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, let's talk about other things then because you said, "I have the Venn diagram, created it, but publishing it would take too much psychological energy and labor." Most likely because of the responses I imagine in the comments and you would have to be very available to it.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, those Venn diagrams go viral, and I don't want to be promoting stereotypes about autism, so I don't know how to make it. And, yeah, I don't know how to make it in a way that, like, I guess I could do a star and an asterisks next to each trait. But I really think the reasons they look similar is the case of autism with severe alexithymia. So, that's a hard thing to nuance in a graphic. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to do that. Because the other one that comes up is a lack of empathy, right? Like, that's one of the reasons someone seems narcissistic.

So, again, lack of empathy, there's been brain studies on this. They looked at brain scans, there's a kind of a, I won't get into the design of the study, but essentially, they did brain scans. And then when they controlled for alexithymia, so controlled for means when they separated the autistic people with alexithymia from the autistic people without alexithymia, they did find that autistic people with alexithymia had lower activity in the empathy regions when a loved one was experiencing pain. For autistic people without alexithymia, it was the same as allistic people. So, it's alexithymia, not autism that can impact empathy regions in the brain.

So, where was I going? Empathy. The other reason besides alexithymia an autistic partner might not be as empathetic as an allisic partner might want is because of communication, right? Like, I'm not a mind reader, I rely on explicit communication. If my partner's upset with something but hasn't told me why? I mean, I'm pretty good at picking up patterns and cues. And I'll usually ask, but I'm trained to do that. So, it also can be a communication difference of, especially, if one partner is really indirect in their communication, but they're expecting their autistic partner to be able to pick up on indirect communication, that could show up as my partner has no empathy, when really, that's a communication issue.

PATRICK CASALE: And I imagine that right there is probably the crux of so much of what we're talking about, is these miscommunication styles in so many ways because in partnerships, in general, whether it's allistic/autistic, autistic/autistic, the communication that's being missed and not explicitly being asked for, or communicated, or being able to say, this is what I need to be able to communicate in terms of our relationship or process, what you're saying. I mean, if you're not a trained clinician, these are skills that people often do not have, or possess, or are able to articulate.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, another communication one that can look like narcissism is how we connect. So, for example, a lot of autistic people, we connect by sharing stories. So, Patrick, if you were like, this stressful thing happened to me, blah, blah, blah. I might be like, "Oh, my gosh, one time this thing happened to me." And like, that's a natural way for us to connect.

For someone outside of our culture, it looks like, "Oh, Megan Anna just made it about her." Versus what I'm really communicating is like, oh, I can understand that. I think I can understand the emotion you're experiencing because I had something similar.

Now, what I've learned to do is the dance back. This is where like, Patrick, if you were sharing something, I maybe share a story about a similar experience, what I've learned to do is an explicitly bring it back to you, be like, "You know, so I kind of felt like this when that happened to me, do you feel something similar?" Because I've learned adding that explicit, kind of, dance back is communicating. I'm sharing this because but I'm wanting to center your experience. I'm not trying to center it.

But that's kind of a sophisticated thing to learn. I think I learned that through masking, through training. There's a lot of autistic people where they don't do that dance back. So, the people in their lives think whenever I share anything, they just end up making it about them.

PATRICK CASALE: Right? And in reality, what you're trying to convey is like, I have experienced something similar and I do, in fact, have empathy for you. And this is my way of sharing that I can connect with your experience.

And I think, again, so you just mentioned it again, but the training, and the intentionality, and the curiosity here are, you know, we're very privileged to be a percentage of human beings who not only have higher education, but are trained clinicians, and are trained in behavior, and are trained in tracking, and attunement, and inferring.

And I think that for a lot of people listening to this episode who are not trained, right, clinicians, it's so easy to miss the mark and then to take it really personally. Whether it be via communication, or, you know, if you feel like your partner, or your friend, or your family member's always centering their experiences, or they don't have empathy for your problem, or your struggle, that's going to feel pretty crappy regardless of the reason. And it's really easy to put language to it nowadays and say, "Well, it's because they don't have empathy. They don't care. They're narcissistic. They don't care about my experience at all." And that perfectly well could not be the case.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. And it also might be the case.

PATRICK CASALE: Right [CROSSTALK 00:21:11] this conversation is so complicated because I think you could say that for almost everything we kind of denote, right?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, not all autistic people are awesome humans, just in the sense that, like, not all humans are awesome humans. Maybe there is an autistic person who does, again, because they're external oriented thinkers and all these things, they do, like, struggle to think about… worries in partners a lot because I think a lot of our request comes from partners, their partner's experience. And maybe like, we haven't even talked about characters and values. Like, maybe they are lower on the empathy scale for other reasons or the compassion scale, or maybe they're narcissistic, right? Like these things can co-occur. That's another misinformation thing I'm seeing a lot is where people are saying you can't be both autistic and have a personality disorder. I think someone put that on an infographic. And that's just not true.

Before you diagnose personality disorder, you have to rule out what are considered the neurodevelopmental conditions or any other reason that would, like, better explain the symptoms you're seeing. So, in the case of someone who's autistic, if they are having symptoms beyond what autism and I would say, beyond what traumatized autism could explain, then you might also diagnose the personality disorder.

And if we conceptualize personality disorders as kind of broadly speaking, a vulnerable neurology paired with an invalidating environment, of course, we're going to be more likely to develop personality disorders. And that's also well documented that we do have higher rates of personality disorder. And I don't think that's all misdiagnosis. I think it's because we have a very vulnerable neurology and we're miss attuned to for much of our life. And so it makes sense that we develop these at higher rates. So, an autistic person could also have narcissistic personality disorder.

PATRICK CASALE: One, I love the way you just framed that vulnerable neurology-invalidating environment. So, you said, I'm getting my words right.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yep, yep.

PATRICK CASALE: That's so well said, to conceptualize and to think about it that way. And also this conversation is clear as mud for most people listening, right? Because it's like, this could be true, this could be true, this could not be true. And that's really what we are trying to kind of articulate to our listeners is like, this is a really complicated conversation and the labels that get thrown around are really damaging. And it can be really, really painful for people when they are used because someone has been hurt or because it feels like this is what society says about this person if they exemplify A, B, C, D characteristics.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Is it okay if I shift context a little bit because there's another context I've gotten this question, which is work.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: So, this was the first time that I thought, "Oh, maybe I should make a Venn diagram." It was someone contacting me that was saying, "Can you please make a Venn diagram?" Because, like, I think they were maybe fired from their job and being accused of being narcissistic when really what was happening was autistic communication, right?

And again, like things like hierarchy, that if I'm coming into a meeting, I actually had this experience, I had this experience in my internship with my supervisor. I think he didn't know what to do with me because I didn't perceive the hierarchy in the way I think he thought I should. And he in a review called me like overconfident or something. That sort of, like if I have a good idea in a meeting, even if I'm not high in the hierarchy, I'm going to share it because it's a good idea. And a lot of autistic people are like that.

But that could look like subverting hierarchy, and the narcissistic, and other, like communication traits can look like that in the workplace. And then that can lead to workplace discrimination. So, that's another context that this can show up. And we're understanding, like, no, that's autistic communication, that's not narcissism, would actually be really helpful.

PATRICK CASALE: That is really helpful. And I imagine a lot of you who are listening have experienced a workplace where maybe that has been a situation, or you found yourself in a relationship where that was the perception of you because of how you communicate, get your ideas across.

I know, I probably have done that a million times in, like, meetings where it was just all fluff and stupid bullshit. And I probably was just like, "Hey, what about this idea? Like, what about this thing? Can we just implement this?" I know, I've actually said that out loud. Like, "Can we just be done with this meeting and like, implement this thing?"

Because we're sitting there for two hours going around in circles about nothing. And that wasn't really much more about energy preservation at that time. And if you want me to be here nine to 10 hours a day, I need to be able to work and function to the best of my abilities. And so I know I've certainly communicated in ways where I'm like, this is just what I'm experiencing in the moment.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And look at you, right? Like, you're a tall white man, who if you're like coming in with that energy, I could be like, "Oh, my gosh, Patrick's such a like, so full of himself." Right? Like, that's an easy narrative to adopt if you don't know you and understand you.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I've heard that narrative from several of my close friends right now who used to be in my supervision group, where we'd be like, you know, sharing feelings, sharing ideas, and then I'm like, "Can we just get to the point?" [CROSSTALK 00:27:16]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so dismissiveness. This is actually, sorry, I totally cut you off.

PATRICK CASALE: No, it's okay. Dismissiveness, sorry, I just cut you off.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Okay, I'm dismissing you. No, but just like, I don't value emotions in the same way a lot of allistic people do. And so I do know I'm more prone to dismiss them because they seem illogical to me. Like, now that I understand the science in emotions, I actually care about them a little bit more. And someone in a relationship with a narcissist who's not in treatment doesn't have insight into the experience of, sorry, I shouldn't say with a narcissist. We use a lot with identity language, but I think, for that, I think with narcissistic personality disorder, I feel like it's a more empathetic way of communicating.

Okay, rabbit trail. There's going to be a lot of invalidation and dismissal in a relationship like that. And I think, again, especially, for an autistic person with alexithymia, as soon as emotions come up, if that's really important for the other person, they could feel deeply dismissed. Like, I know I've dismissed people when I've… especially, because I can get kind of irritated of like, no, just look at this logically. Which I now realize that's really dismissive, that's not effective communication. If you're trying to move toward resolution, you've got to, like, validate the feelings, and then maybe that creates capacity for logic. Whereas I would come at it the flip, I want to start with logic to understand the emotions.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, but I think the big takeaway, right? Is like, whether we both have just kind of shared examples is probably how we have dismissed people in our circles professionally, or colleagues, etc., not intentionally, just because it was like we need to cut through, we need to use the logic, we need to get to the point, we need to move on with whatever the case may be, whatever situation we're in.

But we both probably also felt remorse and regret for dismissing that person's idea or thought, or statement. And that I think shows that's where you start to build this sense of self too, of like, okay, I care very deeply about this relationship, that's my fuckup. Like, I will try harder to try to give and take a little bit in terms of communication when we're in these environments.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I think you might be a better human than me because I don't all… like I mean, yeah, when I care about the person and when it's a genuine like I've missed them, like, I deeply care. So, like, my core family and my clients, like, that's really important. But when I'm in a conversation and I feel like the other person is not being logical, I actually don't like walk away from that conversation and be like, "Oh my gosh, I feel so bad." I'm like, "Damn emotions." Okay, not always.

So, I just want to like humanize, I don't always walk away from those encounters. Sometimes I'm, like, irritated at the other person. I'm like, "Why doesn't your brain work more like mine?" And I'll talk myself through that, right? Like, to not stay that kind of, that sounds really bitter, but I want to be honest about the fact that I have those moments, that is part of my experience.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I certainly don't walk away from every one of those situations, like deeply remorseful, or full of, like, resentment towards myself, or self-deprecating because I do think sometimes, and maybe I'm wrong, is when you say like, "Damn it, why doesn't your brain work like mine?" It's like, because of how hard we often have to work to feel seen and validated, or understood. And for me, that's where that like, "Damn it, why doesn't your brain work like mine?" That moment is where that often comes up is when I feel misunderstood. Like, where I feel missed, where I feel unseen, in terms of like, in any capacity, honestly.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: It's this really like, intense moment I experience where I have this feeling and I see this a lot with folks of like, if I could just inject my logic into your brain, you could see it the way I see it, then this whole misunderstanding would be cleared up. So, then I can kind of dig into like, I want you to see it how I see it not because… I'm not in a like power dynamic of like, I need you to see the world through my… but like, I think I'm seeing something. And usually, it's like a relational dynamic, where I'm like, I see what's happening here. Like, your stuff over there is kicking in with my stuff over here. And if we can put it in a conceptual framework, we cannot understand it.

And so I'm trying really hard to inject that understanding into the other person. I'm even realizing the word inject, like, that's very violent sounding, right? But I have those. It's almost like a panic moment of like, you just need to see what I see because then we can move clearly through it.

Like, typically, I have enough regulation skill that I can kind of walk myself through that, but I could see how that panic moment could come across as really dominating. Especially, if someone doesn't have insight into, like, what's happening for them in that moment.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. I think this happens. I'm diverging just a little bit. But I think those panic moments for me happen most often when I'm in like a medical provider's office and like, they just dismiss what I'm saying. And I get so like, immediately frustrated, and I feel so invalidated, and dismissed, and I feel unseen. But then I shut down most of the time. I don't often like, I'm just like [CROSSTALK 00:33:12]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Me too.

PATRICK CASALE: And it's so much shame-inducing in a way of like, I just can't feel understood here. Like, that's really what happens to me.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I would say that's what happens to me 90% of the time, and then those few times where I have tried to, like, get my perspective, like, accessible into someone else's head, those don't go well. And then I tend to shut down even more deep in that relationship. So, shutting down just kind of often feels like the better option. I just got a wave of sadness, Patrick. We both shut down when we're feeling dismissed. So, to put it in like nervous system framework, we kind of go freeze mode, maybe fawn mode. For autistic people, they go fight mode. That could look really narcissistic.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. My brain has a couple of thoughts right now as I'm experiencing this heaviness. One, we should probably do an episode on meltdowns and shutdowns.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

PATRICK CASALE: Two, yeah, like polar ends of the spectrum in terms of nervous system reaction, in terms of fight mode versus fawn or freeze mode. And yeah we could certainly look very narcissistic in that way, if that's the reaction in those modes.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I think what I don't want to say, and this is the balance I'm wanting to walk, I don't want to say that autistic people can't be harmful in our relationships. Of course, we can, we're human. I also don't want to say that autistic people are narcissistic, or that every time you see someone with low empathy, you're like, "Oh, they're autistic."

So, walking that line of there's plenty of indecent or not indecent, that feels…. plenty of like, autistic people out there who are not compassionate partners. There's plenty of allistic people out there who are not compassionate partners. There's a lot more going on in our neurology. Our neurology certainly complicates things. Yeah, it's a delicate balancing act to honor both of these, all of the really negative stereotypes around autism. We're also being honest with like, we're not all high empathy and we're not all high empathy all the time.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can't add anything to that other than just saying I thinks that's completely true. And I think that's also, maybe some of the heaviness that we're both experiencing right now is just the stereotypes that a lot of autistic people face and experience, coupled with the fact that people are also people. And although we're more prone to discrimination, and struggle, and a lot of complicated scenarios, that doesn't mean every autistic person [INDISCERNIBLE 00:37:23] character traits, like, that's just the reality, it can't be.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. And I will say, I mean, to bring it back to intersectionality, like, I think this presentation of autism that often gets talked about, and then the stereotypes get created about is often when the autism is intersecting with a lot of privileged identities, which makes sense to me. I'm not sure I can articulate why that makes sense to me. I have thoughts, but I also feel like that's an important part of the conversation, is it really typically is Cishet white men that this conversation revolves around. Not always, but often. It's you, Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE: Thinking of all the Taylor Swift memes of the problem is me right now.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Except you don't fall into that stereotype.

PATRICK CASALE: No, but just like you-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: You're curious, you're curious and you-

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I think that's what we've talked about on almost every episode is like openness and curiosity, right? Like, versus constriction, and just really being curious about an experience. But yeah, I mean, privilege does absolutely shift and shape the lens that we see the world through, too. So…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And I don't think you have to be as curious about the world, about your experience, about other people's experiences when you have a lot of privilege. You got to walk into a room, and like, it takes privilege to not be thinking about what's happening in that room, like, relationally, in other people's minds. You can't do that if you're not safe. And privilege and safety walk hand in hand.

So, actually, okay, this is just coming to me in a moment, but I'm curious about the connection between, like, privilege, curiosity, and, like curiosity of self and curiosity of other.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I mean, if you can walk into the room, and identify, and look the way that I do, you don't really have to think about how the world is impacting everybody else. Because it's not impacting you in the same way, for the most part.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, that scanner doesn't have to be on for your safety.

PATRICK CASALE: No, we could do a whole episode on that too. Heavy conversations create new ideas, so…

DR. MEGAN NEFF: That feels like a tagline, heavy conversations create new ideas-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:40:12]. We're going to start making T-shirts and all sorts of swag for Divergent Conversations.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:40:19].

PATRICK CASALE: So, another idea, that's actually not a bad idea. Okay, my brain is diverging all over the place, which is kind of telling me I don't have much left to give in this conversation. I don't know how you're feeling right now.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I think this is a good time to wrap up. I would love to go dig into the research a little bit more. I'd be curious about people's comments on this episode. And then maybe we could do a follow up episode because yeah, the conversation is really complicated. But I think this is a good starter episode on this topic.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree. I think we try to walk along as best we can. And I guess, when it comes out, depending on how it's reacted to, but I don't feel like one way or another right now, which is usually a good indication that we did our best.

What I will say to everyone listening, is we want your comments and we want your questions. And you can email us your questions, you can email us topics at [email protected]. We aren't really going to check Instagram messages as much just because Megan and I both have too many of those messages coming in in different ways in our lives, and it's just not possible. But if you do have comments, if you do have questions, please send them to us. I mean, we want to address what we can when we feel like we are able to do so. And this is a starter topic. So, we try to use lots of disclaimers, and asterisks, and setting the stage, but that can get missed sometimes, too. So [CROSSTALK 00:42:02]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I have one more asterisk before you do [INDISCERNIBLE 00:42:05].

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: There's also a lot of people out there who do have NPD, who, like, you're doing the work to get insight into it. And so I also realize that this conversation when we're like, "Don't compare us to people with NPD." Like, that can be really pathologizing to people who have NPD and that's another reason why I feel so much complexity around this conversation. So, I do want to add that asterisk out there before we close out.

PATRICK CASALE: So, we're going to have all these asterisks and disclaimers in the show notes, as well as all of the information that we just talked about. So, again, just to start our conversation, and we will revisit it in the future. But we get so many questions and DMs about the topic that it felt important to address sooner than later because we want you all to know that we listen to what you have to say and we know that the conversation is out there to be had. So, just want to name that as well.

So, for everyone listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast, new episodes are out every single Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. We will see you next week.