Episode 21: Taking Up Space: Navigating Social Interactions as a Neurodivergent Individual

Show Notes:

Taking up space and asking for what you need in social settings and relationships can be particularly challenging for Autistic individuals, especially before Autistic diagnosis or discovery.

It is not uncommon for many Autistic people to respond strongly to rejection, and we often work hard to "earn" a place in groups where we are allowed to safely exist by being helpful to others or blending in by dressing or acting in a way that seems "normal" or "acceptable."

Maintaining these actions while constantly paying attention to details can be a painful and exhausting experience.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the concept of taking up social and emotional space in interactions with others, what it felt like for them to balance efforts to belong with sensory overwhelm while they were still masking before Autism discovery, and the benefits of incorporating new ways of socializing and parallel play that honor their needs as autistic humans.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand the importance of Autistic individuals giving themselves permission to socialize in ways that feel comfortable and authentic to them.
2. Hear about Patrick and Dr. Neff's struggles with taking up space and fully expressing themselves, as well as the challenges of showing up authentically in crowded environments, social situations, and even in running their own businesses.
3. Learn about the importance of parallel play, both in social relationships and in connecting with neurodivergent communities, as well as how it provides a unique sense of comfort and understanding, allowing Autistic individuals to be themselves without the pressure to conform to neurotypical norms.

Communicating our needs and creating spaces where we can be understood and accepted is crucial, especially for neurodivergent individuals.

Finding the balance between self-expression and self-preservation can be a lifelong journey, but by honoring your needs and seeking community with individuals who understand and won't put the pressure of neurotypical values around relationships, it's possible to "create space" for yourself.

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Transcript

DR. MEGAN NEFF: So, Patrick, I have had a common life experience that I'm curious if you relate to. I've talked to a lot of, particularly, autistic, also ADHD, but particularly, autistic people who resonate with this idea of taking up less space. I think throughout my whole life until my autism discovery, until I started unmasking, I was pretty conscientious about how to take up less space in rooms. And I'm curious, especially, given you do have some different identities than me, if that is something you relate to?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I relate to it 100%. And my mind immediately almost wants to diverge. And I don't want to diverge just yet, but I want to pin it of like, let's also mention taking up less space can also be a trauma response, too. So, like, if you have experienced childhood trauma then there are probably going to be instances where you are also going to take up less space. But anyway, we'll diverge into that if we get there. I just had that immediate thought.

But yes, the answer is yes. I think it's been a very common experience for me. I think it's still in experience for me, even in this space where I have a following, where I have a presence, where I really tend to shrink back a lot of the time. 

And I also think like social situations, especially, crowded environments, being in school, all of these memories come back where I'm like a wallflower, more or less, and where I feel like, I can't be myself, I can't show up 100%, I can't take up more space, I can't get involved in conversations. And it's been really challenging.

I think, more so recently, I've been able to really embrace who I am and just kind of have acceptance around my personality and just how I show up. But that's only really been the last like, two-ish years of 37 years of life.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that kind of correlates with later in life self-discovery around our divergence. So, that makes sense. Same for me. Like, it was in unmasking and understanding myself that I was like, "Oh, I can take up space." And, "Oh, I'm having…" Okay, I'm having a diverging thought.

I often thought about taking up less space, partly, as a like, autistic trauma response. But I'm also now thinking about it as a protective mechanism from RSD, which I know we're going to talk about later this month. I've got pretty nasty rejection sensitivity dysphoria. And whenever I would take up space in a meeting or a conversation, that would give me so much more to ruminate over, which then would be future suffering and pain as I would ruminate over that. So, partly, I think it was a protective mechanism for my RSD.

PATRICK CASALE: That makes a lot of sense because if you're experiencing RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, you are really hypercritical of yourself and every action that you take, and every interaction, how you show up, how people are going to judge you, how people are going to respond. And imagine you shrink back in those situations to avoid the potential fallout/pain/traumatic experience. And like, really, you know, you're really cognizant of that too.

But in those moments, right, when you're really cognizant of that, what is that doing for the person's experience? Like in the room? Like, how are you experiencing, like, for yourself in whatever meeting or situation you're referencing? Like, when you're so vigilant about how you show up, like, what's your experience like in those moments?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: My experience?

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I mean, that's where it's like scripted… I mean, it's a very disconnected, dissociated experience because the scripting, the, like, we've talked about this on past episodes where I'll go very analytical.

And I have like two analytical modes, one that's pretty actually organically embedded. Like, when we're in middle of, kind of, a live conversation, and I'm bringing in analytical thinking that feels more embodied. But there's a different kind of analytical, like, thinking through what am I going to say? Rehearsing it in my mind, and then saying it like, that's a much more dissociated experience.

PATRICK CASALE: And that dissociated experience is the one that is then therefore going to lead to probably an increased in depressive mood as well and this disconnection from self. And I think that those are the times that take a lot of mental energy and cause a lot of mental anguish as well.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely-

PATRICK CASALE: Sorry, go ahead.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: No, go ahead.

PATRICK CASALE: When you were thinking about, like, this topic, taking up less space, you know? Protecting yourself, thinking back to like, you know, adolescence Megan Anna, at that point in time, what's that looking like? Like, in terms of how do I protect myself? How do I notice this is kind of showing up in the world?

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I think it's interesting because even as I was talking about this, I was like, "Oh, there's some instances where this doesn't feel fully true." Like, in, not so much adolescence, but college. Like, I was a really colorful dresser, if you know anthropology, which was like, very big, and like the 2000s. Like, I loved kind of colorful, vibrant, hippie clothing. So, in some ways, it's interesting, I actually wasn't, like, that's an activity that actually takes up space or brings attention to yourself.

But it was not theoretical, theatrical. It was kind of a theatrical. I think in high school it looked like was being really helpful. So, this was kind of tied to my fundamentalism, but things like, you know, at lunchtime finding the kids who are eating alone and eating with them versus trying to take up space or even just trying to integrate into, like, the cafeteria lunch.

So, in that instance, it looks like figuring out how it could be helpful and that was my plugging for social situations because then I felt… so actually this is the metaphor I use more, is earning my currency. Like, how do I say this? I want to like pay for the space I take up. So, I was always thinking through currency.

So, in high school and in spaces my currency for the space I took up was by being helpful. And this gets kind of complicated but in kind of heteronormative spaces with cis men, my currency became flirting. So, I actually became, like, kind of skilled at banter and flirtation, especially, if I could tell that that was going to get me currency. So, it was more about figuring out what is the currency so that I deserve the space I occupy. I realize how weird and messed up that sounds.

PATRICK CASALE: I'm thinking about a couple of things, one of which is like, the school cafeterias were seriously some of the most like, overwhelming sensory experiences I've ever had in my life, and probably where I felt the most uncomfortable in a lot of parts of my life too, where you walk in, and it's so loud, and there are people everywhere, and I don't know where to sit, and I don't know who to sit with, and I don't want to, like, stand out, and I don't want to be bullied. But I want to have a group of people who feel like, at least I can eat around. So, that is first and foremost comes to mind.

Then the currency example is interesting. It's almost like my mind almost immediately when you said like, I would be helpful, almost goes to like this people-pleasing mentality that a lot of us have of like, if I'm able to be a yes person or really be adaptable, and constantly helpful for people, I will take up less space, I'll be less noticeable, I'll be less of a target in a way. And it'll ensure that I create some sense of safety for myself. And then I also feel useful. Like, that's helpful too for us, right? Like, I think most people want to feel needed or useful in some capacity.

But the interesting one is definitely the insight into the acknowledgement around the flirtation and banter to be like, if I do this, I can at least be comfortable like in this setting or situation. Because I think when we talk about like taking up space, a lot of people are probably thinking about like, personality, how you show up, how you, like, are kind of front and center or not. And I think it's so much more than that. It is like, how do I adapt to my surroundings so that I can feel comfortable in them or at least comfortable enough to get through the next experience, or hour, or transition, or whatever it is.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I like that shift to think about, like, kind of how do we get comfortable in a space? And yeah, for me, the only way I could get comfortable in a space was, yeah, if I had earned the space I occupied. And so this space is where I think about being really uncomfortable was where I was useless. Like, I didn't have something concrete to point to of like, this is why I deserve to be here. I'm realizing I'm using laughter. I wonder if that's a defense, that's interesting.

Yeah, I mean, it is a really sad way to move through the world. It's a hard way to move through the world.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that you're analyzing yourself on air.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: It's what we do, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Megan and I just had some tough conversations previously. And I think our energy is experiencing that shift. But it's interesting because I also think that when we allow ourselves to jump into that we become more vulnerable in terms of like, what are we experiencing if we're processing it in the moment? So, it's interesting.

But yeah, it's a sad way to move through the world, it's a painful way to move through the world. The word that always comes to mind for me is exhausting. Like, it's exhausting. I use the word torturous a lot, I don't know why. But I think that it describes my experiences in what we're talking about.

I'm losing my voice. I want to talk about outfits. You've mentioned this several times on episodes about how, like, you went from colorful, when I use your language, like hippie-ish clothing to like, lots of black, right? And like, lots of gray.

And my experience has actually shifted completely, where I think up until maybe a year to two years ago if you looked at my closet everything was black, gray, or blue. And my wife was just like, "Are you ever going to wear a color? Like, how do you feel about a pattern? Like, what do you think about brightness." And I'm like, "Oh, that makes me feel so uncomfortable." Because for me, that does feel like you are taking up more space. If I'm out socializing and I'm wearing like a bright pink shirt, then people are going to… their eyes are going to be on me more than if I'm just wearing a black T-shirt. And I think that's always been a part of my, like a precautionary measure not safety-wise, necessarily, but socially comforting because I don't want to attract attention in any sense of the world.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: So, okay, first of all, I think there's a lot of factors in that. But one association I'm having right now is I wonder how much gender norms plays into that? For me, by dressing really feminine and having clothes that like are easily complimented, in some ways it did make me stand out more. Like, people knew I was like the kind of hippie dresser. But in other ways being really feminine, like I wore a lot of dresses, a lot of skirts, makes me less intimidating in spaces. I wear a lot of black, I wear a lot of more masculine clothing. Like, there's a, I think a sort of empowerment that I own now that I wasn't able to own back then.

So, I almost wonder if shifting toward more, like, coded masculine clothes for me is a way of stepping into my space. Whereas for you, again, thinking through kind of gender norms and heteronormative spaces, taking on color, taking on vibrancy is a way for a man to take up more space? So, I don't know if I'm onto anything there or not. But that was my thoughts.

PATRICK CASALE: I think you're definitely onto something because I think that by selecting like, the psychology behind clothing choices is really important to think about. And like I think that when I'm more intentional because one, now I also am way more intentional about like finding sensory soothing clothing, like things that I feel comfortable. And that's got to be first and foremost.

And number two, like I think being really intentional about trying to move into an acceptance space of like, almost for me, it's almost like if I wear clothing that is brighter, that is more colorful, that I feel uncomfortable in sometimes putting on, it almost allows me to be more okay with who I am personally, like personality-wise. It's accepting myself and like trying to force myself through the like, constant like no, be in the background, no, don't take up space, no, don't be seen, don't draw attention. All of the things that go through my head or did go through my head for quite some time.

I mean, hell I had… I don't know if this is relatable at all, but for so many years of my life, I didn't smile with my teeth ever. Like, if I smiled, it would be like this, you know? And you know, meeting my wife, that's been very helpful, having a really loving partnership has been really helpful. But like, I for so long, didn't smile with my teeth. I didn't want to draw attention to myself again. And I think it's just so many ways that we are so often analyzing everything, and it's so self-conscious, and the RSD that kicks in, and everything else that creates a situation where I'm like, I just want to be a blank slate. Like, I just want to be a vacant canvas. Like, I don't want to have anyone paying attention to me.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And this is something that I hadn't thought about until, you know, I've worked with a couple hundred clients by now, that until I started working with clients, so I'm sure I'm 5'2, 5'3, you are tall, that I've started thinking about this through the lens of height too. When someone is tall, eyes naturally go to the tallest person in the room. So, there's often, like, a person who's tall has to do a little bit more to mute themselves and take up less space. So, it's been a kind of a new lens to explore this through a height lens as well.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a good point. I've never thought about it, actually, to be honest with you, because yeah, I'm probably the tallest of my friends, for the most part. I don't even think I'm that tall. Like, I'm 6'2, but certainly taller than my [CROSSTALK 00:16:33]-

DR. MEGAN NEFF: …taller than me, that's tall.

PATRICK CASALE: So, it is that, yeah, you're right. Like, there is a situation where if you are out socially or out in general, in public, like your eyes do gravitate towards the tallest person in the room, or probably the shortest person in the room, in some ways.

So, I think there are so many ways, like, growing up, especially, for me, I didn't have a large friend group, I really struggled socially, I did play soccer, that was very helpful. But otherwise, I was alone a lot of the time. And I think that for me, even the concept of, like, talking more, speaking out more, standing up more, showing up more, those concepts felt so unfamiliar and so uncomfortable. And those are concepts that are a struggle when you have online businesses to run and people to show up in front of.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, there's a lot of showing up in both the work we do, yeah, yeah. I'm diverging a little bit. We're both losing our voices.

Okay, so one thing you said earlier, okay, I'm tying together two things you said, one thing you said earlier was about when I was describing that this is a sad way to move through the world, you said it's exhausting. And then you talked about being alone a lot in childhood. So, I get a lot of questions around, like, social skills training and parents who aren't also autistic often worry about their kids of like, that they should be socializing more. I think what people don't realize is we're okay. I mean, that's a huge blanket statement, a lot of us are okay. Like, we need overall baseline, a lot of us need less socializing than allistic or neurotypical people to be okay.

And I wonder how much of that is the kind of socializing a lot of us are doing is really exhausting. So, that might be different, like, if all of my social exchanges were like this, Patrick, with another autistic ADHDer, where I wasn't masking, and I wasn't thinking about the currency I bring, maybe I'd feel different about socializing. But I just don't get the appeal when socializing doesn't really give me anything, but it costs me a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. And I think that we're constantly kind of doing this, well, I don't want to use blanket statements either. I think a lot of us do this, like cost-benefit analysis a lot of the time when it comes to socializing. And, you know, you and I have talked at length about the cost, and the taxation, and the ability to recharge and soothe. But I do think there's this internal like, process where I'm like, is this worth the cost for me? Because this is going to do A, B, and C to me in the long run, or the rest of my week is just going to be completely shot.

Like, I do think that it makes being alone a lot more comfortable because you don't have to perform, you don't have to mask, you don't have to worry about how you're showing up if you're drawing attention to yourself.

You know, very often if I'm in friend groups, or social groups, where I don't know everybody I'm very aware of like everything I'm doing. And we've talked about this when we're talking about unmasking. And I just like, the toll that that takes to think about like, when do I nod my head like this? When do I, like, loosen up my shoulders? Where are my hands right now when I'm like sitting down? And all of the things. Like, do I make eye contact? If someone just laughs, do I laugh? I just think that that moment-by-moment, internal dialogue, like play by play is so, so exhausting.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I think that's what people looking from the outside miss, is they just, you know, there's this cultural idea that socializing is good. And true, I mean, we know this from psychology, belonging and connectedness is like one of the most protective factors for, you know, mental health and just well-being. But this blanket assumption, socializing is good therefore, you know, my kid needs to socialize more or I need to socialize more, right? But like, I've done a lot of that, like, I should go be social, we need to start talking about the quality of the socializing not the quantity.

PATRICK CASALE: That is so important. That's spot on, like quality over quantity for socializing because I think we do have that. I have the internal narrative too. Like, if I haven't socialized for a couple of days, I start to get kind of antsy. I'm like, "Oh, I think I should probably text a friend, I should probably reach out." But then I'm like, "But what is the quality of the connection going to be like? Is this actually going to be fulfilling and connected, where I feel like this is recharging and refilling? Or is this going to drain me even more?"

I'll give you a great example, actually. Well, last week, and probably still now I was in massive, massive burnout mode. And I was very depressed. And I felt very isolated. My wife was at a conference in Minneapolis for the week. It was raining here every damn day. I had just gotten very bad news about some health stuff. And I was in this mood where I turned everything off. I laid in my bed for eight hours in the dark watching Game of Thrones. And I said, "I need to connect with someone. Like, I really do need connection right now. And I know I need it. But I need it to be a specific type of connection. I need to spend time with one of my friends where there will be absolutely no expectation for me to conversate."

And I text one of my friends, Jennifer, who is my clinical director at my group practice here in town. She's also autistic. And I said, "Jennifer, I want to get dinner with someone but I want to get dinner with someone who isn't going to ask me questions, who is going to be okay with sitting in silence, and is going to be okay with just being in each other's space. Is that something you would be interested in." And she's like, absofuckinglutely. I will meet you at six, we don't have to talk at all."

And like, for me that was so meaningful. Even though like I was in such a bad mood, I was so low on energy, I needed that. And that's the type of quality over quantity for me, that's really important.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Well, okay, I was about to say I love so much about that story. I also, like, hate so much about that story. First of all, just like all of the factors that led into that day, but I do love how A, you have developed the ability to check in with yourself and know what you need. And a lot of us struggle to even have that skill to know what we need. And we just know it when we're all of a sudden in a situation that doesn't feel good. So, A, I love that.

And B, that you could, like, ask a friend exactly for like, this is what I'm looking for, yes or no. And it's interesting, we can do that more easily with other autistic people, right? Like, whereas I imagine that could have been interpreted more offensively by a non-autistic person.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's very true. And I probably wouldn't have sent that text to most people. I just knew, you know, that's how this will be received. And that's what I needed. Like, I needed that to be received without any sense of, like, judgment, or someone taking it personally, or any of the things that we so often have to worry about when we're having neurotypical conversations.

And it's almost like the joke about like, when you're rewriting your email a million times to make it sound more neurotypical, that's exactly what that text was for me. It was like, let's just get rid of all the fluff, all the bullshit, this is what I need. And that, for me, is the epitome of learning how to take up more space in a lot of ways because taking up space means asking for what you need and being okay with knowing that your needs matter as well. And I think that takes so much time and so much work to get to a place where you can do so without shame or embarrassment.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And this is what should be taught to autistic teens in social skills groups, right? Not like this is how you make eye contact, this is how you make small talk. And actually, I always say, if someone wants to learn those skills, that's fine. And I do it from a cross-cultural lens of like, in the same way that it can be helpful to learn other cultural norms when they're going into another culture, that's going to help make things more seamless. That's actually a fine skill set to learn, if it's framed as a cross-cultural engagement, not as this is the right way to socialize.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And on top of that we should be adding in and this as an autistic person is how things you can do to find meaningful connections with others. You can connect over interests, you can learn what you need, and learn how to self-advocate, and ask you know, friends for it, you can connect with other autistic people. Like, that would be a really robust, I'm using quotes, social skills group because it would actually help us learn how to connect with other humans in a way that feels good.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, because how much of our lives are we seeking that out and feeling like we cannot attain it? And there's just something wrong with us. And that's been my experience most of my life of like, what is wrong with me? Why can't I connect? Why can't I socialize? Why can't I feel comfortable? And it's amazing to be able to unmask, number one. Number two, to be able to identify what you're feeling and experiencing, and then ask for what you need to help soothe it.

And that's not possible for everybody. And I know that. And I know that Megan and I have the privilege, and we have the education, and the training, and we're mental health professionals, too. So, there's that combination, but it's taken me so long to get to that point where that would even be something that I would send out as a message to someone.

And she came to Ireland with me during my first retreat. And I told her the same thing then, I said, "Jen, if you're going to come with me for almost two weeks, and we're going to travel together, and I'm going to host a retreat, at the end of it I'm not going to want to talk to you. Like, I'm just being very honest. Like, I'll travel around with you, we can go see things, but like, if I need to be engaging, or if I need to be, you know, communicative, I just don't think I'm going to be able to do that." And she was like, "Yeah, that's fine. I'm going to feel the same way." And I was like, "What a major sigh of relief, like, to have some relationships like that in my life."

And I know that, that feels very fortunate to me too. I don't take that for granted whatsoever. But it's been a game changer, you know? Because it did pull me out of that mood quite a bit last week.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, that's huge to have someone in shared space. I mean, it's interesting, I was just writing about the idea of parallel play. I read a… there's a lot of books out there for autistic partnerships. And a lot of them say they're neurodiversity affirming, and then you read them, and it's like, really not. And this was one of those books, where it was cautioning people from parallel play. And I was like, "What?" When I was reading it I was like, "I love parallel play."

And parallel plays when we are essentially doing something in the same embodied space as someone else. And like reading in the same room, or eating dinner in the same space, but not talking.

And I think parallel play is so meaningful for a lot of autistic people. I see why if you're an autistic/allistic relationship, that can't be all there is. But this idea of, like, cautioning people against the dangers of parallel play, I'm like, "Wait, no, that's like such a powerful way for a lot of us to connect." My daughter and I do a lot of that. And it's interesting, I noticed all of the mom's scripts, right? Of like, "Ask your daughter when you pick her up how her day was? Like, in the car, you're supposed to have quality conversation."

I've learned that both her and I prefer to listen to music and just be in the car. And that doesn't mean I'm a bad mom, if I'm not taking advantage of those spaces to have quality conversation. But there's a lot of mom scripts I've had to work through even as an autistic person.

PATRICK CASALE: I'm so glad you mentioned that because, one, parallel play is so, so useful and so important. And I will add and piggyback to Megan's comment of like, an autistic/allistic relationship it cannot be all there is because that's not going to work for both people all the time.

But the scripts, right? Like, the scripts that we have, and these internal, like, narratives and dialogues that we have deeply rooted are things that we really have to work through. And for you, it sounds like being able to work through that with your kiddos, for me working through that with my friend groups, like the people I want in my life, I have to work through the scripts of like, this is how you be a good friend, this is how you show up, this is how you respond to things, this is when you respond to things like… and then more so just giving permission to say like, this is how I am going to show up, and this is going to be how I socialize, and this is going to be what I need from the situation.

And I think being able to do that comfortably feels unbelievably liberating. And I also acknowledge that I'm in the position to be able to do that a lot more than a lot of other people can. And I think if you can't do that safely, or you just don't have people you can do that with then it feels like when we went back to saying this feels like a torturous, lonely, painful existence. And I think that's why, hopefully, there are some like online spaces you can maybe do that with and connect with people or meetup groups, potentially, just for autistic, or ADHDers, or neurodivergent folks in general. But really trying to, you know, find those spaces for yourself wherever you're listening to and living because it's crucial. I think we really need to be able to have spaces where we can take up space and ask for what we need as well.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: I think this is partly why I like so many people when they enter autistic culture connect with autistic culture for the first time. There's some great quotes out there about it, like, feeling like home for the first time because partly, we can communicate more directly, often. Like, there's a shared communication around… And we just intuitively, often, like understand each other's limits. And there's a freedom that comes within autistic-to-autistic communication that personally I've experienced is really powerful. That's part of why I really only work with autistic people, primarily. I cap at five people a day for the most part because my kind of verbal fluency goes way down if I've done more than five hours of peopling, but sometimes something happens and someone will want to schedule like a kind of urgent appointment. And I'll be, like, full disclosure, like, "You know, I'm willing to do that, that'll make you my sixth person of the day so I might not be as coherent. If you're okay with that we can schedule."

PATRICK CASALE: I love that because from a mental health professional to client perspective that's just modeling such wonderful boundary setting and also permission to ask for what you need and permission to be transparent about what you're experiencing. And I think that's so affirmative.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: And it's a disclaimer of like, if you're going to pay for my time, you know, I'll be there, I'll be listening. But like, my sentences are going to be kind of clunky.

PATRICK CASALE: Right, you're not getting like first client of the day, 100% present version of me. But sometimes that's all we need, right? Is like to be in a space with someone who gets it and I don't have to explain myself too. And I think that is valuable in itself.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much freedom that comes when we can simply say something like, "Hey, my sentences are not going to be as fluid." And the other person gets it.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I can feel the wrap up energy. Am I reading that right?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you are. I know you have a hard and fast appointment in a couple of minutes. And I'm also feeling like my energy is now gone. So, this is a great example on air of like being attuned, and being in friendship, and connection with someone who gets it and you don't have to explain yourself to. So, I think that we can find these spaces, they can exist. And I want to keep that in mind for everyone to who might feel like that's not a possibility. My voice is almost gone, so I'm going to wrap it up, if you don't mind.

DR. MEGAN NEFF: Go ahead.

PATRICK CASALE: I think this was a good conversation, by the way. I liked that we didn't know where we were going with it. And I like where it ended. So, I just want to name that too.

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