Episode 13: When Little Things Feel Huge: Neurodivergent Perspectives on Routine Disruptions

Show Notes

Difficulty with unexpected changes or routine disruptions is a pivotal part of being Autistic and even small changes can result in a surge of irritation.

In regards to routine or plan changes, Dr. Neff described her feelings as an Autistic person: "Once I'm, like, emotionally checked out of something, I'm out."

Patrick Casale shared his experience saying that it's very hard to get back into a place where he feels mentally regulated, and he just gets very irritated, very easily.

In this episode, Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale, both AuDHDer mental health professionals, share their own struggles, experiences, and feelings around routine disruptions, being over- or under-stimulated in day-to-day life, and learning to better understand their reactions to small and big changes through the lens of their diagnosis.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand the challenges faced by ADHDers and Autistic people when it comes to sensory stimulation and emotional regulation.
2. Identify the difference between Autistic-ADHDers and pure Autistic people around routine disruption and routine changes.
3. Learn strategies to cope and self-soothe emotions such as anxiety caused by routine disruption.

It can at times feel frustrating or shameful for Autistic people to experience strong emotions or feel upset by what others see as seemingly insignificant things. However, by recognizing these feelings and understanding that they are part of our neurodivergent nature, we can help combat self-criticism and better advocate for our needs.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, you just asked if I could start it off and now I'm trying to remember the script of how we start. But maybe [CROSSTALK 00:00:39]-

PATRICK CASALE: No, no. We don't need a script because we already recorded it.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay. So, here's a tale of how I am. We've recorded several episodes and this is the first one where I'm sitting. So, to me, that's a to tell, like, I know, I'm not feeling well.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, usually, you're kind of standing [CROSSTALK 00:00:26]-

MEGAN NEFF: Like, usually, I'm standing, I'm moving. Today. I'm like, sitting. I have all the weight on me which means I'm also overheating. Do you ever do that where it's like, you want weight but then, you're overheating?

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

MEGAN NEFF: So, I'll probably be, like, sweating through today's episode because I want the weight.

PATRICK CASALE: Megan is not feeling well, so let's give her a lot of credit for being here.

MEGAN NEFF: No, I did something kind of mean to you today that I would have hated if it was the opposite. I texted you and I was like, "Hey, can we skip recording because I'm not feeling well." And then, I was going to try to get some more sleep, and then, I texted you, and I was like, "Never mind, let's record." Which I sort of like schedule change once I'm like, emotionally checked out or something I'm like out. So, I don't know, I'm just curious.

PATRICK CASALE: Thanks for that, yeah. Yeah, I was emotionally checked out because I had a podcast before this that I was doing with someone else. And then, I was like, "Oh, my day is done. Like, I'm just going to go eat lunch." And then, I don't look at my phone when I'm podcasting, obviously. And then, like, I looked at it, and I was like, "Oh, shit, we can record."

So, I wanted to because I've been away, it helps us get back in a groove, and like, we're running out of episodes. So, I was like, "I'm just going to switch my brain around and task switch." And just feels, at first, a little disorienting, you know? Because like, you're like, I was going to go outside, and yell at my dogs to come inside, figure that out, that whole situation out, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And then you saw my text like five minutes before 9:00 or 12:00 your time. So, yeah, like this is a pivotal part about being autistic, is difficulty with unexpected change or routine disruption. I know I experience a lot of things around this. We haven't really talked about that before, though. Like, yeah, do you, like, I think I would have felt a surge of irritation. Were you irritated or something?

PATRICK CASALE: No.

MEGAN NEFF: Or maybe not with me, but with the routine change?

PATRICK CASALE: Actually, in some instances, I think, in situations like that I probably would be irritated. I'm not irritated at all. I actually was like because I don't have a lot to do today, the only two things on my schedule were to do this other podcast, and then, do this. So, it actually doesn't feel that disruptive to me because I had already in my mind, like, committed to it, you know what I mean? So, it wasn't that easy to switch back to a place where I was like, "Yeah, okay, we're doing this." So…

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah. In general, like, because I also think this is different for, like, autistic ADHDers than pure autistic people, like routine disruption, routine changes. In general, like, what has your experience around those things been?

PATRICK CASALE: I do think it's challenging. You know, when you're kind of already, you're assuming or you've committed that mental energy to something happening, right? Or participating in something, or committing to something, in general, and then, all of a sudden something switches, or something comes up, or someone cancels, or whatever the case may be, it's very challenging to then get back on track to say, like, okay, I can just move on to the next thing I was supposed to do. For me, a lot of the times it looks like, I end up falling into a place of like nothingness, which is basically binge-watching shows or doom-scrolling on my phone. Like, I can't actually then say, "Oh, I have to also do this errand or do this thing." It's very challenging for me. I don't know about your own experience in that.

MEGAN NEFF: So, wait, just so I'm tracking, like you collapse into doom scrolling when there is a routine disruption?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, like, it's really hard for me to then say, "Okay, we're not doing this meeting, now what do I do?" It's hard for me to switch to something else.

MEGAN NEFF: To something else?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yes, it's always been challenging. And I can get irritated for sure if something goes awry, gets canceled, whatever the case may be. So, I mean, honestly, I happen to travel constantly, where flights get delayed, canceled, things get moved around, and it's very hard for me to then get back into a place mentally where I feel regulated. I will just get very, very irritated very easily.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, same. And I think this is one of the sources I see of internalized shame for a lot of autistic people and myself included. Like, before I knew I was autistic little things, like, change, and it could be a subtle change of plan like maybe a friend invites another friend to a social event, but I didn't know that that other person was going to be there. So, it could also be like little social differences of expectations and I would get so irritated.

But I'm a people pleaser, right? So, I would do my best not to show it so it just simmer, and then, a narrative would start around like, why are you frustrated by this? This is so silly, this is so petty, this is no big deal. So, then, the whole shame narrative around why am I so upset by something so small kicks in. And I see that a lot with autistic people where like little changes to routine can cause big emotions and irritation, but it's like our rational mind knows that's not rational, so then, we can get pretty down on ourselves for having those emotions, especially, before we understand that it's part of being autistic and it actually makes sense.

PATRICK CASALE: So, when that's happening to you, like, you know, you're going out with a friend and then, all of a sudden so and so is also there, and you're having that disruption, and you're saying, "I'm a people pleaser, so I'm going to go along with this." What's happening, like in the moment for you while you're there? Are you kind of checked out from this [CROSSTALK 00:07:10]-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think my way of responding is kind of like low-grade dissociating. So, I'm checked out, and then, that's what I call my, if I can say the word, Plexiglas, Plexiglas, how do you say that word?

PATRICK CASALE: You said it right the first time, Plexiglas, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Plexiglas moments of like, I'll be there, but I won't be there. Like, I won't emotionally be there. And I'll be like, "Why can't I get into this experience? Why can't I be here? Why can't I get out of my head?" And so, those are the situations, yeah, where I'm there, but I'm not there. I'm not there emotionally, I'm not there, like, I don't feel present.

PATRICK CASALE: Does it ever come out where like, maybe you become short in your responses or kind of like the irritation, or frustration shows through the interaction?

MEGAN NEFF: Like, probably not with friends, but maybe with family, like people, I feel a little bit closest to or I am thinking, you know there was a group project I did back in my doctoral program, and there were some, I really didn't like this project because it involved like interviewing a family. It was a family therapy class, but like, it means you had to ask a family to like do something that, I don't like making social asks of people, I think, because I don't like when people make social asks of me.

So, there's a friend of mine, the family, and we were interviewing them, and the person I was going to interview with them, like, the co-interview swapped, were a group of three, and they decided to swap places. And I, like, had all kinds of feelings around that. And I think I was trying to make some logical argument for why it shouldn't be swapped. So, it'd be an example where like, I think I behaved low-key irrationally, and was way more upset than made sense by the swap of like, who was going with me to interview the family. And it was because it was a unexpected change.

And so, that would be the other thing, I think, okay, I'm thinking on the spot here. When I would become irritated by an unexpected change I would try to figure out why it made sense I was irritated and it's like I would come up with reasons to justify my irritation, if that makes sense.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: But then I'd be, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: It's almost like a way to kind of soothe yourself, too, right? To like give yourself permission to feel the way that you're feeling.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

PATRICK CASALE: I know and-

MEGAN NEFF: Then can look like looking for things in the other person to be upset by.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, that's really true. I know when I've been in social situations, like kind of like what you're describing I will also have that Plexiglas-like moment where I will basically be non-existent. Like, in physical form I'm certainly sitting there, right? But like I'm not contributing to the conversation. If I am it's like, very much from a distance or like disconnected from it, and not really feeling involved in it, and then, trying to figure out ways to leave it. And then, you are, like you said, having that internal dialogue, trying to figure out like why you're feeling the way that you're feeling? And almost, yeah, absolutely shaming and beating yourself up for it, and just being like, why are you so upset by something so insignificant?

And trying to figure out the why behind that as we so often try to do, it's really a frustrating experience because you're almost trying to talk yourself out of feeling the way that you're feeling, but you can't get to that place, you just kind of get back to a place of like, regulation, and then, all of a sudden, everything is out of whack, and you almost beat the hell out of yourself mentally because it feels like it's something so small that caused such a major disruption.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, and it can be small. Like, what I did to you this morning, if that happened where… and partly, for me, I feel a lot of relief when things get canceled. I think that's my demand avoidance. So, someone canceled on me, and then, they were like, "Just kidding, I could meet." Like, yeah, to most people that's small, but like that would actually cause, I don't want to say significant irritation because again, I don't think the person would see it, but it would cause irritation, and then, I would do all of the things to talk myself down, and then, I'd be irritated that I was irritated. Like, that secondary emotion. So, yeah, it can be really small things that causes big emotional spikes.

This is one of the places that I think identification and diagnosis is so helpful. Like, this, I see be a big aha moment for a lot of people. I think, for anyone, it's helpful to know why we're feeling what we're feeling. I think, especially, for autistic people it's really important. It helps, you know, there's all these cheesy things in psychology, but they're not cheesy because they're also like really true, like, name it to tame it or name it to contain it. Like, when we have a name for something it's more contained.

And so, this is where, I call it free-floating anxiety, like free-floating routine disruption anxiety. And I often find with people that I'm working with, if they're anxious, and they don't understand why, and we kind of start exploring, we can typically trace it back to some sort of routine disruption. And just having that language of free-floating, like anxiety from routine disruption I know for me has been really helpful the last couple of years.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I do think that's why diagnosis is so important in so many ways because it allows you to almost give language to something that you're searching for. And it allows you to have clarity into a why and I think so often, like, for deep thinkers, and for a lot of autistic people, like, we're questioning everything, and trying to figure out the meaning of everything. It gives some relief in a way to say like, "Okay, this is why." That doesn't always change what's happening behind the scenes, but at least it gives you some comfort or understanding into this is why. Like, okay, I'm losing myself and what I'm trying to say, I think for myself-

MEGAN NEFF: Like, that happens for autistic ADHDers?

PATRICK CASALE: Like, for ourselves, like, we've talked about this, being mental health professionals gives us a different lens than a lot of people into our own inner world, which is unique. And I think for myself, like, questioning the why as it's happening, and then, associating it to being like, oh, it's because I'm autistic a lot of the times is actually like, it doesn't solve how I'm feeling or anything like that, but it gives me some understanding on a different level that I didn't have before because it almost is like permission to be like, oh, like I'm feeling the way I'm feeling because I'm autistic. It's giving me permission to feel the way I'm feeling in a lot of different ways.

MEGAN NEFF: I love that. Someone needs to work that into a hashtag, like diagnosing autism, like permission to feel the way you're feeling, and ADHD. It's interesting, I noticed you and I talk a lot more about autism and ADHD in this podcast.

PATRICK CASALE: Just mind melded on that for sure because that's exactly what I was just thinking as we're talking, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely. I do the same thing of now I'm able to be like, oh, that's my autism or that's my ADHD whereas before what I was left with is character-based labels like I'm messy, or I'm… actually, lazy wasn't, that's not been one for me, but like I'm too much, or I'm… definitely some of my self-talk was, and a lot of these are words that wouldn't be appropriate, but I'm just sharing my self-talk. Like, you're an idiot or you're incompetent. Like, a lot of really negative judgments I was making about myself that I now have a different framework for.

It's actually interesting just yesterday, so I have like three sets of AirPods because I use them all the time for my work. And then, I lose them all the time because of my ADHD. And I was going into an afternoon of sessions, and I was looking for one of my three sets of AirPods. I've actually lost most of them by now, and I find my phone, and the most recent location was a park, that adventure with my son over the weekend playing tennis, which made me realize, I realized, oh, they're in a vest jacket. I'm like walking you through the process of finding my AirPods, what is happening?

Anyways, I had washed them because I put them in a vest when I was playing tennis and I washed them. And either scenario was equally likely that I would have lost them or I would have washed them. And my spouse he was like, "Do you want me to order you a few other pairs." And I was like, "Yes, thank you." It was really interesting. He was like, "You know, a couple years ago this sort of thing, like, would have really irritated me. And now I'm just like, 'Yep, that's her brain.'"

And we've had probably like 10 interactions like that, especially, as we're moving right now, of where I've lost things, or misplaced things, or broken things, where he's also able to reflect how earlier in our marriage that would have caused him a lot of emotion and now he's able to see it as part of how my brain works.

PATRICK CASALE: That's such a great perspective from both sides. Like, it sounds like for you it's almost like permission or acceptance of, "Oh, that's my ADHD, I lost them again, and that's my reality." And for him, it's like, "This is how Megan's brain works and this is going to happen." And I think that's so interesting, as you learn more about yourself, as you learn more about your neurodivergence. It also helps your neurotypical [CROSSTALK 00:17:28].

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, it's weird all my kids are very neurodivergent, I'm very neurodivergent, and like, we refer to him as like the boring neurotypical, and we're like, "Oh, you poor thing. Like, you don't have any fun flavors with you."

PATRICK CASALE: Right and he's like, "Yeah, and I've also never lost my AirPods, so [CROSSTALK 00:17:47]-"

MEGAN NEFF: Also like, he, and okay, sorry, can I diverge, and then, we'll go back to him?

PATRICK CASALE: We can always diverge, yes.

MEGAN NEFF: Someone asked me this and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I should add this to my…" Like, you know how sometimes, especially, in training we like list our privileged identities as a way of thinking through our privileges. Like, I should list as a privileged identity that I'm married to someone who has really good executive functioning skills. And someone asked me that, they were like, "Do you…" Because they were wondering how I'm as productive as I am? And they're like, "Is it okay if I ask? Like, does your…" I think they asked, like, "Is your partner neurotypical?"

And it was a really interesting aha moment of they are and I borrow his executive functioning all the time. That's been a joke long before we realized I was autistic ADHD, was how much I borrowed his executive functioning and the kids will say it like, "If dad died we'd fall apart." And it's kind of true, like…

PATRICK CASALE: Shout out to dad.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: This is going to be the type of episode today is… So, here's an interesting thing for me that I'm realizing as we're processing what's happening right now when my executive functioning is diminished because I'm usually the one who is like orderly, and structured, and like turning things back, my brain cannot do that where I'm like, "Wait, what is happening?" It's almost like this fugue state where I just know that I'm running on very little sleep, and jet lag, and travel transition. So, my brain is just not functioning as optimally as I would like it, too. And I notice how much effort it takes to then do A, B, C, D, and E in comparison to where like, most of the time some of these, like, or structuring, and conversation, and task switching are actually quite easy for me.

MEGAN NEFF: So, you're feeling the executive functioning low today?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I didn't sleep not last night, the night before. Like, woke up at 4:00 AM and complete overwhelm, panic.

MEGAN NEFF: Wait, was this is after you got home that you woke up at 4:00 AM and panicked?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Panic attack/meltdown while laying in bed trying to figure out how to get myself back to sleep.

MEGAN NEFF: Was the panic attack because you weren't sleeping or?

PATRICK CASALE: No, it was all existential crisis/like, what am I doing with my life, nothing is successful, everything is about to crumble mentality which-

MEGAN NEFF: Wait.

PATRICK CASALE: …yeah, there's no rationale there.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I didn't know you were prone to existential crisis.

PATRICK CASALE: I feel like I am in existential crisis every moment of every day. I think that is like my natural state is questioning my purpose, and what I'm doing, and does it feel fulfilling, and is everything about to collapse? Then I started thinking… my brain is diverging a lot right now, then I started thinking about like death and dying, and like shortness on the planet, and it just really intensifies, which I notice like when I say my brain is about to diverge, and like this is all happening I'm much more in my ADHD state right now than my autistic self. So, it's very interesting for me.

MEGAN NEFF: Is your existential self like more connected to one of those parts?

PATRICK CASALE: That is a good question. I think that my existential self is connected more to the ADHD side. I really think that it's like about the creativity, and the romanticizing. And when that part is not feeling fulfillment, or it's feeling like things are not in alignment, everything starts to feel very fragmented, and disjointed and falls apart.

So, I ended up at a coffee shop yesterday at 7:00 AM doing work so I could satisfy my autistic side of crossing things off lists and being like, done, done, done, and I had three coffees by 8:00 AM. And I was like, "Oh my fucking God, today is going to be a nightmare." Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, this is kind of different than existential crisis, I definitely have those too. But when you talked about the ADHD self you reminded me of it. I don't know if I've shared this on this podcast before, but I often talk about it as the Goldilocks of stimulus. And I feel it so deeply. Like, I've seen, like, if I'm under, okay, if I'm overstimulated, which I am a lot it's too much. But if I'm understimulated, I'm really discontent.

And if I look back to the times in my life where I've had, like, just intense discontentment, and some of the questions you're describing of like, what am I doing with my life? Is it meaningful? What new, like, trip can I play on? Or can I plan another move? It's one of understimulated. And I think that is one of the pain pieces of being an autistic ADHDer, particularly, is yeah, like, I'm picturing just like a thin sheet of ice, which is our ideal window of stimulus. And it's a very, I would imagine, for a lot of us, it's a very narrow window when we're in our ideal stimulus.

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:23:22] being understimulated for the ADHD [INDISCERNIBLE 00:23:27] and how much disruption that causes the autistic side. And it's so challenging. It feels like this tug of war constantly of like, under-stemmed verse over-stemmed, and trying to desperately find that thin sheet of ice that you seemingly only have access to, like one hour of your life every month, that might be an exaggeration, but that's often how it feels.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, I think that's why hyper-focus feels so good to me, is I'm typically hyper-focused with a weighted blanket on my lap, at home. Like, my environment is sensory soothing, and then, the creativity of creating something is typically enough stimulus for me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, so that for you is like that perfection, that zone where it just feels like this is as comfortable as I can be.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I so often I'm seeking that, you know? And I don't know, sorry, my Basset Hound is like laying on my cord about to rip my sound system out, and no care in the world about how that was feeling to her. Yeah, so often I'm seeking that and I think that's really a struggle for me of feeling like where can I really feel comfortable? Where do I feel comfortable? And I do feel comfortable, like you're mentioning when I'm in creation mode when I'm in hyper-focus mode. That is a comfort place, for me. And I think so often I'm like, trying to force myself back to that place when I can't access it, and that's where things get really, really chaotic and disrupted.

MEGAN NEFF: When you can't access creativity, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, I think that's when, and I know we're going to do an episode on it, and we keep saying that, so we probably should do an episode, like substances. I think that's when we're really vulnerable to substances of like the liquid dopamine or when we don't have access to creativity, looking for, like that, I would call it faux ideal stimulus window through chemicals and substances.

PATRICK CASALE: All right, y'all, this is us holding ourselves accountable that we are going to do an episode on substances because I think it's just so, so important, and you know, has a major impact on my life still, to this day, where I, unfortunately, still so often have to rely on alcohol for so many things and caffeine, too. But, yeah, I think that is what I was feeling and experiencing.

Now, my Basset Hound just got up and knocked my garbage over and is just yawning like she didn't do anything, just a clumsy, like, large mammal.

But I do think that was a struggle. I think I've come out of that after, you know, what ended up happening, if I can walk you through this process at 4:00 AM was that I had to then start putting, I was feeling very overwhelmed by all the to-dos, as well of like, the different segments of my life. So, I had to really compartmentalize because I was feeling like I was going to lose track of everything. And what I had to do was start making to-do lists for my group practice, for my other business, for my podcast, for my retreats coming up, for something else, so I had to start putting everything in its place to soothe my brain because my brain was so overwhelmed at that point where I was just really struggling. And I mean, yeah, those days are challenging. They're thankfully not, they're few and far between. But those days are challenging.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And to-do lists are so containing. Like, in middle school and high school, I'd sit in class, not paying attention, making to-do lists, just to organize the chaos.

And I actually had this thought about you this week, Patrick. Like, people tell me I do a lot, and it's true, I do. But like, I don't think I do nearly as much as like, yeah, I honestly don't understand how you do it between the podcasts, and the retreats, and like owning a whole group practice. I could never, never do that. Yeah, you have a lot on your plate.

PATRICK CASALE: Thanks. I think, one, thank God I have good support in those businesses and two, I don't have kids, you know? So, I give you credit, too because so often we often overlook, like, people will say that to me, "How do you do so much? How do you create so much?" You know, and I'm like, "I don't have any children I don't have anything to do. I'm just like working. You know, like, if I'm not playing soccer or socializing, I'm just working."

So, it's a good and bad thing. I think my capacity can often get me into trouble because it's like, okay, in one instance, when you're feeling really creative, and you're feeling really hyper-focused, and you're feeling really energized, my capacity is like a massive, massive asset for me. But the flip side of that, of having that capacity is that now you have all of these things start to unravel, or that you have to maintain, or that you have to do for the week. And I've created that for myself, it's difficult sometimes.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this on your, this might have been one of our first conversations on Private Practice Podcast, like how our ADHD parts will create projects, and then, like our autistic part will have to maintain. I've been feeling that. Okay, another episode we should do at some point is like health and autism.

So, again, diverging here, I got COVID in 2020, like March of 2020, the month interrupted, and my autistic child and I got lung COVID, and the two non-autistic people in our family did not. And I'm seeing that lung COVID is a lot more common among autistic people. This spring, pretty sure we got the newest variant. We were testing negative but like, I'm pretty sure it's COVID. And then, my child and my lung COVID has come back. So, I think the last like six or seven episodes we've recorded I've been sick.

So, I'm feeling that right now of like, I've committed to making a workbook once a month, I'm writing a book in four months for Simon and Schuster, which I'll maybe talk about at some point. So, I'm in the middle of like a really fast manuscript, we're moving, and I'm feeling that right now. Like, I don't have any energy reserves to give, but I've committed to all these things. And for me, it's less about ADHD or autism, I think it's more about the health stuff that's come up for me because usually, summer is my most productive time of year. And so, now, I feel like it's getting robbed by lung COVID.

PATRICK CASALE: Which is a thing that I imagine brings up some emotion too, of like feeling robbed. I also can relate to the summer being very productive for me, and in more ways than one, not just professionally, I feel like I'm my best self in the summer and the fall. And I feel like I'm almost hibernating the rest of the year.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, same.

PATRICK CASALE: Like recharging, you know? Like, and just trying to replenish. It's really hard when, you know, there's nothing to pull from. And you also did mention that you also see clients and do assessments, and, you know, you may have a lot going on.

MEGAN NEFF: I have put assessments on pause till I get healthy because that's a big lift. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot. Yeah, I found myself like just kind of trying to do bare minimum, which doesn't feel great to me. But there're seasons where that's all you can do.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's what I'm experiencing right now is that it may, to the outside world, feel like I'm doing a lot. But for me, it feels like bare minimuming because of throat surgery in October, I changed my life around pretty drastically. So, I think I'm at that point now where my energy is coming back but I'm not doing anything with it. Or at least I feel like I'm not doing anything with it apart from like resting in between retreats. Like, recharging every two months, or six weeks, or whatever, to be able to do another one. And then, I'm like, my rational brain's like, "But you are doing something, you're resting, you're like recharging you're, you know, doing whatever." But that's what I've been feeling, I need something to be working on. And that's what's missing in my life at the moment.

MEGAN NEFF: And does it feel connected to meaning? Like, you need something meaningful to be working on?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it has to be meaningful, it can't just be like a task that I have to do, like, so, I think you can't force that, that's the struggle is like, I can't force it. I keep trying to find it. But wait, let me diverge again, this is meaningful. What you and I are doing is meaningful.

MEGAN NEFF: I was literally just going to say that, like, when we decided to start this we were both so busy and we're like, this is ridiculous, and we were both looking for meaning, we were both, like, I wanted an avenue where I was more personal than I am on, like, Instagram and my website, you were looking to dive more, specifically, into autism, ADHD stuff. So, yeah, I was just associated back to one of our personal conversations about like, let's do this because it sounds like a really meaningful project.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, thank you for reminding me of that. And I was thinking about that. You know, we've been apart for a couple weeks from me traveling and not connecting via podcasting. But we're still like, attuned, which is cool because I think that's what we were seeking. Like, are we going to find our rhythm? Are we going to find our balance? You were right, this is super meaningful. And the feedback has been phenomenal. And maybe we'll do an episode where we explicitly talk about some of the feedback we've received and some of the things that y'all want us to talk about, too. Because I think that we have a lot of good topics in store and we have a lot of good topics on the list. It's just, you know, we have these topics, and then, we get together and we just start talking. In true neurodivergent fashion, we don't end up talking about them or discussing them, so we will get to them, we promise, maybe, I don't know if we promise that.

MEGAN NEFF: Do you feel… so this is one of the first, I mean, I think, we've recorded once or twice since this was live. But do you feel more pressure like seeing the feedback, seeing how many downloads there are? Do you feel more pressure when we come into this space down here and we're recording? Because I remember like the first day we recorded, I like forgot it was a podcast. I was like, I'm going to have tea with my friend Patrick and have an interesting conversation that, you know, now thousands of people get to listen to.

PATRICK CASALE: Damn, I wasn't thinking about that until right now. Yeah, I think so. Probably, I mean, yes and no. Like, I feel pressure to continue to create, but I feel it for, like, a good reason because I think what we're doing is valuable, and people are getting a lot out of it. So, that feels like good pressure.

I think if we had sponsorship in place that would feel like a different type of pressure where you're like, because my other podcast has sponsorship in place and I do feel pressured to have constant episodes coming out because you can't really skip a week or two when you've committed to a contract of like 52 episodes in a year. So, I don't feel that pressure here. I feel the pressure of knowing that 15,000 people have listened to this podcast in less than two months. And just the fact that that means something. Like, I think that feels like a good pressure. But it also feels like a lot of weight and responsibility sometimes. What about you?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think maybe a little bit of like pressure to say something profound in each episode or to like have a cohesive conversation, even though I think a lot of the feedback we're getting is like, "Oh, my goodness, this is like the kinds of conversations I have." So, there's probably something to the Divergent Conversations we have that is actually quite helpful. But yeah, I think a little bit to like, have it be some really meaningful poignant conversation. And reality is, like all human conversations, the conversations we have won't always be like these super aha meaningful pieces.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I want them to naturally manifest instead of trying to force them to. So, if there's a topic we're talking about, and then, we diverge from it, I think that's meaningful in a lot of ways because the goal with this was to highlight and showcase like in real time what autistic ADHD brains and communication are often doing, and how we're experiencing in the moment examples. So, I think, you know, that is poignant in itself. Yeah, so [CROSSTALK 00:37:01]-

MEGAN NEFF: So, trying to wrap it, like, is your brain right now like, okay, we've got a lot of weaves out here. We've talked about existentialism, we've talked about, like, work, and fatigue, and sickness, we've talked about routine disruption.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. 

MEGAN NEFF: Is there pressure to like, let's wrap it up in a nice, tiny bow?

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's just my own pressure of like, feeling like, are we at the end without asking, are we at the end?

MEGAN NEFF: You can always just ask.

PATRICK CASALE: I know, one day, Megan, one day. I think we've talked about a lot of good stuff today. And I think given that you're not feeling well, and I am jet-lagged, this feels pretty good to me. And I think my brain is now vacant, so…

MEGAN NEFF: Can I share one silly story before we go? So…

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: I think this is an ADHD-dyslexia thing. But there's so many words that like I've just been saying my whole life that are just flat-out wrong. So, I just found out like a month ago, my husband and daughter went to England and came back. And I asked them if they were jet lagged. And I always thought it was jet leg. And they were like, "No, it's jet lag." And like, my nine-year-old was explaining this to me. I was like, "No, it's jet leg." And my son was like, "How did you think it was… Like, how does that make sense? Like, how did you think it was jet leg? Like, it's lag." And like, I don't know why that made sense for me. Probably, in the same way that like I thought for years hat hair was cat hair. When people were like, "Oh, you have hat hair." I was like, "Someone told me like, 'Oh, you have cat hair.'" So, anyways, when you say jet lag it's just a fun reminder that me and words have a fun relationship.

PATRICK CASALE: Megan and words do have a fun relationship.

MEGAN NEFF: Which I've been realizing as I've listened to this podcast back.

PATRICK CASALE: I think I told you this, like, when you were using the word, what was it?

MEGAN NEFF: Claustrophobic?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Wait, how do you actually say that word?

PATRICK CASALE: As long as I'm accurate in saying like, are you saying claustrophobic?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, claustrophobic.

PATRICK CASALE: I think someone asked us on our Instagram page, too?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, someone who was like, because like, their voice memo wasn't picking it up. They're like, "What was this word you're saying because like my voice translator won't pick it up." So, how do you say that word?

PATRICK CASALE: Claustrophobic.

MEGAN NEFF: That just sounds gross to me. Like, I really prefer claustrophobic.

PATRICK CASALE: So, when you're saying claustrophobic, claustrophobic, I legit, in my head, I thought, I think what Megan means is claustrophobic but I don't want to be rude and say, "Megan, are you saying a completely different word?" And for a second, I thought, I have to look up the definition of claustrophobic and see if there is a word, and if it means what she's saying because I am now believing that this is a different word and term.

MEGAN NEFF: So, this was my friend at seminary and I went to Princeton Seminary, so you know, pretty like Ivy League, so pretty smart people. And one thing she told me was that I love, she was like, "You're really smart, but then when you talk in class, you'll say these words and like, because you sound smart people will like believe you, but the words don't make sense." And I think because I speak with confidence, and because, generally, I know what I'm talking about then when I totally misuse a word people are like, "Oh, maybe that is a real word." No, like it's not, it's just me and my relationship with words.

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:40:54] like create some social media graphics of Megan's words that she's used in this podcast or just in life that come up pretty regularly.

MEGAN NEFF: There's a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that you can laugh at it, you know? And just own it. Yeah, that's definitely what was happening for me. I was just sitting there like, what the hell is she talking about? I don't know. Maybe she's, I mean, then you convinced me that that was a word so I just never questioned it.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I was using it so confidently because in my mind that is how you say it.

PATRICK CASALE: All right, y'all, if you're still with us, we appreciate it and hope you can get something out of today, and just the realization that this is what a lot of days look like, and feel like, and this is how they're experienced by two folks that are neurodivergent. So, we appreciate you listening.

And to everyone listening, there are new episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast out every single Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. And you can like, download, subscribe, and share. And we really appreciate your support. And, goodbye.