Episode 127 (Season 4): Landmark College: Neuro-Inclusive College to Career Transitions [featuring Jan Coplan]

Show Notes

Navigating the transition from education to the workplace is challenging for anyone, but neurodivergent individuals face unique barriers, from inaccessible application processes to the pressure of masking during interviews and employment. Understanding what actually helps—and hinders—neurodivergent people thrive at work is crucial for both job-seekers and employers who want truly inclusive environments.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the real-life hurdles and opportunities that come with entering the workforce as a neurodivergent person. They reflect on their own post-college job searches, discuss the emotional and executive functioning demands of interviews, and consider why standard hiring practices can be so exclusionary. The conversation also features guest Jan Coplan from Landmark College, who shares insights about equipping students with learning differences for meaningful employment, and highlights actionable ways employers can create neuro-inclusive workplaces.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain honest, neurodivergent perspectives on the struggles of job applications, interviewing, and workplace social dynamics—plus hear practical strategies for advocating for your own needs at work.
2. Learn about innovative recruitment and onboarding practices from Landmark College’s Jan Coplan, and discover specific, low-cost accommodations employers can make for a genuinely accessible workplace.
3. Explore thoughtful discussions on disclosure, masking, intuition in hiring, and the emotional impact of workplace culture—all with a focus on what actually helps neurodivergent people succeed long-term.

This episode offers both real-world stories and actionable advice on transitioning from higher education to the workplace as a neurodivergent person, as well as advice for creating professional spaces where everyone can show up authentically. Learn how small shifts can make a big difference in supporting neurodiversity in education and at work.

More about Jan:

Jan Coplan, M.Ed., has more than 28 years of experience in the field of education and has been a career counselor for the past eleven years. She is currently the Senior Director of Employer Relations and Career Connections at Landmark College in Putney, Vermont, an institution exclusively for students who learn differently, including dyslexia, ADHD, or autism.

Jan is passionately committed to creating greater awareness of the advantages individuals with learning differences bring to the workplace. In the last several years, she has been a contributing author to research published in this realm. During her ten years at Landmark College, she has worked to increase the number of professional work experiences for neurodivergent individuals both locally and nationwide, including placements at Hasbro, JP Morgan Chase, Microsoft, SAP, EY, Prudential, CAI Neurodiverse Solutions, Equinix, Tufts Point 32 Health, and Dell Technologies. She played an instrumental role in Landmark College becoming the first Neurodiversity Hub (a collaborative to create employment opportunities for neurodivergent students) in the United States.

Affiliations:

• National Association of Colleges and Employers (NACE)
• Cooperative Education and Internship Association
• National Career Development Association
• Neurodiversity Hub
• Disability IN
• College Autism Network

Landmark College is seeking employers interested in hiring their students to join their upcoming Career Fair on 10/22/2025. Learn about Landmark College’s Career Support: landmark.edu/academics/career-connections

• Jan’s LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jancoplan

 

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are continuing our conversation today about life post-discovery. And today, we are talking about work and transitioning into the workplace.

And I know that back when I graduated college in 2008, into that wonderful recession that we had, the only skill set that I had was bartending. And I certainly was not ready to transition into a workplace.

MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. So, I didn't make this connection until just now. So, transitioning to the workplace was also hard for me, shocker. So, I was like, "I'll just do more school." So, I went and did a three-year master's. That's when I did my first master's. And I graduated from that in 2009. So, when I was applying for jobs, like every job I applied for had like 200, 300 applications. And so, on top of being neurodivergent, it was a really hard time to be hitting the job market, perhaps similar to right now for a lot of folks.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep. The market is rough. And there are a lot of applicants and a lot of overqualified applicants for a lot of limited positions. And I think when you are in that space, you're not only trying to get your needs met, but you're panicking, trying to find your footing. If you're coming right out of college or grad school and trying to find work, it can be really daunting.

Application processes are not accessible for the most part. Like, having to go online, click a link, go through a online quiz or assessment at times, like schedule a follow-up call, or an interview, or a video call, it's really unbelievably overwhelming.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, talk about decision paralysis, but then, also, the executive functioning of applying. And the part about applying for jobs that's always been hardest for me is like, I always felt like I was lying on like CVs, resumes, cover letters, because everyone kind of oversells their skill sets on these things. Like, it'll be like, "I know how to do email." And you make it, how would that read on a CV? Like…

PATRICK CASALE: I don't know at this point in time. I would probably put into ChatGPT. Like, "Help me make this sound more, like, appealing or more exciting."

I used to remember putting, like, I can type 60 words per minute as a job skill. And right now, I mean, people will be like, "What the fuck is this?"

MEGAN NEFF: Like? What is this, honestly? Yeah, yeah. So, like, resumes always just seemed really intimidating. Yeah, the whole process. Like, I have not had a traditional work career, like, at all.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I have not since COVID. I mean, everything pivoted for a lot of people, and for a lot of people who discovered their neurodivergence later in life or a form of it. I was working from home. I had so much energy. I could be in my bed until the alarm went off and walk upstairs. Like, it was great.

I always thought, like, interviews are weird, right? And I don't know what my five-year plan is. So, if you ask me where I'm going to be in five years, or how I'm going to help the company, I would always have to embellish that or make up the answer that they wanted to hear.

MEGAN NEFF: That's also hard for a lot of us, because it feels like we're lying. So, like, in some interviews, this worked well in the psychology field, but I would answer really honestly. And then, the more corporate I got, the less that went over well.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, absolutely. I've also been in, and I've talked about this with our upcoming episode with Jan Coplan from Landmark College. I have been in the side of being the interviewer a lot of times in my workplace. And I didn't know I was ADHD at the time, but I would just eliminate all the fluff from the conversation. Like, we don't need to know anything aside from, do you know how to do the job that we are hiring you for? And do I feel like you are a good fit in the workplace?

Like, because so often there are so many things that are going to be missed, right? Contextually. Like, is this person going to come out for, like, after-dinner drinks, at work? Or are they going to be good at networking and hanging out around the water cooler or whatever?

And it's like that stuff never mattered to me. So, I would do interviews in 10, 15 minutes, and if you weren't a good fit, I would just kind of blow it out very quickly, because, like, why waste our time?

MEGAN NEFF: So, I don't think there has been, but this would be an interesting… So, my sister-in-law is actually in, like, kind of organizational psychology field. And she does a lot of interesting research. I should ask her. I doubt there's been research on this. But it'd be interesting to look at when autistic folks are running the interview, versus allistic folks, what are they looking for? And how does that influence, I guess, decision-making? I think there has been research about how a lot of allistic people overemphasize, like, likability or social ability, of like, is this someone I want to hang out with?

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

MEGAN NEFF: And then, because what we know about cross-neurotype studies, right, if that's an allistic interviewer interviewing an autistic person, they're less likely to connect in that way. And so, that would, obviously, be then a detriment to the autistic interviewee.

But I would think maybe autistic interviewers would be a little bit more, of course, not across the board, but it might be more like looking at some of the, like, facts of you know, can this person do this job? They might have more of an algorithm in mind of what they're considering.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and less like, do I think this person would understand my jokes? Or like, would this person, you know, laugh at some of the things in the workplace?

I was always just, like, can you do the job? Here are the facts. Like, give those to me. Let's be done with this. Like, let's not have an hour-long interview, because we don't need to, right? Like, let's make it as short as possible.

MEGAN NEFF: So as soon as I said that, I was like, "Okay, that's a contradiction." Everyone I've hired on my team, yes, they could do the job, but it's also because I intuitively really liked them and clicked with them. And I have a small team, so liking the people and knowing that they would gel well. Like, that becomes really important when you have a small team.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I've always hired off of intuition. And I've always like said jokingly-

MEGAN NEFF: Which, I guess, maybe that's what allistic people do, is they also hire off intuition.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And we do too. It's just when you've got a cross-neurotype situation, our intuition is often not as like, we don't feel as energetic and sparkly about cross-neurotype interactions in general. And we do when we're connecting with kind of folks where we just naturally fall into rhythm and conversation. And so, yeah, I guess maybe that's just kind of a human thing, is, of course, our intuition is going to influence some of that decision-making.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. Think about, like, how much masking goes into interviews, too.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, so much.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:09:01] really psych myself up for this next 30, 40 minutes to show up and try to get this job. So, I have to, like, present, however I think they want me to present in order to [CROSSTALK 00:09:13]-

MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:09:13]. Yeah, absolutely. And all the scripting that goes ahead of time. Like, I remember trying to think through any potential question they'd be asking me so that I could pre-script a response.

Because, for me, I think you are better at this than I am, but processing speed in the moment is really hard for me. And so, like a lot of times, this still happens when I speak publicly, and when I get to the Q&A, someone will ask me a question, and I'll get stumped. And then, after the call, when I don't have the pressure of it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's how I would have answered that." It's just I need that processing speed, which that's one line I've heard that I like, as like an interview, kind of, like, support we can use to something like, "That's a really good question. I'd like to take a minute to collect my thoughts." Like, having something like that, that gives us a moment to, like, collect our thoughts before we're talking when we're in an interview or asking for the questions ahead of time.

I did that recently. I had a big interview for… because I'm working on my UK visa. And I had a big interview as part of that process, because I'm applying for a specific visa. And I needed an endorsement for that. And I did ask. I said, "Would it be possible to get some of the questions ahead of time that really helps my brain processing?" And they did.

PATRICK CASALE: Well done.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And it was so helpful.

PATRICK CASALE: You know, it's really hard for a lot of us, too, like panel interviews where you have multiple people.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yes.

PATRICK CASALE: You're trying to, like, figure out the social dynamics, you would say maybe social ligaments. Who am I speaking to? Who am I making eye contact with? How am I looping back into this conversation? I'm getting, like, questions from these three people sitting in different places. And that becomes really, really challenging and really overwhelming.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, because then there's like, there's two things happening. There's like, the group dynamic of like, when do I hop into the conversation? And there's also the, like, I'm presenting.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I actually am sitting here today with you in this unorthodox career that I have discovered, probably because of my struggles in those types of interviews, because I was a criminal justice major in college. And I was working on becoming a border patrol agent in 2008. Just saying it out loud, now it sounds sorrowful.

MEGAN NEFF: Wait, border patrol agent?

PATRICK CASALE: But mainly because you can be in San Diego, or you can be in these cool locations. And I took it at face value of like, "Oh, I get to just live in San Diego."

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:12:01] like, I would be on the border of San Diego. Anyway, went through, like, the physical, the psychological, the interview process. And my last step was an oral, like panel of three different agents asking simultaneous questions, and asking for vignettes, and asking for you to share, like, step by step, what would you do in situations and make it up on the fly?

I failed it miserably. And they tell you that immediately. So, that was like a build-up of my entire career professionally, immediately shattered. And I'm so thankful that it was for obvious reasons. And it was just shattered immediately, because I could not figure out a way to figure out how to answer questions in a way that they wanted me to answer them.

And I also failed my final Teach for America panel interview, too, for the same reason.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my goodness.

PATRICK CASALE: I couldn't do it. I just could not, like, create that story that they were looking for. And-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, well, and it goes back to the, we speak so directly, and it feels like we're lying if we're not. But people are expecting you, I think, in interviews, they're expecting you to say something bigger. So, then, if like, what we're saying really matter of factly, if that to them, they're thinking that's our big story, because that's what everyone does in an interview, it probably sounds really deflating. Or like we're very uninspired, whereas it's like we are just very… it's the same thing. Okay, this is a really weird link. It's the same thing on the on The Bachelor. Okay, I think I might finally be done with The Franchise. But it's been a show I've watched since I was, like, I don't know, 16. So, it's been like a soothing show. And I have some embarrassment about it.

But always on The Bachelor or The Bachelorette, there's one person who's like, I'm not sure I'll be ready for engagement. I really want to make sure about this, this, and this, before we get there. And then, the lead is like, takes what feels like really genuine. Like "I actually want to think about this before I get engaged. And I love you" as like, doubt and lack of commitment. And in my mind, I'm like, "No, that's like, honest commitment. They're not love bombing you. They're not like, 'Yes, we'll spend, like, forever together.'" They're like, actually being honest about it. But the lead almost always takes that as like a sign of doubt. And I'm like, no, that's a sign of like, they're thinking deeply about it. And so, if they decide yes, you know, that person has thought through it deeply.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

MEGAN NEFF: I feel like that's like the autistic person in the interview.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, seriously.

MEGAN NEFF: Who's like, thinking deeply about it. And so, that if we are committing, it's like, well, I've thought through these things. I'm not just going to say yes and give you this big vision unless I've, like, really thought through it.

PATRICK CASALE: And if I have really thought through it, then I'm really committed to it. So, you're going to get like 150% of all in this from this autistic interview, or instead giving the job to someone who, like, embellishes, whatever, and isn't really all in.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yeah. Like, people don't like ambivalence. But ambivalence is often honest. But you kind of have to mask that in an interview.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. I could not [CROSSTALK 00:15:30]-

MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:15:30]-

PATRICK CASALE: …never answer the five-year question of, "Where do you see your five years?" I would always say, like, "How would I know the answer to that?" And they'd be like, "But aren't you interested in, like, progressing here, and like, developing into, like, higher levels of leadership?" And I'd be like, "I have no idea. I don't even know what I want to do tomorrow most days."

MEGAN NEFF: And I also feel like that's part of the bottom-up processing. Like, for me, it's like, until I'm in the system, I'm not going to know what I want. And so, yeah, how can I, like, look in and know what I'm going to want. Yeah, this is that bottom-up processing. I think it's also that, like, context insensitivity of like, we can't perceive the context that we haven't experienced yet to be able to make a statement like that. Yeah, and then we're going to be honest about that, versus just say, yeah, I want to be-

PATRICK CASALE: I want to be [CROSSTALK 00:16:24]-

MEGAN NEFF: …in this position in five years.

PATRICK CASALE: …leadership. And I want to be developing and learning about… Yeah. I didn't know how to answer that question. I missed out on a lot of jobs, but I did find out, like, if I was really high masking, embellishing my answers, I secured a lot of offers of employment in my lifetime, because I can be really charismatic, and I can be really, like, gregarious in certain situations. And I always found that if I was that way, instead of my typical yourself, that I got hired very frequently. And I never realized, like, wow, that just took an enormous amount of energy to, like, be in that environment for 30 minutes.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I actually, like, did decently, again, when it was, like, aligned with kind of my ethos. I did pretty decently in interviews, too, but partly I was applying to places where, like, humanness was valued. Like, I could do well in interviews, but then, I would just work so hard, because I was constantly, like, trying to prove my worth. And so, I think, it's like all of the vulnerabilities I have, right, like not feeling like I'm good enough, all of the overcompensating, all of the people pleasing, like that's what made me good in the traditional workplace, was that relentlessness, or in my internships.

Like, I think my most classic work experience actually comes from my, like, internships I did throughout my doctoral training, because I would be in like hospitals and various settings. And it was just, yeah, the intensity of how I worked that people did like. But it wasn't the social networking. Like, I'd go to my little office. I'd avoid lunch hour as much as I could.

And that was also painful to see how other people would get these opportunities because of social connections. And that part was always a little bit harder for me. I did get some nice breaks because of connections I had through, like, deep relationships. But that part of work is also hard, the whole networking piece.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, the hierarchical, like, networking. Now, because we ate lunch together and we've established some semblance of relationship, I might get a promotion out of it. Like, those are always the hard things for me. Like that, and also what you're saying, like, working so hard to prove something, and then, inevitably, burning yourself out completely.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, work is complex for a lot of us. So, Esther Perel is someone I like in general. And I don't know if this podcast is still active, but she had one about work for a while, because it's this idea of like we bring our whole selves to work. So, whatever, like unfinished business we have psychologically, like that shows up in the workplace. So, for neurodivergent folks, like, frankly, I think a lot of us, have a lot of unfinished business around identity and worth. And so, if we're lucky enough to even get into the workplace, then all of that stuff is going to show up there, too. And that can be really complex.

PATRICK CASALE: Really complex, yeah. Really well said. And you know, I think for a lot of us, maybe whether or not we learned out, learned out? Found out, figured out that we were autistic ADHD later in life, or just in general had any form of neurodivergence, or you were identified or diagnosed early on, like, I think it's hard to go through like preparation mentally and skills based to really know what the workplace is going to be like once you get out of, like, schooling, or training, or any sort of education. Like, getting into the workplace is messy a lot of the time. And navigating dynamics, navigating the social sphere of everything, learning how to advocate for yourself, whether you decide to-

MEGAN NEFF: Navigating disclosure, like-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Most people in traditional workplaces don't disclose autism or invisible disabilities, which is sad and also makes sense to me. Like, it says something about the state.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And then, it's like, will the employer be understanding? Will they honor and grant my accommodation needs and requests? Even though legally they kind of have to in most scenarios, are you going to be treated differently afterwards? Are you going to be discriminated against?

MEGAN NEFF: There's a wild story in… So, Neurodiversity Edge is a book I really like around like neuro-inclusive workplaces. And in the book, she tells a story of, like, she was pretty high up. This might have been her. I can't remember if this was the author's story. I read it a long time ago, or if she was telling someone else's story. She might have been telling someone else's story, but someone who was high up disclosed that they were neurodivergent. It was like they were in a DEI-ish type role, I believe, but where it was like outward-facing, the business was like

responding the way you ideally want a business to respond. But then, over time, they were really, like, isolating her out. And still, I can't remember again, they either fired her or she quit.

But it was like, it was this really weird, they were saying they wanted to do this at the workplace, have more like, neuro-inclusion. And then, she comes out as neurodivergent. And then, over time, gets like, iced out from her job.

Again, I don't remember the details, but it's just this, the irony of, even if someone is using the language of this is what we want as a business, like you can still be in the position of, actually, that's not what they want.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Yeah, yep. As an employer who employs a lot of neurodivergent people, you know, we encourage disclosure. We encourage embracing self. And that goes into communication, that goes into hiring, that goes into onboarding, that goes into how we move through the world and in the workplace. And I can still say, like, cross-neurotype interactions can still become very complex and complicated, even with the best of intentions.

And, you know, for me, my communication style being much more direct than a lot of people's can definitely rub people the wrong way unintentionally, where it's like, "Patrick's just an asshole. He's so rude." Or, "He's so dismissive." Or, "So blunt."

And you know, I think even with the best laid plans, you still need to have grace on both sides, and for the employer side, for the employee side. And that's really the only way to create cohesion, is to really be in open communication and dialog a lot of the time.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think dialog and humility, a term I've started using, and I started using this when I started doing trainings in the, like, workplace setting, was neurological humility. Like, in the same way we talk about cultural humility, which is the idea of like, I'm not going to assume I know about you or your culture, and I'm not going to assume that things about my culture are the right way to do things. And white people, we have a lot of work to do around cultural humility, partly because we don't always understand what's actually part of white culture. That's a whole other conversation.

Neurological humility would be the same thing, where it's like, first, so I'm not going to assume that I'm not in a cross-neuro type interaction. Like, any conversation we have could be a cross-neuro type one. And we don't always know. And then, not assuming that, like, there's a right way to be processing the information, or the sensory environment, or a right way of communicating. And to lean in with curiosity of like, "Okay, so if this person is being direct." Instead, be like, "Oh, well, they're arrogant, or they're rude. Can I slow down and wonder if maybe there's something else happening in this interaction that I'm missing." And all of us, like certainly allistic people, but also autistic people, ADHD, like all of us, I think, could benefit from more neurological humility in that way.

PATRICK CASALE: Agreed. Yeah, that's very, very, very well said. And what you mentioned about being curious, and not assuming, and some of these, like little accommodations, and tweaks, and edits that you can incorporate into the workplace, are really low-hanging fruit. Like, you know, shifting how you communicate in the workplace, offering multiple modes of communication. Like, making it foundational.

MEGAN NEFF: I'm curious if you could go back to college, Patrick, and if you did have this understanding, what would have supported you in entering the workplace?

PATRICK CASALE: I think what would have been really supportive of me at that time would have been like, flexible scheduling in certain aspects of like, certain days you can work from home if you're having bad sleep nights, which happened so often back then, or you can work remotely. I think that would have been really wonderful.

And just to have some real transparency about what the expectations of the jobs were, because I think so often they're, like, hidden almost in like context, and also, just like this should just be intuitive or expected. So, to have things laid out really like black and white, of like, here's your job, here's your responsibilities. This is what you need to be doing and when you should be doing it, would have been really helpful, because I spent a lot of time, like, trying to read between the lines in a lot of situations and really creating a lot of frustration and a lot of overwhelm too.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, that clarity would be so helpful.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And it's interesting that would be helpful for job placements too, because, like, turnover is costly. And so, if they're able to also help, like, make sure it's a good fit from both sides, and through providing that kind of clarity, like, that's the kind of thing I love when we start talking about, like, accommodations, is a lot of these things. It's not just that it's helpful for the neurodivergent person, but like, it's helpful all around. So, that would be an example of if workplaces could do some of those shifts in their recruitment process, that's actually also good for them.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a win/win all around. And as an employer, I do know how costly hiring is and turnover is. So, like, being able to create a more inclusive space to ensure that turnover is less, employees are more satisfied, and feel more supported, and more seen, and understood, would be really wonderful.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, you had a really interesting conversation, I know, with Jan from Landmark about this, about transitioning into the workplace, about supporting neurodivergent folks in the workplace. So, we're going to shift to that next, but anything else you want to wrap up you and me before we segue to the conversation you all had.

PATRICK CASALE: I think what you were talking about, about… what did you say? Neurological?

MEGAN NEFF: Neurological humility.

PATRICK CASALE: Neurological humility. I was thinking, because I'm re-watching TED Lasso again, and when he's just like quoting Walt Whitman of just be curious. And I think being curious and really doing some leaning into that in the workplace, both from the employee and the employer perspective, and being curious about each other's experiences, strengths, areas of growth and support, I think, it really does make a much more inclusive environment and a much easier transition.

MEGAN NEFF: I love that. And that's really like at the heart of what I try to emphasize when I do these trainings too. Of like, yeah, we can have checklists. And that's great to be thinking about sensory checklists and things we can do. But at the heart, like, if folks take one thing away about, how do I make my workplace more neuro-inclusive? It's lean into curiosity. Yeah. Can you be curious about your employer? If they're struggling, can you be curious about why and not jumping to a conclusion?

Curiosity is just so needed right now in the world in general, but curiosity opens space, whereas assumptions close space. And so yeah, that feels like a beautiful note for our part of the conversation to end on.

PATRICK CASALE: I agree. And we hope that you enjoy the next part of the conversation, where I talk with Jan Coplan from Landmark about how they transition neurodivergent higher education into the workplace and support both the employer and the employee. And we will see you next Friday.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have a special bonus episode featuring a former sponsor of ours, a representative, and a faculty member at Landmark College.

So, we have Jan Coplan, who has a master's in education and more than 28 years of experience in the field, has been a career counselor for the past 11 years, currently the Senior Director of Employer Relations and Career Connections at Landmark College in Putney, Vermont, an institution exclusively for students who 8learn differently, including dyslexia, ADHD, and autism.

Jan is passionately committed to creating greater awareness of the advantages of individuals with learning differences being brought into the workplace. In the last several years, she has contributing to authored a research published in this realm. During her 10 years at Landmark, she has worked to increase the number of professional work experiences for neurodivergent individuals, both locally and nationwide.

She played an instrumental role at Landmark College, becoming the first neurodiversity hub, a collaborative to create employment opportunities for neurodivergent students in the United States, which is really cool. Huge accomplishment. Welcome to the show. Did I miss anything in your bio?

JAN COPLAN: No, no, that's it. I'm sure you'll learn more as I speak, but that's great. Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you are so welcome. And today, for those of you listening, Dr. Neff is not here, so I know if you just hear me speaking, you might be a bit bummed. But we are going to do a cool conversation on helping neurodivergent students transition into neuro-inclusive workplaces, and how to create neuro-inclusive workplaces. I think the employer portion of this is a huge part of the conversation.

So, tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing at Landmark. And why this kind of feels different than what's happening, you know, nationwide?

JAN COPLAN: So, my work is an umbrella over Landmark's mission to provide education that's accessible and to encourage students about the strengths of diagnosis. So, we have a very robust advising model at Landmark. And so, my office, basically, replicates that, that we work with students, individually, in groups, and really help them understand through assessment, and coaching, and work opportunities what the role their diagnosis plays in them finding a job, getting a job, and maintaining a job.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

JAN COPLAN: Again, from a strengths-based perspective.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that you say that. And that it's strengths-based, because I think so often when we're having these conversations, we're focusing on the deficits, we're focusing on the challenges, the struggles, which are all real. It's all a part of the experience, but acknowledging that there are strengths here, and unique strengths at that, in terms of how the brains work, and how different neurological variations show up, in terms of how we work, how we process information, ways that we can work in situations that we are set up for success.

So, I think the struggle a lot of the time is the employer section. The situation where it's like, okay, we understand how to talk about the strengths that neurodivergent candidates have in the workplace. How do we ensure that the employers are bought in, that the employers are creating a neuro-inclusive space? What's that like for you on your end?

JAN COPLAN: That's a large part of my mission is helping employers to see, first of all, to deconstruct the myth that in order to have a individual in the workplace that has an autism diagnosis or a neurodivergent diagnosis, it's not a huge overhaul of your workplace. They're not expensive accommodations. They can be very simple, allowing the individual to wear noise-canceling headphones, or someone with an ADHD diagnosis frequent break, so they can get up and walk around.

But also, helping them understand that, based on research that I've contributed to and the neurodivergent movement that I've been in, that when your workforce is diversified and has the elements of neurodivergence within it, your bottom line will just drastically be affected. So, I think there's this concern that it's going to be this costly accommodation process where, really, when that investment is made and that the right supervision is provided, your company/organization performs at a better rate. And that's all based in research and facts from companies that have these programs.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's such a huge, important point to make. Like, creating accessibility does not cost a fortune. And I think that is a common misconception of we've got to do all this monumental overhaul.

And there are some really low-cost, high rewards here. Like, if we're talking about incorporating noise-canceling headphones, if we're talking about changing the way our lighting is set up, the way that our physical office space is structured, and allowing for this reality of like, we don't need a one-size-fits-all workplace. And that doesn't work for most people.

And I think that if you're out there listening and you're an employer, and you're like, "Well, I don't employ neurodivergent humans, I don't think." I would argue that point intensely and acknowledging, like, you definitely employ neurodivergent humans. You may not know it if they're not openly talking about it. And you're going to come across neurodivergent humans. The neurodivergent umbrella is too big not to capture all different types of people, and strengths, and areas of how they can contribute to your organization.

JAN COPLAN: Absolutely. And I think it's really important to help people understand the definition is really evolved.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

JAN COPLAN: There was an association that when someone spoke about being neurodivergent, that was only the autism spectrum, whereas, now, I mean, the way that we've defined it in research and Landmark defines it, it includes ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia. In some definitions, it's PTSD. It's just a variation in the brain.

And the piece that I feel is really important it's, I feel like it's a social movement right now. How do we change people's mindset that neurological difference, as we said earlier, is not a deficit, it's an attribute, it's a strength?

And the employer, when they're considering hiring or diversifying their workforce, as you said, there's probably already diversity within, but are those individuals being supported in a way that they can be as successful as I've seen them be.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. And I think that's the delineation, right? Are they being supported, and are the accommodations being honored and met? And it is our duty as employers. Because I am an employer, I own a group practice that employs 25 humans, most of whom are either autistic, ADHD, or AuDHD. Are we meeting the accommodation requests? Are we normalizing accommodation requests? Are we openly talking about how we can become more affirming and more accessible? Or are we kind of saying as employers, well, this is the way we've always done it. Or, this is our traditional model. And this is what works for us. And we're not going to deviate.

And there are even things that we can do in terms of how do we structure our work hours. Like, for me-

JAN COPLAN: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

PATRICK CASALE: Mornings are out. Like, I cannot do the morning time because I don't sleep well, as so many autistic ADHD humans have trouble with sleep. So, are we going to require that everyone has to be in the office at eight in the morning, ready to go? Because that's not really realistic for a lot of the humans that we're talking about.

JAN COPLAN: Right. Also, I appreciate you bringing up that point, because what I've witnessed and have been working against for a while is even the interview structure or the recruiting structure.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

JAN COPLAN: [CROSSTALK 00:38:40] you have an application process that you go online, you look at the application, and it is a sea of words for a dyslexic individual. And that individual, from what I've witnessed, is very capable of doing the job that's being advertised. But because the means of recruiting that individual is inaccessible, they can't apply.

Or for some of the students I've worked with and our alumni, a series of numerous interviews that require a lot of conversation for a programming or a data entry position. I think employers need to consider is the job description reflecting and the interview process reflecting the role accurately. A lot of times, they're looking for a fit, you know, is this person to be able to go to the company barbecue? How are they going to be on the golf course? Things like that. Is that relevant to the job that they're going to be doing.

And yes, companies have culture, but diversifying that culture and allowing, like you said, these ways of people being able to be productive and contribute greatly to the company without having to go to the company party or being on the golf course for three hours conversing.

PATRICK CASALE: That is such a-

JAN COPLAN: [CROSSTALK 00:40:06 game, right? Its three-hour golf game would be [CROSSTALK 00:40:09].

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:40:09] nightmare for me.

JAN COPLAN: You get my point, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Well, I think that's such a great point of how… And I've been in a lot of leadership positions in my career, and maybe it's just because I was undiagnosed autistic, but I was always like, let's just get all of the fluff out of this conversation. Like, let's just get to the point, can this person do the job? And, you know, do they want the job?

And it always came down to that for me, instead of thinking about all of the other things. But I know when I was still masking and I didn't know that I was autistic, that I definitely went into interviews. And I was, like, unbelievably uncomfortable, but giving all of these different answers, and trying to add context, and trying to match eye contact, and trying to, like, sit in my seat comfortably without, like, stimming. And in reality, I was so uncomfortable.

And for my staff, right? Our interview process, you have the option of interviewing via email. I've hired people without ever speaking to them or seeing their faces, because I always ask, what is your preferred way to go through this process? Do you want a set of questions beforehand so you can prepare? Would you like to just have a conversation? Would you prefer a video call? Would you prefer to do it via text-based communication? And I think when employers hear that, they're like, "Well, that's a lot of different steps, and that feels really overwhelming to me." And-

JAN COPLAN: I think, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I'm just curious about some of the resistance that you might see at times for things that, to me, feel really natural and like simplistic. But a lot of people who are not AuDHD may not.

JAN COPLAN: You know, great point. There is resistance. In some cases, where this is the template, this is how we do it. But one thing that I have found is when either the student advocates or we present some examples of their work and projects that they've accomplished, there starts to be a little bit more of a flexible, okay, wow, this individual can really do the job. This is what we're looking for. Where can we be flexible?

And then, from what I've heard from the established programs that we have partnerships with, you know, various different corporations that have been recognized nationally and worldwide for their neuro-inclusive programs, is, as the years have gone on that they've had these programs, they are altering and improving the onboarding process, the interview process. A lot of them are doing it via, you know, show me, don't tell me. You know, show me examples or even gamification that they are developing these different… And that's not that I don't want every employer to feel like, oh, there's this ominous take on, but just having that growth mindset of, what can I do to provide a more accessible application process?

And maybe it does need to have an interview, but provide the questions beforehand. Let it be on video the first time, and then in person. But I loved your question, how can I assess your skills in a way that works to your strengths?

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. Yeah, and I think that's what it comes down to. And I think that it's also a reality check, where it's like, why don't we ask the applicant? You know, like, why don't we ask the applicant what they prefer or how they will feel the most comfortable? It's the little changes to the, like, this is how we've always done it mentality, air quotes, for those of you not watching. And it's also the reality of like, let's let self-determination be a factor. And little things like on a video call, if you're requiring an interview over video, offering permission not to make eye contact on that video call. It's just that little change in terms of this is so accessible and so accommodating, just to name it, just to say it out loud.

Or, for example, for those of you not watching, like having any sort of tactile toy or fidget be readily available. And I think it's just like allowing for that to be a part of the process. Because I think for a lot of us who have gone to interviews, if we need some sort of tactile stimulation or fidget to focus or feel regulated, and we don't have it because we feel shamed, or like we're going to be taken less seriously, or we're going to be called distracting, that is really a situation that is so easily taken care of by just allowing the permission to do what you need to do to take care of your needs.

JAN COPLAN: Right. Absolutely. I appreciate your point regarding the accommodation of not having to make eye contact. I had a really powerful experience about five years ago while I was prepping a student for an interview. And he was practicing the question. And he verbally said, "Excuse me, I'm not looking at you right now because I am processing. I am fully engaged in this conversation, but this helps me articulate my thoughts."

And that was pivotal for me, that this individual could take care of himself, but he could also educate the interviewer that I'm not distracted. I am not bored by our conversation. This is how I process my information.

So, these little adjustments, the willingness of employers or willing to just have an open mind, connect with the candidate or the employees that are already in their workforce. As you said, there are these individuals. It's just how safe, how affirmed are they in that workplace?

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. I love that that person was able to articulate that. And it seems like low-hanging fruit, you know what I mean? Like, being able to offer these little tweaks in how we create our processes and our policies, and how we create from interview, to onboarding, to what is the day-to-day look like. And if you have the ability to allow your staff to work remotely, offering the option of, do you think that you would be better suited to work remotely? Do you prefer to be in person? Is a hybrid of the combination better suited? Like, I love having very transparent conversations with everyone we hire about this preference.

We also have a communication style Google form that I created, where everyone fills it out about, like, how do you prefer to communicate? How do you prefer to process information? What's best in terms of offering feedback and support?

And I do individual check-ins with my staff, and we will do, "Hey, would you like to do it via text, email, phone call, video call, etc.?" Because I want to offer and honor the fact that everyone communicates and processes differently. If you met me and I was just very direct and "blunt" or straight to the point, you might think that I'm rude. You might think that I am, like, dismissing your perspective or idea. So, I have to name it before we even get started, so that we can have a mutual understanding of how to best support one another.

JAN COPLAN: Right, right. I think what I have found, Patrick, over the years is it's an ongoing dialog, because we want to empower the student, the candidate, the employee. But I find there are moments where a behavior or something has to be addressed so that they understand, sadly, the unwritten rules of the workplace. And it's not that they have to abide by all these formalities, but at the same time, I find I'm helping my students make those things clear. Is there an unwritten rule that everybody shows up at nine o'clock? You know various different things that happen when you walk down the hall, a quick greeting. You don't have to chat for a long time.

So, I'm constantly in dialog around what is professionalism? What's advocacy? How can you feel comfortable in the workplace being you, but at the same time, understanding the culture? A lot of our coursework, we have a course called The Employment Readiness Experience right now at Landmark, and we dialog all these things.

Because what I hear frequently is, I want to be told if I'm not doing something the right way. I don't want to, just like some of our students have had happen, find a box on my desk saying, "Hey, we decided to terminate this position." There's a lot of fear around that. And so, we are coaching our students around advocacy and regular check-ins.

And then, on the employer end, I'm educating them on how important it is to provide regular feedback and how you deliver that feedback. Because if there's a lot of assumptions made and it's not concrete, the individual is not going to get it. And it's not their fault.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Yeah, I like that you said that. And it is an ongoing, evolving, it's not a finite set of, like, the dialog is forever, right? Like, we always have to be having conversation and communication about all of this stuff from the employer side, from the employee side. So, I really like that you mentioned that.

How about, like, does Landmark play a role in terms of ever talking about, how do we unmask safely in the workplace? When to use disclosure about maybe a newfound diagnosis or identity? Is there any conversation around any of that?

JAN COPLAN: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. We have questions frequently from students around disclosure. And what I tell them is, there's no one hard and fast way. It depends on where you're applying. It depends on your comfort level with your supervisor knowing your diagnosis.

What we hear often from our corporate partners and our employers is, the sooner I know, the better I can support you. So, we bring them in, and they do, you know, Q&A sessions with our employers, and have that dialog, and get to feel out some of their concerns and hesitation.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

JAN COPLAN: But it's all individualized. It depends on the individual. And it depends on where they're applying. If they're applying to, we have partnerships with some camps that support the neurodivergent. You definitely want to disclose in your cover letter, your diagnosis or that you're neurodivergent, because you have a lived experience that those campers, that those employers are going to appreciate.

But also, we teach them ways to really research the company, its mission, and is it going to be an environment where you're going to feel safe disclosing and supported with your disclosure? And sadly, there's still a lot of businesses out there that have bias and assumptions. And it's my role, how do I educate those in those places? But that job description might look great, but the work environment might not be. I mean, legally, they have to provide accommodation, but how are they going to do that is very different place to place.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a good point. And Megan Anna and I talk about this on the podcast from time to time, of like, legally, they have to provide accommodation… but how are you going to be treated post disclosure? And are you going to be feeling different, or othered, or maybe bullied even, or discriminated against? It does happen in the workplace, and it's really unfortunate as we live in a iteration of society right now where autistic people might be feeling really under a microscope for a lot of different reasons, and a lot of misinformation out in the world right now about the autistic experience.

So, you have to disclose safely. I want everyone to hear that. Like, Megan Anna and I always talk about, like, pick and choose your moments. You have to do it safely. We want you to feel supported. We want you to feel seen. We want you to be able to unmask, but we want you to do it safely. And sometimes, the environment is just not the right place, unfortunately. So, you do have to just kind of find out what feels safe for you and what feels comfortable for you. And I think that's going to be different for everyone.

JAN COPLAN: And you know what I have seen as a really powerful stepping stone is where the candidate talks about what they need to be successful. Like, when you were talking about, how do you prefer to be interviewed? And if they're not feeling safe about disclosing, they can advocate and request, "I do my best work when…" Or, "You're going to really see my strengths and my productivity if these things could be provided to me."

And, you know, as they're working and getting to know their supervisor and the culture, they can, they can ask for more and more of those things. But I even tell students, you know, in your interview, bring it up, "My best work is done, and would your workplace provide that?"

So, there's not a disclosure, but there's a… Because I tell them, they're interviewing the company as well as the company's interviewing them.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. That is a very good point. You are interviewing the company wherever you are trying to obtain employment. And you want to make sure that it's a mutual fit. Culturally, you want to make sure that it's a mutual fit for the place that you're going to be employed and for you. Both of those things are important and equally true. So, very, very good point.

Pivoting a little bit to what you're doing at Landmark. And I know you have, like, a career fair coming up. But you mentioned to me pre-recording, you really wanted to put the emphasis on the employer piece of that in this component. So, tell me a little bit about what that looks like and why that feels really important in in this event?

JAN COPLAN: Sure, so we are doing our first ever neurodivergent friendly career fair. So, it's October 22nd, in the gym at Landmark. And we designed it in a way that it will include employers who have already hosted our students as interns or have hired them. And it will include local employers that are interested in learning about our students and have an interest in recruiting them.

But the key factor that I think is different from a lot of career fairs is it's only going to be Landmark students. We've had some folks reach out to us. You know, "Could we bring our high school students?"

And we're saying no, primarily, because the goal is for our students to feel comfortable in the environment that they have people that they're classmates and professors around them. Because for many students, this is a really daunting experience. There's a lot of stimuli. There's a lot expected of them. They're having to pitch their strengths, their skills, and network. So, we wanted to reduce as many stress factors as possible.

Yes, we want the employers, we're doing a training in the morning, before the career fair that myself and some of our corporate partners are doing, a gentleman from EY and a gentleman from SOHO Solutions. We are training the employers on how to navigate a career fair like this and how best to work with our students.

So, not to mention not just the career fair, but if they decide to interview, and hire, and, you know, promote them, what are the best ways to do that? So, it's taking a very different approach, but primarily, to send out the message that this is the effective way to hire and support not only the employer's growth and understanding of neurodivergence, but the student's understanding of themselves in an environment like this.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Yeah, that sounds like a really affirming way to kind of handle this with a lot of intentionality and thoughtfulness of saying, "Hey, this is going to be specifically for students. We're going to try as hard as we can to minimize the sensory impact. And we're going to try really hard to ensure that employers understand why the sensory stuff is so overwhelming, why the students are going to be maybe overwhelmed in certain situations."

I think, like you said, it's daunting, regardless of neurotype or neurology. Like, career fairs, figuring out next steps in your life, figuring out, like, where do I want to be professionally? Stuff is daunting as well. So, I really like that you're doing it this way, and it sounds like a really supportive event and environment as well.

JAN COPLAN: Yes, it's all about, you know, I use this term called success momentum, right? That our students need, many of them need little stepping stones of feeling successful. Majority are coming to us having had some pretty traumatic experiences in education and potentially, doubting their ability to ever get a job.

And I've seen that in meeting with students, there's a nervousness, even when they take an assessment about, you know, what are your skills and interests, that they can interpret that in a way that, oh, boy, these are the jobs that I'm only going to be able to do. And I want them to understand this is a progression. Just like you go from being a freshman to a senior, your career is going to have that progression, but you have to continue to expose yourself, take these risks, because with the risks come a lot of benefits.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

JAN COPLAN: So, just helping them to realize you start with a campus internship. And what I love seeing, as small as we are, and the employers that we worked with, and are continuing to recruit into our circle, are very few. I can name two in my 10 years of being here that have not been successful placements. One was on the student's part, that wasn't what they envisioned it to be, and one was on the employer's part that they didn't have the bandwidth to oversee in the midst of change.

So, that's what I think, not all schools can do that. We're very lucky at Landmark. But I really want the employers to understand we know our students. And our students know themselves. So, these fairs are an opportunity to break the myths that are out there that this population requires all the support, or that they only have certain strengths in IT. I mean, you should see the array of resumes I'm looking at right now as students are preparing. Their skills are across the board.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure, yeah.

JAN COPLAN: So, just helping people to understand how impactful the neurodivergent population can be in a workplace.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that, really do. It's a great mission. And I said this before, I think when Christopher was on the podcast a couple months ago, I wish I had known about a college like Landmark when I was growing up, because it would have been unbelievably helpful for me in so many ways, instead of having that traditional, overwhelming college experience that I and so many people have had.

So, congrats on the work that you all are doing. And I think that this is a wonderful, wonderful mission, and certainly a unique one in the college and academic world.

Any final takeaways for the audience who's listening before we wrap up?

JAN COPLAN: I would just ask those listening today to, when I present, I always ask the audience whether, depending on, even if they're very experienced in this realm or new to this realm, what assumptions, what biases might you have that you might not be aware that you have?

And full disclosure, I had them myself, so I'm not throwing any stones. So, I would love people to just consider, you know, what's preventing you from opening up your application process, or making your business more accessible for individuals that are facing so many barriers? I mean, the unemployment rate of this population is abysmal, and it doesn't need to be that way. So, just that kind of checking in, what's preventing me?

And there's resources out there. Landmark is a resource. We provide trainings. There's resources if you want to embark on this process, and just you know, consider accessing them.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. It's a great takeaway for everyone listening. So, Jan, thank you so much for coming on and making the time. And we're excited to have partnered with Landmark several times in the last year, and wishing you a lot of success on the upcoming career fair as well and the rest of the academic year.

JAN COPLAN: Thank you so much. It was great to talk to you.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And make sure to follow us on social media. See you next week.