Episode 11: Sensory Overload and Social Engagement — The Autistic Experience in Group Settings

Show Notes

Socializing in groups can feel exhausting and often adds an entirely different level of complexity to the sensory experience and challenges for autistic individuals.

Patrick Casale, an AuDHD mental health therapist, shared his thought processes and some of the questions that run through his head when in group conversations, such as, "When do I interrupt? When do I not? When do I jump in? When do I not? When do I stay quiet? When do I avoid adding commentary?"

Dr. Neff shared that she shows up differently in conversations with people one-on-one than in group settings, and gave the example that in her one-on-one conversations with Patrick during the podcast episodes, her "analytical brain is able to pretty much go offline" and she gets immersed in the conversation, but said that she can very rarely do that in groups.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, share their experiences around communication in various social settings.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand what tracking is and how it plays a role in social interactions and regulation for autistic individuals.
2. Identify ways to reduce stress and overwhelm that is related to social interactions and sensory overload in group settings.
3. Learn how to balance the personal needs of autistic individuals with the needs of other members of their inner circle who are allistic.

It's important to find ways to support mental well-being through the struggles of emotional overwhelm and sensory overload that many autistic individuals face on a daily basis. Social interactions and experiences can be different for everyone, so we encourage you to make the effort to find ways to do restorative self-care and prioritize social activities that align with your values and needs.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: So, Patrick, I kind of thought we could actually pick up today where we left off last week. And by left off, I mean, actually, what happened after we hit the stop recording button.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, last week, we recorded with Thomas Hensley. And we were experiencing things in the moment while recording that you and I were talking about afterwards. And I know you were thinking about that throughout the week, and wanted to talk more about what was actually happening, and how you were experiencing that conversation, and vice versa. So, what was coming up?

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Before I answer that, I just kind of want to do a bird eye commentary as I do. One thing I've noticed… so we have now launched and we have a few episodes out, and we're getting feedback, and you and I have recorded, this is our 10th episode. One thing I was reflecting on that I think we're doing that's, A, pretty vulnerable, and I think we both named that but B, I think what has the potential to be really helpful for folks is we are bringing our lived experience and then we're also kind of analyzing it or putting it in a frame from also being mental health therapists. But what we're also doing, this is the part that feels more vulnerable is in the moment processing. 

And this is actually my favorite kind of therapy because it's so raw, it's so powerful. This is happening for me now. And I think we're able to talk about it in a way that's both centered, like centered in our experience, but also decentered. And by decentered, I mean, bringing, oh, this is interesting, from like a therapeutic psychological perspective. 

So, that's the bird's eye view of like, I kind of see that as not the whole thing we're doing here. We're not just like analyzing ourselves for an hour every week, that'd be weird. But it's definitely a part of the conversation we're having. So, in that vein, that's kind of where I wanted to dive into this.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I appreciate you naming that. And I think that's true. I noticed, like, it's a complex conversation every week where there's a lot of layer. And I'm always tracking you, which is something I don't know if I'm doing that out of like, feeling protective of your energy or what we're talking about. But I did notice that last week while we were talking, I noticed you stimming a lot more than usual, I noticed you kind of rocking back and forth. I was watching your face and your expression a lot of the time when I was talking. And I think that these conversations are so nuanced, and complicated, and layered, and vulnerable, like you just mentioned. 

So, there's so much happening all at the same time, when you're trying to have like, a cohesive conversation too. And like, I'm really trying to think about like, what am I saying? Does it even make sense what I'm talking about? Is it landing the right way? A lot of analytics in my mind that are always kind of happening, which is basically every single experience of every day of my fucking life.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: It's busy, it's a lot. Like, no wonder we're tired. Yeah, it's a ton. So, yeah, there were there kind of two things, two threads I wanted to explore. One was what you just named of like, you were tracking me. And I actually think it's related to alexithymia, which is what we were talking about last week. 

I've had this really interesting experience of, I identify both as an empath and alexithymic, which is a weird combo, but where I'm absorbing other people's energy and I can usually, like, identify like, okay, this is what it is, and, you know, bring in my analytical mind. But I have a really hard time tracking myself. And I kind of think it's because I'm so cute into others along with, like, other alexithymia traits. 

But what was interesting was we hit stop recording, and you were like, "Are you okay?" And I knew I was, like, I've been sick the last three weeks. I knew it wasn't awesome. But the level of concern in your voice was like this aha moment of like, "Oh, yeah, I'm not really okay." 

And I've had that experience, typically, with my neurodivergent friends or my empath friends, where they'll kind of look at me and be like, "Are you okay?" And it hits as like, kind of, "Oh shit." Moment of like, I didn't realize I wasn't okay, and then someone asked me that. And I'm like, they're picking up something that obviously I'm not fully experiencing or understanding. 

So, that was one of the things I found really interesting about last week, was just you were picking up things that I wasn't picking up and I didn't realize till I had time to reflect on it afterwards.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I know you mentioned to me that you also hate that question like, are you okay? So…

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: But it's also interesting that you interpreted my, "Are you okay?" Like, in a different way than when we would start an episode and be like, how's it going today? Like, that's always [CROSSTALK 00:05:12].

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, there's concern in your voice. I think I feel exposed when people ask me are you okay and I'm not. It's like, "Oh." And maybe it's like, I thought I was hiding that better than I was, or someone is seeing through me, and they're seeing something I'm not yet seeing. And actually, I think that happens in therapy a lot for autistic people is when our therapists offer reflections that we haven't yet seen in ourselves. That can feel really intrusive.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, really intrusive. And it's also probably the sign of good, like [CROSSTALK 00:05:48] therapist, right? 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: That happened to me last week. Like, we got off our podcast, I saw my therapist a day later, she mentioned something where I was not recognizing it yet. And she was already reading what was happening in the moment for me as I was processing what she was saying, and she's like, "Are you interpreting what I'm saying like this? And are you experiencing it this way?" And I was like, "Oh, yes, I am." But in the moment, there's like this layer, right? Of like, I'm outside of this experience looking in and I do feel like it is on the verge of the alexithymia/dissociation conversation. 

But I also think, maybe that's so often how we move through life as where we are trying so hard to not be vulnerable, and trying so hard to protect ourselves from how the world sees us. And then, if we're really attuned, and we're really picking up on these subtle movements, and subtle gestures and expressions, and I think it's even goes further than just being a trained therapist. It's like, being a trained neurodivergent therapist makes it even, like, more in focus and clarity for me, and for you, it sounds like as well. And I think that's what I was picking up on. It's just like these little subtle things where I was like, I've been recording with you for almost three months now. And that was the first time I had seen a pretty… and I can't even say the word is not drastic, because it's not drastic, but it was definitely like there was a big difference. 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: You knew it was because you knew what to look for. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, I'm curious what you saw. Like, I mean, maybe you already answered that, you saw me stimming and swaying, but like, there's something about my face, you said… Or even, you mentioned like, I went more analytic, like I went more cognitive.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think that was something in my mind is you had mentioned to me at one point that if you go really cognitive, if you go really analytic, that's a safe space, right? Like, that's when I'm feeling really uncomfortable and that's when I feel really confident in myself to show up and talk because I can almost like, disconnect because that part of the brain just takes over and I don't really have to drop into what's happening for me, in my body, or just emotionally. 

So, I asked you the question last week, like, are you going to this place in your brain because you're uncomfortable? And you pivoted very well. Like, very, like, trained response of like, "No, this is where I feel the most confident and we're talking about something clinical." And I was like, "Okay, cool."

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Like, partly that might have been true, but like, I think you're absolutely right. It's a safer place for me. And I think, so here's what, this was kind of my aha moment after we recorded and I was thinking about how I showed up differently. 

And again, I don't even know that listeners will notice it, but you're very hyper-vigilant in your tracking, which I'm sure comes from honest masking, among other things. But that was the very first time we've had a conversation that wasn't a one-on-one conversation, it was a group conversation. And it's so interesting. I think people do have such a different experience of me if it's one-on-one versus group. I think it's why I became a therapist and not a couple's therapist. I work one-on-one with people, I show up really differently. 

When you and I are talking, even though we're recording for apparently thousands of people, the analytical brain is able to pretty much go offline and I get immersed in our conversation. And I can't do that in groups. Rarely, rarely can I do that in groups.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that you're naming that because it again, exemplifies what you said to begin this conversation of like what we're doing in the moment, of how we're conversating and also, how we're bringing it back with this, like, clinical lens to dissect some of this stuff. 

And it's so interesting because in groups I do exactly what I was doing last week, which is I kind of attune and track the people who I really care about. And then, I'm very concerned about, like, how they're experiencing the group dynamic. And I had never met Thomas, wonderful human being. But you two had already had conversation before and some relationships. So, I was like, okay, when do I talk? I was feeling like we were, you even mentioned this, like, it was very, what's the word? 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Repetitive?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah repetitive and it almost turned into this, like, loop sensation where like you would talk and Thomas would talk, then I would talk, then you would talk. We never had, like, you mentioned something that I jump in and or vice versa. It was shifting and transitioning in a way where it was like, very regimented, and very, almost rigid in a way in terms of like, even though it wasn't being named.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah and I think that, I imagine this is a really common experience for a lot of autistic people. Like, there's a spontaneity to one-on-one conversation, a playfulness even that I can tap into that in groups… And I think it is because I'm doing so much work in my prefrontal cortex to analyze the conversation. 

So, I noticed this afterwards, I was much less in the experience, and much more up here in my prefrontal cortex of, A, I was feeling a lot more ADHD, and I was like, needing to intentionally be like, okay, pull your focus in, pull your focus in. But I would be listening to Thomas, especially, to then figure out, okay, what is he saying that then I can, like, add to or because I kind of once we fell into that, like, circles, like, okay, it's my turn to talk now. 

And so, I'd be listening to him, but I wouldn't be immersed in the listening. It'd be like, listening to figure out what could I add to? Or what could I associate to from something he had said, which is a very different way of listening. It's not an experiential like when you talk, Patrick, there might be some of that happening, but it's more like, I'm in it, I'm listening, I'm curious. It's not like, let me listen to then figure out what to say next, and then script out what I'm going to say next in my head. So, that sort of analytical, the mask, I would say, is so much more present in groups for me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think for me, too, and I was doing a lot of that like trying to figure out okay, this is what's being said, how do I respond? Or how am I going to frame my response? So, again, that's taking you out of being, like, as present as can be in terms of conversation. 

But then there's this anxiety that creeps up and not being as present in conversation and trying to like, because I don't do well with like, structured robotic response. I have a really hard time thinking like, okay, point A is this, point B is this, point C is this. I have to be very spontaneous in conversation to have it feel genuine, and authentic, and just to feel like it's actually a part of. Otherwise, I feel like I'm on the outside looking into it. And I'm not really participating as much. 

So, it was very interesting. And I think that for me, you just mentioned like, maybe high masking, or whatever the case may be, I've always tracked body language, and facial expression, and everything. And in group conversation, it's so much energy to constantly track like- 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: …Megan's face, Thomas's face, body movement, posture, how am I feeling in relation to how both of them are… they are feeling? And I'm like, I don't even fucking know what's happening anymore.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm(affirmative). It's really overstimulating. Like, it's been interesting. It's something I write about, so I'm thinking about, so I'm just… and if you're doing an autism assessment, you really have to look at social skills, one-on-one for social skills in a group. 

And the more I think about it, I mean, I think there's a lot. I think, for one, it's the fact that there's so many conversations going on, there's so much unpredictability and spontaneity, and that's just a lot to be coming at us. But it's a really sensory overwhelming experience to be in a group and to be, especially, with that bottom-up processing style, where, you know, we take in details, all the little details, and then build up to a big picture. 

So, the sensory and cognitive experience of being around all these bodies, tracking, I actually don't think I track quite as much as you do. I think I dissociate more in groups. And then, taking in people's information, taking in the body noises. Like, it is a really overstimulating environment. So, I think a lot of us enter some sort of stressed body state and it's really hard to be socially engaged when we're in a stressed body state. 

So, I'm beginning to think about groups more through a sensory lens than, I mean, and they're not totally separate. But more than a, like, social communication deficit. I think we're sensory overloaded in groups, and the processing style, and like knowing when do I interject? And what do I say? And that part's hard too.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think it's absolutely both. And it is the sensory overwhelm for sure. And, you know, I think I notice that when I'm out socially too, like, if I'm with one person a hell of a lot easier to conversate, be quiet when I want to be quiet, know when to respond if I need to respond. But when you're in a group setting, and you're having that bottom-up thinking experience, and let's just say you're in a restaurant, let's say you're in a bar, let's say you're in a loud environment, and then you're also adding into the mix people that are not part of your group, you're adding in all the stimulation behind the scenes, the light, the noises, the other people, the other energy, all the things that are happening, and all of a sudden it's like, I will find myself shutting down and really almost having this, like, panic moment where I look like a deer in the headlights situation. And I'm just like, "Oh, shit, I really don't know how to proceed here comfortably."

And I think this will eventually be a segue into a future conversation that we've alluded to many times, but that is where substance use comes in for so many autistic people. 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. 

PATRICK CASALE: Because it's like, well, at least alcohol will numb my nervous system and my overwhelm.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely went to alcohol back when I was socializing. That's funny but true. And because, one, it like dulls the senses, so I want to be sensory overloaded too like that, you know, liquid confidence, that is not always a good thing. So, the filter or the mask kind of would go off, which would make me more comfortable in groups. 

Now, after the alcohol would wear off, I'd go home and like come through every conversation I'd had and like, "I can't believe I said this or that." But yeah, I absolutely think there's a reason that we are so vulnerable to, particularly, alcohol misuse.

PATRICK CASALE: You think this is why like, and I've never been a part of this community, but I think that maybe it makes sense why so many people that are autistic, or ADHD, or just neurodivergent, in general, are parts of like gaming clubs, where you don't really have to socialize in terms of like actual communication, but you're doing something active and participating.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely because it's parallel play, which autistic people, particularly, really like. It's interesting, I was reading through a couple's book that is supposedly neurodivergent affirming. I keep using air quotes and realizing listeners can't see my air quotes. I don't actually think we have social communication deficits. That was an air quote. Anyways, I just used an air quote, and ADHD, bring back my thought, okay, book. 

So, like was purporting to be neurodivergent affirming, but then went on to say like, watch out for parallel play, like as if it's a bad thing and in a dyad. And I do think it's important if you're in an autistic allistic relationship to make sure both partners are having quality time. But parallel play is a really meaningful, soothing way for us to connect. I think it's one of many reasons I married my spouse was we were really good at parallel play, we'd go to coffee shops, and we both like reading and writing. And we'd just do that for hours when we're dating. 

So, yeah, I think parallel playgroups is a really great way to connect or even groups that have structure. So, like D&D. Like, my kids both love D&D, and there's, I think, a lot of autistic people in the D&D space because it's structured. There's roles, there's rules, it's not that spontaneous thing. 

And I mean, I think we should be thinking about unpredictable conversation through a sensory lens as well. Like, that sensory cognitive information we're taking in. I've done well in book clubs because again, we have an object that we are talking about versus just free-floating conversation. I still do better one-on-one, but you know, book groups, or if I'm leading a group, back when I was teaching, I led a lot of process groups, which is interesting. I would have struggled to be a member of the process group, but I can lead it.

PATRICK CASALE: It is interesting. I think those are all really good points too, the structure, and the role, and knowing that there's a common goal here. And I think it also takes pressure off, of like having to be responsive or respond a certain way, or tracking constantly. I don't know if it completely shuts off the tracking and attunement of terms of energy absorption from just other people's energy, but I do think it alleviates a lot of the stress and overwhelm that comes with socializing. 

And then, I'm thinking about, like, just conversations in group settings like that, in general, when you start to notice where they are becoming kind of looped in or not robotic and rehearsed, but really, like, I'm struggling with transitions, you mentioned struggling with transitions all the time. So, it's interesting because then you're starting to track like, when do I talk? When do I not talk? Am I being rude if I'm about to say something? Or should I like, wait and hesitate? 

And that process, right? That like, I know I'm making these motions now too, and like, my stupid camera tracks my motion. So, like, when you're starting to do that, thinking about how much energy goes into that process, which might sound really simplistic for some people to be like, "Oh, when do I interrupt? When do I not? When do I jump in? When do I not? When do I stay quiet? When do I avoid like, adding commentary?" Just saying that out loud is exhausting. And then like, the actual experience of that is even more exhausting emotionally. And it makes sense too. 

And. you know, we're mainly focusing on like, the autistic side of this right now. But the ADHD side, right? Of like spontaneity, and like, I want to jump in because I'm either going to get distracted, or I don't want to forget what I'm going to say. And that can be really challenging, too, if you're trying to record a podcast and like, every time Megan talks, I'm talking, and that becomes chaos as well.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I was like, that's funny. I was just thinking about ADHD. And I think when I'm more in my ADHD self, it's interesting, groups in the moment feel easier for me, but I have more rumination afterward. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree with that. 

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Because I like, yeah, impulsively said things, and then because of the autistic parts because I impulsively say things that are not context-appropriate and yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: But do you think like, when the ADHD part is more prevalent, that it feels easier to socialize in some ways?

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, it feels easier, but then there's more shame afterwards. And so, I think I even would coach myself to like, okay, when you're in groups, like, I always do so much self-monitoring. Like, don't say anything, or here's your rules for talking, or like, in class, if it was a subject I was really into, I'd want to talk a lot, and I'd make rules for myself. Like, you can only raise your hand three times. Like, there's a lot of self-monitoring to control the excitement and the impulsivity. And it is absolutely easier. But then, yeah, way more shame. 

When I'm more on my autistic part, yeah, I'm pretty disconnected, I'm pretty foggy, I don't really say anything. Like, my parents have noticed that when we gather as a family. And when we gather as a family it's a high sensory experience of six kids, six adults, wait, eight adults. I can't do math, adults and kids, and conversation. And my dad has noticed, he's like, "Yeah, I noticed you seem pretty, you just shut down." And I'm just, "Yeah, it's low-key dissociation." And that's harder, but then I'm not ruminating afterward.

PATRICK CASALE: So, in my best therapist voice of what I hear you saying is both come with significant social struggles, and challenges, and potential aftermath, and fallout?

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I think for me it's interesting. I think, where I've landed, I've decided it's easier to do the autistic, I'm not in the experience. Now, if it's a group that I was really excited about, and that like pulled out natural passion, I think it would feel good to be more in my ADHD part. But for most groups, my default at this point is the more autistic part. In my 20s, it probably would have been more the ADHD part.

PATRICK CASALE: That's interesting. I could see that just based on how you've kind of framed your day-to-day. And that probably makes sense and what serves you in terms of self-preservation, too. I find myself vacillating quite a bit. Like, the ADHD part will definitely take over and be like, I want to be social, and I want to go do things. But then I pay for it afterwards. And I think that that's a constant push/pull, like tug of war, essentially, of like, knowing that I want and need to be social, but also knowing that my socializing has significant limitations and significant ramifications. 

So, I know we've talked about this before, like, for both of us just sometimes discussing grief around socialization and connection, but it's challenging. And I try really hard to not be that person that's going to jump in, and interrupt, and with potential divergent flight of ideas, so I've really realized, like, we've both kind of said that most of our social connections and relationships are probably with other neurodivergent human beings who don't get it, and we're probably going to be thinking or doing the same things that we're doing in those moments too.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I was just thinking of one of your major social outlets, which is soccer, which is another like parallel play experience.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I don't have to think about anything there. You know, you have a common goal. You might communicate, like, based about like, movement, and possession, and whatever. But you're not like having conversations during games, which is wonderful. And it's probably one of the only places my brain goes to, to just be at peace. And I think that's why this ever-expanding injury list that I continue to accrue as a 36-year-old is frustrating because I am starting to have this realization of like, this is not a forever thing. Like, you can't go play competitive soccer as you get older, and you keep getting injured, and all the things. 

But my fear and anticipatory grief is this is all I know, to socialize in a way where I feel centered, and at peace, and without restriction or overwhelm. I think that's scary in a way for me too. It's also, there's identity there, that's a very complicated conversation. But like, it's scary. Because, you know, people say, "What do you like to do?" I'm like, "I don't know, I've played soccer since I was five. I don't know what I like to do. Like, this is what I do every week." So, it's challenging.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: I mean, that's an interesting… I mean, there's so many podcasts we could do. But like the aging process, and being autistic ADHD of… and a lot of us have chronic pain. I've had chronic pain for the last 10 years. Thankfully, I've recently had some relief from that. But like, I lost so many outlets that were really good for me, I would say good for my ADHD, well, and my autism. I used to do hit training and I used to be really into fitness. And I've kind of lost all that skill in the last three years when my chronic pain got really bad. 

So, this idea of aging, but then also just navigating chronic medical conditions that often come with autism and ADHD, and how that makes a world that's already pretty small, like so much smaller when we lose access to those things. So, yeah, the idea of like, if you've been doing soccer since five, of course, that's part of your identity, how you connect socially, sounds like so many sources of meaning there, that's got to be daunting to think about. I would say you've got… you're 36, you're young in my book, probably got some time [CROSSTALK 00:27:44]-

PATRICK CASALE: Hopefully, yeah. It is daunting, you know because I've had some significant injuries like, I tore my left hip labrum last week, tore my right hip labrum five years ago. So, it is this constant chronic pain and chronic back issues, all this stuff, and starting to think like, because I need intensity and sensation seeking in my life, where to replace that with I think is also challenging. 

And I know for a lot of you listening, socializing, and just even thinking about joining a sports team or a group is so intimidating and can feel like that brings up an enormous amount of challenge and potential for just being alienated, or having a lot of struggle in that arena. 

So, I think that could definitely be an episode where we talk about how to connect, and ideas for socializing, and just even if it's minimal, but yeah, it's daunting, and what you don't want it to turn into, at least, well, I shouldn't say what you don't, that's a generalizing statement, what I don't want it to turn into is then becoming inactive because I need to be active because of how much, like, I was talking to you about proprioceptive, like, struggle I have, and like the intense overwhelm/like pressure feeling that I constantly have in my body that I need to ground or regulate. So, losing mobility is fucking scary.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it is and that's like, I mean, I know this isn't our substance use topic, but it connects. That's when I fell into an unhealthy relationship with alcohol was when I didn't have access to… I used to do a good hour, at least four times a day of like really pretty intense training and once I lost access to that, like the stimulus seeking, the endorphins and dopamine I got from that left me just, I think, really vulnerable to then look for liquid dopamine via alcohol. 

So, for me my chronic pain and then my disordered relationship to alcohol were so related, which then, of course, that can set off… and I see this a lot that, like, back when I worked in the hospital, like, you see… and they're logical. That's what's so hard to work with them as a provider, you see these, I'm drawing a circle with my hand for people who aren't watching on YouTube. You see these patterns that make so much sense of like something happens, chronic pain, you start self-coping with something like alcohol, which then exasperates mood, like, and then it's just you're off to the races running with a really unhealthy cycle. 

And again, for so many reasons, autistic ADHD people are way more vulnerable to falling into those cycles.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that for so many of us who are constantly struggling with so much emotional overwhelm, and sensory overload, and just existence, having that one thing to look forward to, if it's taken away, for whatever reason, it's so easy to fall into these pitfalls of despair, and hopelessness, and reliance on substance or process because you're trying so desperately to just feel better for 30 seconds of your day. And it's quite the challenge and paradox too when you start to think about Canadian side, Northern New York side come out, other alternatives because like, we're diverging so much in this episode. I love it. I think like-

DR: MEGAN NEFF: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:25]. It feels organic. I feel immersed in it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Do you?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think this is exactly what we were trying to highlight comparatively to group experience. I think about trying new hobbies at 36. It's not too old, like you just said, but I'm like, "What the fuck do I like? I don't even know what I like." 

And I think so many of us struggle to say like, these are the areas I feel really passionate about, or these are the hobbies that I truly enjoy, or the things that I look forward to. 

And for those of you who struggle to identify something, I don't think you're alone in that. I think it's really commonplace to say, I don't really know. And I also think that's why we get so connected into online relationships and online connections because it just creates a little bit less vulnerability when it comes to socializing as well.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm, like, going back to mid statement to respond to something you said earlier, not the end of your statement. But I really like this concept, so I'm going to share it. Something I talk about with folks a lot is cheap self-care or like Glennon Doyle, in one of her books talks about the easy button. But cheap self-care versus like, kind of really restorative self-care. And I think restorative self-care takes more time and energy. It's going on a hike in nature, it's joining a soccer team, which then there's all those, you know, social barriers. It's figuring out the hobbies you like. But it's the kind of self-care that doesn't just feel good in the moment but actually restores. Cheap self-care is in the moment it feels good, afterwards it takes a toll on you. 

And I think there's so many reasons that we're more vulnerable to gravitate toward cheap self-care. Yeah, yeah. And especially, for the things you mentioned of. It's hard to know hobbies in adulthood and connect with hobbies, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And connect with people.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: And connect with people, yeah. And I know you have a different experience around this than me, but I was raised in a fundamentalist evangelical tradition. That gave me a lot of both structured community, but also, structured meaning. I no longer identify as religious and I'm not a part of a religious community anymore. And I feel really good about that. 

But I miss the like, I think religious was designed by humans to create community. And I haven't found a good replacement yet. And I feel that, especially, as an autistic ADHD 39-year-old, of like, and my spouse and I talk about it a lot of because we were both raised fundamentalists, we're not raising our kids in a religious community thinking about where do we plug them into like, a source of meaning, a source of community? Because we don't have that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's a really good point. And I think that structure is so crucial. And I know you want to and we will do an entire episode on religion, and autism, and how susceptible autistic people can be to become parts of really structured extreme religion too because of the structure, and the control, and the consistency, and the-

DR: MEGAN NEFF: It hits all the autistic boxes, like, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: All the autistic boxes. So, but yeah, you're right. I mean, where do you plug your kiddos in and where do you plug yourselves in into the community? And I had a conversation on my other podcast today, the All Things Private Practice Podcast, with a LMFT, a licensed family marriage and family therapist in North Carolina about creating anti-ableist practices. And she was just talking about, like, living in an ableist society. I mean, you're just going back to it over and over again. So, whatever practices we create, or, you know, try to incorporate society is inherently ableist. 

So, there are not a lot of great places that feel affirming, and connecting, and safe in a lot of ways. So, I think that becomes really complicated when you're trying to figure out like, where do I spend my time? Or where do I want to use my limited capacity and spoons, essentially, to say, like, if I'm going to do something, and I know it's going to take a toll, where's that going to be?

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, selective, I think we have to get really honed in on what our values are and be really selective. Okay, I realize every day things get compared to cancer a lot, and so, I don't necessarily… I have feelings about bringing this metaphor, but it's part of my context because I worked in oncology for a while. And when you are going through chemo or cancer treatment, you have to get so selective about your activities, partly because of how fatiguing it is, but also, you have this existential like, I don't know how much time I have left. 

So, that was something I would talk a lot about with my patients of like, what… and we kind of tease it out. I use the green light, yellow light, red light system for this of like, what cost you the most energy, and then what most aligns with your values. 

So, for example, like yellow light activity cost you some energy, but if it's like really highly aligns with your meaning, and purpose, and values like that's a good activity to prioritize. If it's yellow light, and like doesn't align properly, like that's probably something that can go. 

But I think thinking almost two tracks, I'm using so many hand motions, is how I talk, isn't how I've always talked, but if we have like two tracks in our mind, energy expenditure, and then meaning and purpose, and are kind of mapping our decisions out that way, I think it's something we have to do because we do have limited resources and like you're saying, so many of the actions we do, we then are confronted by an ableist system, or society, or community.

PATRICK CASALE: I really like that. I like that imagery too because I think that makes a lot of sense for those of you listening and for myself too, to think about when you're thinking about self-preservation, and intentionality, and energy conservation, and the tax, and toll that a lot of stuff takes on our systems to try to identify it in a way that is values-oriented, and acknowledging like if it is a high value, and I know it's going to take energy, it's probably worth it. But if it's not highly something, not highly, if it's not something I value highly, and if it's going to take x amount of energy, is it worth pursuing or engaging in? 

And the answer is probably no, unless you absolutely have to, and I'm being weary of time because I know what time it is, but we could diverge that conversation into something as well because some of these activities that are red lights, right? And they don't align are part of a lot of your day-to-day and daily necessities, like your job that you've [CROSSTALK 00:39:00] but you have to go to and survival. So, that's like such a big existential conversation of then what?

DR: MEGAN NEFF: It really is, it really is. So, yes, so many red light activities go to survival which is why when autistic people can make a career out of special interests, or ADHD people out of their passions, like, oh my gosh, do it so that it's at least a yellow light activity, your eight to five or whatever hours you work. 

The other thing that gets complex, I work with a lot of parents, and our values are in conflict with our children's values. So, for example, I really do not like holidays. I do not like family gatherings. I like dread them, typically, for like a month before and fantasize about getting sick so that I don't have to go. I'm so sorry my family if you're listening to this, I do love you, it's a terrible sensory.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:39:56]. And I feel the exact same way. So, if you're also listening, I love you, and I feel that way. That's real.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: But my kids, I want to give my kids the family experience, the holiday experience. So, there's plenty of times that I choose a red light activity for me because it's a high value, not necessarily for me. Like, I'd rather connect with my family one-on-one but because it's a high-value activity for my children, this is really hard for autistic parents. We're constantly, like, our needs, and then our needs of our children can live in conflict, and a lot of times we have to, and we should be choosing the needs of our children, absolutely. 

But it adds a whole other layer that's really complicated. Your look is just like, I'm so glad I don't have kids right now.

PATRICK CASALE: That's Megan reading me really well. Yeah, I'm not going to lie about that. I think that I would struggle. I have a hard enough time committing to like, things that I, "Know that I should commit to." Like, weddings, graduation parties, holidays, in general. Like, all the things. And for me, I do feel like those are red-light activities. But values coming into play, I know how important a lot of that stuff is for my wife. So, I often will say, and she acknowledges this, and she's listens to this podcast, I know she's going to hear this, but she understands the mental exhaustion and sensory overwhelm taxation that comes with committing to going to a family event. Her family is quite large. I mean, we're talking 50 to 60 people at most events, lovely family, just a lot of energy and a lot of absorption. So, I really have to almost mentally prepare myself for almost a month anytime I agree to go to any event or holiday gathering or anything like that. 

But again, red light activity, high-value system because I know how important it is for her. So, it is this like trade-off in a lot of ways in terms of how do you navigate the world in different neuro types in partnership, and I think that could also be a episode as well.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we should absolutely talk about couples because, in dyads, absolutely clashing sensory needs, clashing values comes up so much. Actually, I kind of have a fantasy, this would be a group, so it'd be messy. But my husband and I keep having like really interesting conversations. I keep thinking like, it would be so cool to have you on and hear his perspective. He's neurotypical, he's introverted, bless him. I don't think I could be with a extroverted neurotypical. But I thought it'd be really interesting for you to have your wife on and for me to have my husband on and talk about our marriages and hear their experiences of us. That might be too much of a group for us to navigate, but I think that could be really interesting.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a great idea. I think that would be very interesting indeed and give some perspective to our listeners because I think relationships for neurodivergent folks, it's such a, like you mentioned, having neurodiverse affirming partnership books that are not really neurodiverse affirming. And then, like, we really don't have a ton of resources out there to talk about partnerships with autistic allistic, autistic and ADHD, different neurotypes in general. I think it's really crucial to have these conversations about what the messaging is, the communication expectations, how you're receiving set information, how you best receive information. I mean, I think all of that is crucial. So, add it to the list.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: My list is getting really long.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a good thing. If we were both sitting here-

DR: MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:44:00].

PATRICK CASALE: Megan, I don't think I have anything else to talk to you about. I think we could call this a done deal. But I do think this was a good conversation. And I like that you wanted to have this after last week's episode because I think this just highlights and showcases the differentiation in one-on-one versus group communication and socialization. So, hopefully, we were able to just kind of showcase that if you were listened to the episode that we just did with Thomas followed by this episode. In continuation, I think you'll see quite a difference in just energy and conversation. And not to say either conversation was bad. It was just very different types of conversation and connection. and energy being spent.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative) that was a great summary which tells me you're getting ready to say our awkward goodbye.

PATRICK CASALE: I am always just tracking time because I am not-

DR: MEGAN NEFF: I appreciate it.

PATRICK CASALE: … the one who like goes into things after this. So, yes, everyone, thank you so much for listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. New episodes are out every single week on all major platforms and YouTube. Follow us on Divergent Conversations on Instagram and we will see you next week.

DR: MEGAN NEFF: Goodbye. 

PATRICK CASALE: Goodbye.