Episode 10: Understanding Alexithymia — Exploring the Complexities of Emotion

Show Notes

Picture the immense amount of energy invested in analyzing your emotional responses to every social interaction, striving to decipher not only your own feelings but also how the other person perceived the conversation. Or imagine navigating through life with a constant undercurrent of irritability and anxiety, yet lacking a clear understanding of their origin.

These experiences only represent a small fraction of what people with alexithymia may experience.

Alexithymia, which in simple terms is difficulty identifying and describing emotions, is a trait that is often associated with autism and ADHD, however despite the fact that one-in-ten people in the general population have this trait (not just Autistic people), there are still many misconceptions about what it is, who it really impacts, and how it shapes their experiences and relationships.

Dr. Megan Anna  Neff, an AuDHD psychologist with alexithymia, states that a lot of things that have been attributed to autism, for example, difficulty with emotion recognition on faces or voice, are actually due to alexithymia, not autism. 

In this episode of Divergent Conversations, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, talk with guest, Thomas Henley, an Autism consultant, public speaker, workplace trainer, and podcast host of “Thoughty Auti Podcast”, about all things alexithymia.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand what alexithymia is, how is it related to autism and ADHD, and some common attributes associated with autism that are strongly linked to alexithymia.
2. Identify the ways that alexithymia affects emotional regulation and the ability to connect with others on a deep emotional level.
3. Learn what strategies and therapeutic approaches individuals with alexithymia can use to help facilitate emotional regulation and deeper connections with others.

Alexithymia affects many individuals in the general population, so taking the time to recognize and understand the traits, challenges, and experiences associated with alexithymia, can help facilitate deeper connections with others, self-acceptance, and healthy ways to manage overwhelming emotions and situations.

Alexithymia Resources

• Alexithymia articles on neurodivergent insights: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/category/Alexithymia
• Alexithymia workbook: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/alexithymia-workbook
• Dr. Neff’s Alexithimia Training: https://learn.therasmarts.com/courses/Alexithymia

More about our guest, Thomas Henley:

My name is Thomas Henley, I’m an Autism consultant, public speaker and workplace trainer running the Worlds Top podcast ‘Thoughty Auti Podcast’, all about Autism & Mental Health - independently presented, edited and promoted by my Autistic self.

I’m also a Commonwealth/British champion in Taekwondo, Biomedical Sciences (Hons) graduate from UoM, Autistic Model, documentary creator of ‘Aspergers In Society’ & ambassador for Anna Kennedy OBE & Born Anxious.

I was diagnosed Autistic at 10 years old and later developed severe mental health conditions at the age of 14 due to trauma at Secondary School - Clinical Depression, GAD, Bulimia & multiple Dissociative disorders.

Most of my content focuses around the low quality-of-life statistics for autistic people, such as mental health, social isolation, unemployment, education, relationship difficulties & self-harm in all forms. I’ve delivered this information to the government, leaders in SEN education, and the general public through my outreach and social media work.

My passion is to help people, it’s my meaning to life, my saviour for helping me stay around. My ultimate goal is to improve things for future generations who may just experience the same awful things I have. 

My content is informed from many angles. During my time at university, I also studied and researched into Autism, Mental Health, Sociology, Psychology, Socialising, Relationships & Philosophy. I also used to be Special Needs TA, I work alongside charities regularly, talk to researchers, Autistic influencers, authors & parents regularly on my podcast, and currently work full-time for a National Inclusion charity.

Check out Thomas’ resources and content:

• Thomas’ Website: https://thomashenley.co.uk/
• Thoughty Auti Podcast (Spotify): https://open.spotify.com/show/6vjXgCB7Q3FwtQ2YqPjnEV?si=BjFjTN9RRm-mG5r4kmxmVQ 
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ThomasHenleyUK 
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ThomasHenley 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thomashenleyuk/ 
• TikTok (@thomashenleyuk): https://www.tiktok.com/@thomashenleyuk

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you're listening to another episode of Divergent Conversations Podcast. I'm your cohost, Patrick Casale, joined today by Dr. Megan Neff, and Thomas Henley, who is the host of the Thoughty Auti Podcast. So, guest number one on our podcast. 

And Megan and I just released on Friday, and the response has been fantastic, feedback has been fantastic. And we're both overwhelmed as hell, is that right Meg?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's right. We were talking before on air how we're both in scatterbrain today. So, that'll make for a fun conversation or something.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And I definitely just, like, steamrolled through the intro and didn't even let Megan introduce herself, so sorry.

MEGAN NEFF: I know. I was like leaning in too, but actually, I-

PATRICK CASALE: Thank God I saw it. I'm sorry for that. Thomas, we appreciate you being here and just making the time. We know you're six hours ahead of me and nine hours ahead of Meg. And I think we're going to talk about alexithymia today. And I think we're also going to talk about whatever the hell is going on in our lives and making us feel so scattered. So, thank you for being here.

THOMAS HENLEY: Of course, I think you might have mentioned it, but I wasn't totally aware that I was your first guest on the podcast. So, I'm honored very much, so…

PATRICK CASALE: No pressure whatsoever. Megan, alexithymia is a topic that is near and dear to your heart. You talk about it often on your Instagram account, Neurodivergent Insights. And you have tons of resources. So, I would love for you to start us off with why it feels important and why we're talking about that today.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll try to pull thoughts together, cohesion. Here we go. Yeah, so I think it's a really relevant topic to autistic and ADHDers, particularly, just because we tend to be more impacted by it. 

So, first, just to do my, like, definition of terms, and then go into it, it's actually not a diagnosis. Sometimes people will DM me about like, how do I get diagnosed with this? It's not a diagnosis, it's a personality trait. And it's fairly common. One in 10 people have it. And it's difficulty identifying and describing emotions. 

So, one in 10 people in the general population have it. Among autistic people, it's about 50% or higher. And then among ADHDers, you know, these studies, there's so much variance, but I've seen, like, between 20 to 45%. And then even those who don't have like, full threshold, they have more alexithymic traits. 

And this really makes things like emotion regulation, connecting with other people on kind of that deep emotional level a lot more difficult. 

The other interesting thing about alexithymia is that a lot of things that have been attributed to autism, like difficulty with emotion recognition on faces, or voice, empathy, which autism and empathy is a whole topic, that's huge. All these things, they've done studies, and when they pull out autistic people with alexithymia, and autistic people without alexithymia, autistic people without alexithymia are doing as well as the control group. 

So, a lot of the things that we've said that's an autistic thing is actually… that's a severe alexithymia thing. So, that, to me, when I read that I was like, this explains why so many people aren't getting diagnosed, for one. 

For two, when a person is autistic with alexithymia there's some higher support needs around emotional regulation, emotional identification. I actually have alexithymia. Because of my training, I would say I now have pretty mild alexithymia and I've figured out how to adapt to it. But I definitely see how difficulty identifying emotions through my life has led to some hard stuff. So, yeah, that's the clinical definition. 

Thomas, I'm curious to hear, like, you're really interested in this topic. Where did that curiosity come from?

THOMAS HENLEY: I think it's because I have quite a bit of a history with like, emotions. Like, ever since I was very young I was pretty much fascinated by neurotypicals. I was kind of doing, like, the reverse autism specialist thing. I had the fascination of neurotypical people. 

And I remember from, sort of, early days, sort of, at school, I would look at people around me, people, particularly, during like high school, secondary school age, and they would be doing things with no reason or rhyme to why they're doing it, but they just seemed to have something in their brain that, like, flicked a switch, and then they went, and did something. 

I now know that, you know, for example, things like dancing, it's not a social display that you're like, "I'm going to do a social display." It's a thing that you do because it feels good, and people feel driven to do things that feel good. 

And I found that really confusing because I used to analyze the reasons behind a lot of my decision-making. And I think it's, I was reading a book recently, I can't remember the reference, but they were talking about how emotions can be quite a big feed into how we make decisions. So, it could be something as simple as food. You know, you eat something, and then you like, no, you're picking between, like, a cupcake, and like some protein pancakes, and you model eating both of those in your brain, detects how you feel from eating those in that model, and then kind of use your emotions to probably get the cupcakes. 

So, I think there's a lot of depth to it and a lot of the issues that I had, particularly, in secondary school was emotional dysregulation, a lot of mental health difficulties, but also, not really as much of an ability to notice when my anxiety or my depression was getting worse, and, you know, psychologist's, therapists, they'd give me these anxiety worksheets, but the issue with that is that you first got to know that you're in your anxious [CROSSTALK 00:06:44].

MEGAN NEFF: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I talked about that when I do trainings on this of, like, we go from like one, or two, to 10, or at least that's our experience, we're not actually doing that. But we're not picking up, you know, that like emotion thermometer or that stress thermometer, we're not picking up the subtle increase. And so, that's what leads to those big emotional outbursts. They can also look very, like, borderline or bipolar, which is another reason that I think we get misdiagnosed because it's so hard to regulate your emotions if you're not registered, and you're angry, or stressed, or anxious till it's out of 10.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and then society's kind of perceiving you, and not how you're attending to react to things as well, and that inability to regulate is so challenging in social situations, but it's challenging in a lot of environments like in the workplace, for example. Like, if you're unable to identify your emotions, that can lead to a lot of workplace conflict as well. And I think that's another reason that we see so many neurodiverse people struggling with neurotypical jobs and environments, is just they're not set up to be successful in a lot of ways and they're not set up to be affirmative.

THOMAS HENLEY: It's quite key for, like, enforcing boundaries and stuff like because a lot of people they kind of get a… someone says something that makes them upset, or angry, they kind of get a bit of an emotional jolt to kind of be like, "Hey, actually, that's not okay." Whereas, in a lot of cases in my life, and, you know, from talking to other people, it seems that we just kind of take it, and then we go away and think about it, and come back like a week later, a couple of days later like, "Actually, hey, this isn't good." And I think it can sometimes lead a lot of neurotypicals to not really trust, like, our reactions to things in, like, the present.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that is so well said. It can cause so much relationship confusion because the person with alexithymia whether you're ADHD, autistic, or neurotypical, like, we need that space to process, I think. So, reflective emotions is when we're bringing in our prefrontal cortex. 

I think a lot of us overcompensate for the fact that we're not feeling those more in-the-moment fleeting emotions by becoming really good at reflective emotions. But that takes time and space. And often, we can't do that in an emotionally charged space. So, like, if we're having a, for example, emotionally charged conversation with our partner, we're going to have a really hard time accessing our emotions in that moment until we take some space, and especially, if your partner's more anxiously attached, that space is going to feel like abandonment. And this is where I see a lot of relationships kind of go off the rails, is that dance that kicks up around that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, you and I are both in the mental health profession. So, I think there's advanced training that goes on behind the scenes, right? Where we're like, okay, now we're starting to identify these emotions, now I'm starting to become more familiar with how I'm feeling, and experiencing, how I'm moving through the world. 

Not everyone has that luxury, and privilege, and ability to do, so I think it becomes very murky, very confusing. And that's where you start to see a lot of dissociation, and disconnection, and that really frustration, isolation, loneliness paradox that kicks in in social environments. And I think that is so fucking hard for people when it feels so painful to identify what is really happening beneath the surface.

MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

THOMAS HENLEY: I think one of the best ways that I found it to like describe what it's like to be electrifying to neurotypicals is like a threshold-related condition. Like, most people, if we put a quantitative number on anxiety levels from like zero to 100, you know, perhaps a lot of neurotypicals they'd be able to tell within the 20 to 50% range that they are at a certain level of anxiety whereas when you're autistic, and you have alexithymia that might be 70, 80, 90%. 

And a lot of those strategies that we learn to calm ourselves down, I found the most use in like preventative things and like blanket approaches to solving when I was younger, and I didn't really understand it. 

And it also led to, as he was saying about sort of disassociation, I actually did a lot of reading about it. And it was something that I noticed even when I was very young. And so, I looked into that kind of thing and I was like, "Hey, I have situations in my life where, for some reason, in 10, 15 minutes I feel like a completely different person, I feel differently in my body, I perceive the world differently, I behave differently, I must be a different person."

And so, I looked into this dissociative identity disorder, and I was like, "Hey, this is actually what's happening." Because I couldn't feel the emotion. And I had to, like, go through, and just look at all the science, and the terminology, and the philosophy behind different emotions, and really trying to embed that in order to understand it in the future. 

But I used to have, like, different colors, which, obviously, the colors were related to emotions. But at that time, it just didn't click for me at all.

MEGAN NEFF: I think that captures something really important. Yeah, and it's interesting. Like, I don't know what is dissociation, what is alexithymia here, but one thing I notice among autistic people, in general, is a much more, like, fragmented view of self. 

And so, when you describe that of like, looking into DID… Like, that's actually, I feel, like probably pretty common for a lot of autistic people to look into DID or I'm seeing a lot more about plural systems now because it can be such a fragmented experience when we can't access our emotions, even more so.

PATRICK CASALE: Megan, I'm curious about, just in your own life, when you're experiencing alexithymia and kind of the identification, like you're mentioning being fragmented, right? You and I have talked about fragmentation a lot and just feeling so, like there's so many pieces here, and you can always identify or connect them, and how that really is, you know, showing up these days for you, in terms of like, you've built an audience, you've built a presence, you, obviously, have such a wonderful reputation. And I know you and I talk of this off the air about like, when you're feeling really heavy or like when you're really in that space of teaching and researching it can be disconnecting from how you're experiencing day-to-day too.

MEGAN NEFF: I actually think I feel the most connected when I'm in my head. And that's part of the problem is it's so hard to be in my body, which I've talked about plenty. So, when I'm in research flow or writing I feel like the most like myself. It's all the other places I occupy that I'm… And right, like that's actually a really common experience with special interests. We often feel most like ourselves when are immersed in our special interest. 

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. 

MEGAN NEFF: And can access emotions. Like, I see that with my clients, when we start talking about special interests, there's an animation that pops up. Like, we access emotions more easily. Thomas, you were about to say something.

THOMAS HENLEY: Yeah, I just find it interesting you're talking about, like, feeling fragmented because before I came across the concept of alexithymia I did a video and like a post called like, My Split Brain. And it was, basically, talking, I found this book called, I think, The Monkey Mind. 

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yes. 

THOMAS HENLEY: Which is, yeah. And I really-

MEGAN NEFF: Go ahead and explain it though because I know what you're talking about, but our listeners don't.

THOMAS HENLEY: Yeah, it's like, basically, splitting your brain into, sort of, the higher cognitive kind of prefrontal cortex that uses intellectual things, and logic, and facts, and things to dissect and understand your environment whereas the monkey mind is the emotional brain, like things related to like the amygdala, and drives, and desires, and needs that are important to survival. 

And the whole book is kind of about framing it as that you do have kind of these two pulling forces. One is like your willpower and your, I guess, more human side. And the other side is like the emotional kind of monkey side. 

But I found that really interesting. And I felt like it was probably one of the first things that I related to, in terms of thinking about my emotions because I did feel for a long time that I just couldn't, like facts, and dates, and events just seem to be like, ridiculously hard to connect them in my brain. Even if they are apparently clear, the feelings that I have from that event don't feel like they connect with that. 

And so, I'll got a lot of situations where I've had really bad experience during the day. And then for some reason, I'll just be alone, I feel a bit anxious, and I feel a bit down. Now, why is that happened? And, obviously, I know that something bad's happened in the day, but it just doesn't immediately link. It's like after connecting neuro-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. 

THOMAS HENLEY: …pathways together.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's not an automatic process. It's like, okay, I've got to analyze. Yeah, yeah. When I started therapy, like five years ago, one of the things my therapist said to me was like, "You are so like analytical or like, aware." But almost, it wasn't a criticism, but it was a curiosity of like, and it was an interesting moment for me. Like, isn't everyone doing this all day long? Just like analyzing the shit out of their day, trying to figure out why am I feeling this way? And that was a really interesting moment for me because I could tell he was struck by like, how analytical I was about my experience.

PATRICK CASALE: It would be nice to know what it would be like to move through the world without analyzing every experience and thing that fucking happens to me, that would be fantastic. It would feel like a yes, maybe, like a pressure relief in a way. But it's just so challenging to move away from that. Like, I have to analyze everything. I'm constantly, like you said, Thomas, can try to connect like, where's this anxious feeling coming from? Oh, yeah, this thing happened to me today, or this thing happened yesterday. And now it's creating these feelings that I can't always associate together. And then, ultimately, it leaves you a bit confused because you can recognize the somatic sensation in your body of like, "I'm feeling anxious." Where is this coming from? Like, why is this feeling so intense right now? Oh, yeah, this thing happened six hours ago. That should create anxiety, but in the moment was not able to connect the dots.

THOMAS HENLEY: And that is quite a heavy tendency for, I think, autistic, maybe even neurodivergents as well, but I can only speak from the autistics' perspective, that it is kind of hard to make those… God my brains gone.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, we get it.

THOMAS HENLEY: What were you saying, Patrick? 

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, just connecting those dots, you know, and those associations where- 

THOMAS HENLEY: Yes. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

THOMAS HENLEY: It's gone on me, sorry.

PATRICK CASALE: That's okay. I think, you know, this is actually nice to see while we're all sitting here because the three of us mentioned we're all feeling a bit scattered today. And it's interesting, like, we're having a very real experience around this conversation. And I can see Megan being very deep in thought when I'm talking, and I'm paying attention to that at my peripheral. 

But, you know, I think, there's a paradox for me as a autistic ADHDer where association with emotion, and feeling and trying to name it and define it versus like, constant sensory seeking and stimulation seeking, and like, really trying to seek out that intensity as well, and then trying to like connect the dots with intensity seeking to soothe the anxiety in your body. It's really an interesting experience for me. And soccer has been so helpful. Thomas, I know you're really into fitness for that, probably, a similar reason. And [CROSSTALK 00:21:37]- 

THOMAS HENLEY: … proprioceptive stimming.

PATRICK CASALE: I know, I know. I was talking to Megan about proprioceptive stim the other day and needing to have my, like soul, and body crushed back into my body, and how often I feel the need for that. I asked my wife to do that the other day, and she looked at me, and was like, "The fuck are you talking about?" And I was like, "I just need you to do it. Like, I'll explain it to you later. But I need you to do that." And I think that's a very, very typical experience for me on almost a daily basis.

THOMAS HENLEY: I think that there is a tendency sometimes… I've remembered what I was going to say. I think that there's a tendency sometimes with autistic people that we need to know the reasons for things. And sometimes in a lot of cases you don't always need to now. Like, it could be useful in some cases to know why you're feeling a certain way. And sometimes it might just be, you know, good to just chalk it up to possible stresses, like mental health or so, where it plays things being too productive, not getting enough rest due to special interests. 

And I think sometimes getting in my head about how I'm feeling stops me from like focusing on other things that I'm doing, that are helping with my stress, and my emotions. So, unless I'm feeling sort of a deep, aching issue, or that, you know, it's perhaps related to a relationship or a friendship, or if I'm having quite bad mental health crises or lows, then it's useful for me to go for and pick that. So, there's that.

And I also think that creator autism from the inside, we were talking about alexithymia on my podcast, and we were saying that can be quite a large burden for using your, like, higher cognitive brain to do things that are quite simple, or quick, or emotional based like social communication. So, it really made me kind of think about, you know, like, how much effort am I putting into situations that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things? That kind of mentality.

MEGAN NEFF: I really like how you're balancing kind of the autistic need to know because I agree that's super regulated when I can pinpoint to like, oh, this is why I'm feeling that way. I say it calms my amygdala down, just calms everything down. 

THOMAS HENLEY: Fixated at the core.

MEGAN NEFF: But balancing out... What did you say?

THOMAS HENLEY: Fixated at the core.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yes. 

THOMAS HENLEY: It's the reason that everything will be okay. It's like when you get really stressed about finishing a task on the computer and the programs aren't working. It's like, really easy to get that done, and then, you'll be okay whereas sometimes [CROSSTALK 00:24:45]-

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I think it's [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:56] partly because it just produces uncertainty. Like, it's like, okay, I can track why I'm feeling that way. But what I really like is how you balance it with acceptance. 

For me, in my training to become a psychologist, I probably did a bulk of my training in motor therapy called acceptance commitment therapy or ACT, which is all about kind of accepting our emotions. It doesn't mean we have to like them, but accepting they exist and then asking, "Okay, but how do I continue to move toward what matters to me, to move toward my values?"

And that was probably one of the best things for my anxiety, was learning an element of acceptance. It was yes, sometimes I can locate like, okay, my routine's off, this, that's why I'm anxious today. Other times I can't and it is about that, "Okay, how am I going to hold this and live with this and continue to move toward what matters to me and not let it completely derail my day?"

THOMAS HENLEY: It's prioritization, I think, the way you put your energy and so…

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you make a great point, Thomas, about that because I do think a lot of autistic people are using a ton of cognitive energy to really figure out meaning behind everything. And it's just unbelievably exhausting. 

And Megan, you and I have talked about, like, replenishing, and trying to like recharging and being able to soothe, but sometimes it's really challenging to replenish that energy, and then you're playing catch up all the time. And I think that's why so many of us are just going through the world feeling really, really exhausted all the time. 

And I like your example, Megan, with acceptance and commitment therapy, and, you know, I've talked about, like, IFS, as well, internal family systems. And that has been very helpful for me to have like parts work because I can't always identify what's happening in the moment, or what I'm experiencing, or how I'm feeling. And if we're getting really cognitive, I really can't identify it then. But if I can break it into parts, like a part of me is feeling overwhelmed, and it's okay for that to show up, and I'm going to accept that, and I don't need to find out the meaning of why. I just need to accept that it exists. 

And there are other parts of me that are feeling okay or feeling more grounded. And that's been pretty remarkably life-changing, if I'm being really honest about it like that work has been so tremendously supportive in the last few years.

THOMAS HENLEY: I think it was really important to mention the aspect to, like, the certainty around things because I feel like it's kind of weird because if you study neurotypicals, like I have, and just discovered this, like, so obsessed with understanding what's going on in their brains, I think there's a lot of situations where we give ourselves a hard time for not understanding certain things. Like, neurotypicals tend to talk a lot about things like read the room, and understand the hidden meaning, and understand things just from the flow of the conversation. 

But from my experience, particularly, in the workplace, or within friend groups, a lot of people that you talk to individually after those big sort of group conversations, they have completely different ideas of what's gone on. And I felt like, you know, we do have that drive to try and find that certainty out, specifically, like, around emotions and social things which are inherently so uncertain and emotional. It can be kind of hard for us. And it's kind of one of those things that I think a lot of neurotypicals they go with what they feel from the situation. And then, that's the truth. 

But compare and contrast each person in a certain group conversation, it's completely different. It's just that we like to know exactly what happened, and exactly what people are wanting, and exactly what they're trying to say.

MEGAN NEFF: There's a TV show called The Affair. I don't know if either of you have watched it, but I've found it so interesting because… and I think there's maybe a few shows that do this, but they, like, really lean into it, the first season, at least, where you see this exact same episode but from different people's perspectives. 

And so, like, the characters will be wearing different clothes and different people's memories. And it's just so interesting, that idea of subjectivity, of everyone's experience of the same conversation, and then how it encodes in memory is wildly different, which is, frankly, terrifying for me. And someone who is anchored in like facts and logic of like, how did you get that from this conversation? But brains are weird. And the way we experience something is so heavily filtered by our past experiences, our beliefs, our biases. It's wild and terrifying.

THOMAS HENLEY: Definitely agree. 

MEGAN NEFF: Like, all of us are going to walk away from this 40 minutes we spent together with different memories, different experiences.

PATRICK CASALE: And probably our own different-

THOMAS HENLEY: Perspectives.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. Different perspectives and interpretations, right? Because I'm the type of person who will walk away and analyze like, was that a good conversation? Did it feel meaningful? Did I show up the way I wanted to show up? All of those things will be running through my mind the rest of the day. So, yeah, it's just really interesting. Brains are weird.

MEGAN NEFF: I'll actually be having similar questions. I'll also be like, why was I so foggy during that conversation? What was happening? Like, I'll also be thinking about, like, the relational dynamics, but also like, will that be it? Was that cohesive enough for a podcast? Was that a meaningful experience for Thomas? Was that worth his time to have him on? Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.

THOMAS HENLEY: I can confirm for [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:17] certainty that it's a meaningful experience. I love chatting to you. And it's really nice to chat to you Patrick, as well.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. Is this our awkward transition goodbye time because that's how I'm reading the interview [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:32].

THOMAS HENLEY: I don't know how you guys wrap things up, so-

PATRICK CASALE: We don't always-

MEGAN NEFF: Do we want to say anything about where to find Thomas' work? And then wrap up?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, Thomas, if you'd love to share with the audience where they can find you or what you're doing in the world, and what you're putting out there.

THOMAS HENLEY: Sure, you can find my podcasts, the Thoughty Auti Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, any of the podcasting streaming services, or you can check out my Instagram page @thomashenleyuk where I make daily posts and about two reels a day, autism related.

PATRICK CASALE: Your Instagram account is awesome. I mean, I found your stuff because Megan was on your podcast, and shared some of that, and I was watching, and really, really cool stuff, a lot of information, a lot of humor thrown in which I really enjoy, and a lot of really cool perspective. So, really appreciate just being able to have this time together and spend the last 40 minutes talking about all of this.

THOMAS HENLEY: Thank you very much, Patrick. 

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome.

THOMAS HENLEY: I appreciate that.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone who is listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast, new episodes are out every single Friday on all major podcast platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.