Episode 124 (Season 4): Epiphanies and Apologies: Processing Life After Autism and ADHD Discovery

Show Notes

After discovering you’re Autistic or have ADHD, you most likely started to re-examine the past—and the realization of missed cues or misunderstood moments can bring up nostalgia, relief, and even regret. Revisiting friendships, relationships, and life events through a newly understood neurodivergent lens is often emotional but also essential for self-understanding.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the emotional journey that comes after Autism and ADHD discovery. They share how new self-knowledge reshapes memories, relationships, and the way they relate to themselves and others. Through candid stories about dating, friendships, family dynamics, and personal growth, Patrick and Megan Anna unpack the joys and heartaches of looking back, recontextualizing the past, and navigating big feelings that surface post-diagnosis.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain insight into the emotional rollercoaster many neurodivergent people experience after a new diagnosis or self-identification, including “aha” moments and the complex process of reframing past experiences with new understanding.
2. Hear personal stories about dating, friendship, and family dynamics that will resonate if you’ve ever wondered why life felt “off”—and how the right framework changes everything.
3. Find compassionate guidance on repairing relationships, managing nostalgia or regret, and embracing self-compassion during a sometimes messy process of self-discovery.

Whether you’re in the midst of self-discovery or supporting someone who is, this conversation brings real-life honesty and practical wisdom to a journey that can be both destabilizing and transformative.

 

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Transcript 

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

All right, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are starting a new series, which I'm really excited about, which we really haven't unpacked in length before, which is kind of like, okay, post-autism and ADHD discovery. Looking back, like, now what? And how did I not know? Does that ring a bell for you at all?

MEGAN NEFF: So, I have an itchy thought. This happens to autistic people. When you're in a conversation and it feels like there's a fact that got wrong, it's hard to like move beyond the fact until you correct it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, my itchy thought right now, which we can either cut this unless this is helpful, because autistic people experience this, is, we are batch recording, and we just talked about how to structure this new series. And I believe this segment will actually be the second part of the series. And you started by saying, we're starting a new series.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes.

MEGAN NEFF: Then my mind is stuck on that sentence.

PATRICK CASALE: I say we leave it because that's just what a glimpse into my brain, especially right now, with how it's not working well. So, this is not the beginning. This is kind of the middle.

MEGAN NEFF: We're talking about doing a series, and we're doing it very ADHD, and we're bopping around, but we're talking about doing a series that's kind of starts with the arc that often happens for people around self-discovery, diagnosis. So, that'll be section one, which we haven't recorded yet.

PATRICK CASALE: We haven't recorded yet, which is what's-

MEGAN NEFF: And then, now-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: …that's what tripped you up. And last week, we recorded the, like, autistic ADHD starter pack, which will be section three of the series. And now, we're doing the emotional like, what to expect after some of the emotions that come up for us after diagnosis or self-identification. So, we are in segment two of the series. But it is not chronological to how we're recording, so our brains are going to have a lot of fun with us.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's what usually I'm trying to piece all those things together sequentially. And right now, everything's all over the place. So, it's a good representation of how my brain feels, which is scattered.

But yes, thank you for that correction. And we are kind of jumping into this in a way where we're kind of unpacking the emotional experience post-discovery, a lot of the things that start coming up for us and surfacing. And honestly, like, not only epiphany moments, but you start to almost have these visions or experiences of like childhood experiences, young adulthood, or early in adolescence, and like rethinking interactions, rethinking experiences, and social situations in general. And just that, for me, has been pretty ongoing since I was diagnosed in 2021.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. For me, the first, I would say three months specifically, but definitely six months, my brain just fell on fire, in the sense of I was having so many associations. And like, every experience would be like, "Oh my gosh, it's this thing. It's not that." And then, that would then bring me back to childhood memories.

And I so wish I'd done more writing during that time and to capture all of those, because it was such a… Like, I get, so jealous isn't the correct the right word, because I get really happy, like when people join our community and they're in that phase, I get so excited for them. And I also get, I think, nostalgic, that's the word, I get nostalgic for that season where I was having so many what just felt like electric aha moments. Was your experience at all like that?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think, I also wish I wrote that stuff down as it was coming to me. And even as things are still coming to me now, because my childhood memories are pretty foggy, and you know, there was a lot of childhood trauma, so it's harder to sometimes unpack and create those linkages.

But as I've, like, worked through that "almost fugue" state of it all, I'm starting to have more memories of being a child, being an adolescent, being a young adult, and like all of the moments where I'm like, "Huh, that does make so much more sense." Right? Like, that even is me replaying social interactions, dates that I went on that went, like, horribly wrong. And then, just laughing at it and being like, "I see what happened here."

MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, okay, let's go down that rabbit trail. Let's talk about our dating life and like, what aha moments we had. Because I do think that relationships all of a sudden make a lot more sense when you have this lens. So, what about your dating life? Were you like, "Oh, well, now that makes sense."

PATRICK CASALE: I want to say missed opportunities, I guess, is the reality of, like, dates that I went on, where women were clearly interested in me. Now, looking back on, like, signs in context that I was unable to pick up on in the moment, and just being like, "Huh? I think that this could have went to a second date, or turned into an actual relationship, or maybe this relationship would have sustained in a way that was, like, more natural and supportive, opposed to like, ending in a crash and burn situation because I didn't do something or didn't communicate a certain way." And, yeah, it's just funny to me.

So, for example, I remember vividly, actually, I was going to move to Charlotte, North Carolina, instead of Asheville, and I'm really thankful that I did not do that. And I was on a group date with a friend and his friend. And we were watching football at this bar, and she kept coming closer to me in her seat and putting her leg, like on my leg. And I just kept moving because I assumed, like, she needs space. Like, I am crowding her. And I, like, kept moving over.

And at the end of the night, I just remember her being like, "All right, I think I'm going to go." And just fast forward to being like, "Oh, Patrick wasn't interested in me." And I was like, "What? I didn't even know this was a thing." So, I have a lot of experiences like that.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, the missed flirtation, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Or, like, going on a date that I thought went really well, only to be told afterwards, like, "Oh, you didn't, like, seem interested in me. You didn't tell me that you were interested in me." And I was like, "I just thought that was implied because we went on a date." So, I didn't know I had to, like, communicate that explicitly.

MEGAN NEFF: That one trips me up, too, of like, I assume things are known. But then, again, also with my alexithymia and being more avoidant, that's not necessarily communicated. So, it's like, well, if my actions are showing you I'm interested. Like, clearly, like, you should just know that except, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I-

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, go ahead.

PATRICK CASALE: I was just going to say, I think about my first date with Arielle, my wife, and I talked about this before, but like, definitely didn't pick up on the fact that she was interested in me, or she wanted me to, like, kiss her good night. And I know I gave her, like, an awkward like, pat on the shoulder. And just like, wandered off as quickly as I could to my car. And she was like, "What the hell, dude? I was like, standing in front of you, staring at you, obviously showing you signs that I wanted you to kiss me, and you just, like, ran away." And I was like, "I didn't get it. So sorry."

MEGAN NEFF: Like, you have to say it. This really is where the like non-verbals, the ability to perceive context intuitively. I think in the dating world, there's so much nuance, because it can be awkward to talk directly, like more so because there's more vulnerability around romance. And so, I think this is really where we feel a lot of friction as autistic people.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And it's interesting, because I mean, I've definitely heard what you're experiencing. I feel like the more common stereotype is like the autistic person who is pursuing someone and not getting the signal the person is not interested in. Like, oh, Friday night won't work for me. And so-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:09:27].

MEGAN NEFF: …then they ask until, yeah, exactly. That's a story that I feel like I hear more often. And even like, you know, have heard unfortunate stories where more often when it's autistic, men will like be accused of harassment because they keep asking someone out. But it's a communication where, and I don't want to… Sometimes, you know, autistic people can harass people. It's not that we're not capable, but where the situation was, they just kept asking the person out because they weren't getting a clear response.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

MEGAN NEFF: Again, because you can hear dating advice, like, well, have conversations with them. So, like, I know autistic people who will, like, learn the schedule of that person. Let's say you're at the college campus and be like, "Well, I know they leave that class then, so I'll try to have, like, some small talk then." And it's like, what is "social skills" and what is, like, leaning toward harassment. So, that was something I was seeing a bit clinically where I was working was like…

And that's where, again, social skills are not a bad thing. They have to be framed correctly, but where autistic people can be vulnerable of being misperceived if they are learning these social… Like, they're like, this is what you're supposed to do, and then they're implementing it, but they're struggling to perceive this person's not interested. Yeah, I've seen some unfortunate ways that's played out.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think probably when I was younger, maybe that was more where I would find myself is like dating apps are also really confusing. I just want to say that, like for those of you-

MEGAN NEFF: So, I got married before dating apps existed. And I really want to experience dating apps. I know that sounds so weird, but I'm so curious.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, they're confusing, because you're, like, messaging, like instant messaging back and forth, right? So, context can definitely be missed in how you're communicating.

And then, like, I always found myself so confused either, like being direct, of like, "Hey, let's go out at this time and do this thing." And then, that person being like, "Oh, you didn't show enough interest in me." And I was like, "I was super direct."

Or misreading, like, the passivity of conversation in it that's just being framed as, like, you're giving me all these details, so I assume that you're interested in me, but then you're telling me you're not interested in going out. And that's really confusing. And I don't know what to do with that information. It was just very overwhelming. I did meet my wife on match.com, though, so shout out to match.com.

MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah. The other thing that makes sense to me is, if at one point in your life you were like, I think about the pendulum. If you were overly direct and then got negative feedback from that, it would make so much sense you would adapt to that, again, thinking about masking as a survival strategy by being like, I will never assume anyone's interested in me.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

MEGAN NEFF: If it was kind of like you were under-registering people's interest, and so were pursuing extra, and if that, I would imagine that'd be painful for you, then what a natural response to just be like, unless someone explicitly says, "Patrick, kiss me." I'm assuming they are not interested.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure, 100%. That's kind of how I felt. My wife will tell you a story of like, when we first started dating, I used to, like, text her, DM her on social media, etc. Didn't realize that it was just my form of communicating on platforms that were just whatever was open on my phone or easily accessible. And she came over to my house, and she was like, "I need to talk to you." And I was like, "Okay." This is like second or third date. I'm like, "Okay, this is probably going to end."

And she was like, "You need to stop messaging me on all of these platforms. Like, one platform is enough." And I was just like, "Oh. I didn't even like, register how that could feel really overwhelming to receive like, texts, DMS." You know? And now, it's so funny that she and I are, like, communicating on Instagram, Facebook, and text message throughout every single day simultaneously, and it's just like... But in the moment, I was like, "Oh, shit, I did something wrong."

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I imagine that happens. I mean, that's part of RSD, that's part of just having kind of past painful experiences is probably for a lot of us, whenever we get that, "Hey, I need to talk to you." Automatically, it's like, "Oh, I did something wrong. I don't know what, but I'm in trouble."

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, my dating life was a lot of fun, yeah. But you know, I also thought about like, pre or post-discovery, like a lot of apologies that I issued to former partners of mine for, like, ending relationships poorly or communicating in a way that I think looking back felt really shitty, or too direct, too blunt, too, like, hurtful in situations given the context. So, I really had to have a lot of come to terms in like, accountability moments with myself, of like, you just really didn't treat people well, not intentionally, a lot of the time. But that's definitely how it came across to some of these relationships that didn't go well.

MEGAN NEFF: I think that is a really helpful part of the recontextualizing past experiences is also the ability to see how, yeah, we, in our past, have perhaps hurt people, and not because that was our intent, but because there was that cross neurotype interaction happening, and we didn't understand it. We didn't perhaps understand why that would be painful.

For me, too, there's definitely been a lot of times I've been really direct in my past, and I can now understand how that would have landed in a way that was painful. And that I probably would have handled differently if I had the awareness I have now.

And I think we also have insight into ways that we've been hurt, that we then have new context for. But I definitely think the relational ruptures in our past take on new context as part of the post-discovery process, for sure.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Really well said. So, between, like, working out of my like, gambling addiction, where you're supposed to, like, make amends to people, plus, like, recontextualizing through the lens of late discovery ADHD, I was like, I have a lot of conversations I need to have, because just even friendships, too, like, just friendships that went awry because of different expectations in what a friendship is, or miscommunications, or misinterpretations of information and intent.

MEGAN NEFF: So, did you do that? Did you go follow up and…?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, probably to some people's, like, frustration, I'm sure, like, girlfriends from freshman year of college were like, "Fuck off, dude. Like, I don't want to hear from you." But you know, it was a part of the process also for recovery was like, I knew I had hurt people from addiction as well, so I was just wanting to just offer context, which might have been too autistic of an experience for some people, of like, "Here's all the context, and here you go." And they're like, "I haven't talked to you in 15 years, but thank you."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Like, "I've left this, but thank you for dumping all of the context of why you were an ass to me 15 years ago. "

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. And you know, if you want to talk about it? And nobody ever took me up on that, so…

MEGAN NEFF: What do you think that was doing for you to reach out to people from 15 years ago, to give this context?

PATRICK CASALE: I think for so long, I felt so lost and confused in my own self and my own like world that I was trying hard to, like, just explain it. Like, hey, here are the reasons why I've experienced my world the way I have, because it's now finally clicking and making sense for me. And, you know, I don't think a lot of those people really needed that context or information, but I think it was clarifying for me.

MEGAN NEFF: And that's perhaps, actually, there's, I think, some wisdom in that too, of like, for you, it probably felt like such a big aha moment, because it's probably, I would guess, knowing you, weighed on you of like that feels so value and consistent that I could have been that person 15 years ago to that person. So, for you, it's such a big aha moment to be able to contextualize it and understand it. But that doesn't mean it's going to be a aha moment for that person that they need resolution on.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

MEGAN NEFF: And so, even that is probably part of the process of, I think a lot of us are sitting with, like, oh, like, wow, that relationship would have gone really different, or that interaction if we'd known, is it repairing for that person to hear this, or is this something, kind of, for me, for me to sort because yeah, I think this is a big theme that comes up for people. And then, how much do I go back to my past to revisit some of those relationships and conversation?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think that's one thing I've learned over time, is like, not everyone needs that apology, not everyone needs that explanation. Sometimes you need to just verbalize it, or communicate it, or write it down for yourself, or share it with your therapist, or like, much healthier outlets and mechanisms sometimes.

And I think that you start to deconstruct and like, inspect all parts of yourself, and your past, and your present post-discovery. And I think that it leads you down all of these pathways of curiosity and just trying to figure out, like, which one to follow sometimes can be complicated and complex.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And that's where, like, that pingy sensation I was describing those first three months of it feels like so much to unpack. Like, I was in a luxurious position where, since I was already in psychoanalytic therapy, it's kind of common to have more frequent visits. So, I bought my therapy back up to twice a week during that process, because there was just so much my brain was working through.

And I do think kind of letting ourselves ping a little bit and also reminding ourselves we have time. We don't have to do all the sorting now.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes.

MEGAN NEFF: But yeah, the metaphor of using, and I know I've used on this podcast before, but I don't know why, it's just the image in my head is like a dresser with drawers. And it's like, I'm just opening different drawers, like opening the childhood drawer.

Or for me, there's also a lot of identities that got put back on the table. So, my sexual identity, my gender identity. So, those were also drawers that were open, relationships. And I kind of letting myself, I don't know how you organize, but when I organize and declutter my room gets much more cluttery and messy. And it's, I think, very much the same process around post-discovery. When you are decluttering through looking through your past, it might feel like your dresser drawer is open and clothes are like all over the floor as you're reorganizing. It often is more destabilizing and disorienting before we get to the place where it's actually really grounding and orienting. But there's that really messy stage where clothes are everywhere, and we're like, what the hell is going on? And why are all the drawers open?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I just want to say that that image is my nightmare [CROSSTALK 00:22:34]-

MEGAN NEFF: Is that not how you declutter? Oh, I sent you a picture. I sent you a picture a few months ago, when I was decluttering and my room, it was like it exploded with books and piles of clothes. And then, it lived like that for two weeks after my decluttering. That's not your experience of decluttering?

PATRICK CASALE: Nope, that visual stimuli clutter experiences is quite overwhelming to me, but I declutter by eliminating or removing. So, I have to, like, throw everything out. So this process-

MEGAN NEFF: That's what I was doing. I threw out a lot of stuff.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I mean, I don't even [CROSSTALK 00:23:08]-

MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:23:09].

PATRICK CASALE: I'm just, like, get it in the garbage, bring trash bags, and throw everything in the trash. But that doesn't work for this process, you know? Like, when you're saying, I'm going through drawer after drawer and pulling it out, and then, like, rearranging it, the whole like elimination process of just throw it out in the trash doesn't work. So, my process has been quite complex in that regard, because it's like, there's so much here to unpack, right? So, you can't just get rid of it.

And everything in my being is like, just put it to the side, eliminate it, get rid of it, minimalize, minimalize. And this has been such a, like, nuanced process of like, you're almost like peeling open an onion layer over and over and over again. And so, it hasn't been as comforting as, like, for me, I love throwing shit out. Like, I love it. It is so soothing.

And Arielle will be like, "Where's whatever?" And I'm like, "I don't know." She's like, "Did you throw it out?" I'm like, "I would bet money on it. I have no idea, but I can't be trusted not to." So, with this process, because it's so integral to our entire being and existence, you kind of have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable.

And for me, that has sometimes looked like the visualization of like the messy, open dresser drawers with stuff everywhere, because you really are, like, looking under every rock and every nook and cranny, so to speak.

MEGAN NEFF: I feel like that's such a good point, because it's like this process is not very autistic friendly in the sense of it is messy, it is unpredictable, it is chaotic, it is you can't necessarily put it in a nice kind of linear process, especially with the associations of like this, which leads to this, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. And I'll have these associations like randomly, too. I'm sure you still do at times, but like I've told you, for this book process, I'll be like, walking down the road somewhere, completely in my own thoughts, and whatever's around me, and all of a sudden something will hit me. I'm like, "Oh, I need to write that down." And then, I don't want to forget it, because my working, like, short-term memory is so bad that I will often forget these things very quickly. And then, I'm like, "What was I trying to remember? Or what was the experience that I was trying to unpack?" And I lose it.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Typing into Google Drive as I'm walking, like, almost getting hit by cars, because I'm trying so hard to get this thing into my document that I can't forget.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh. Please don't like die walking into traffic trying to write this book. So, I've been using Voice Memo a lot more because my hand is messed up, and Voice Memo would be a great way to do that without getting hit.

PATRICK CASALE: You're not wrong. So, yeah, that's been my process. And it's just been a messy one. And you're so right that it's really not like an autistic friendly process. It's not like a structured, orderly, linear experience for me at all.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we're using the dresser metaphor, like, what would be some of the drawers that you've kept revisiting as you've been making sense of your past through this new lens?

PATRICK CASALE: Definitely, I have, like, vivid memories of being age like eight to 12, which was a really hard couple of years for me. Felt very isolated and very alone. And I spent a lot of time by myself. And I have four sisters. So, like, there's people in my house all the time, but I spent a lot of time in my room just reading, or, like, lining up my action figures in a particular way.

And I just never understood why I was just so uncomfortable going to school, why I called out sick all the time, how I got sick all the time. Like, I got mono when I was like, seven, didn't make any sense to me. I had, like, strep throat constantly. I was always just trying to figure out, like, why can't I sleep? Why am I having such a hard time, like, getting comfortable in my own body?

And I think about that a lot now, you know, as I'm about to turn 39 tomorrow. Like, how challenging it was to be like a kid, and a young teenager, and adolescent. I think about that often. I think about, like, college experience pretty often, especially combined with, like, the gambling stuff. And then, like, yeah, those are the two periods of my life that I go back to a lot. I don't know why. What about you?

MEGAN NEFF: It's interesting you go to, like, periods of life that makes a lot of sense. That would be interesting, I haven't thought about it as periods. I think there's been like clusters. I think relationships were a big one. Like, it was always confusing to me, like whenever I would join a group, so whether it's, you know, like there's a group of friends starting to form in middle school, or, like, when I'd go to camp, there'd be a cabin of girls. And it's like I could initially, like, the first day, I'd be at the same pace as the group, but then over time, it's like, I'd see them get closer and closer and closer, and I'd slowly feel more and more on the outskirts.

And I didn't understand, like, why am I never in the core of a group? Why do I pretty much… Except, minus a few exceptions, it's like, why do I always end up feeling on the outside, and I'm not seeing what's happening. I'm not seeing how they're getting closer? And I'm not like… So, I think that experience of like feeling like I'm starting out at the same pace of the group, but inevitably, they always get closer, and I always feel on the outside.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: That all of a sudden made so much more sense. And I think it's something that was both like, sad to me, confusing, but also perhaps had some shame of like, what's up with that?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, relationships, I would say just relationships are huge. Both peer relationships, but also, yeah, definitely romantic relationships as well.

I think the sensory stuff was huge for me, especially with my family life. Like, I have this really distinct memory of being in the kitchen and Luke touching the back of my… Like, he put his hand on, like, the small of my back, and like, having a startle response and feeling so bad about that, because, like, you know, when you affectionately touch your spouse, you're not wanting them to have, like, a shocked, negative response to that. And when you're being touched by your spouse, you're not wanting to have that response.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

MEGAN NEFF: And so, I think there's a lot of questions around like, what does it mean that it's hard for me when my spouse touches me, but then also with the kids of early parenting was so so hard for me, and not understanding why, but then being able to look back and say, like, wow, I was so sensory overloaded. I was so over touched.

And so, there was so much about my… It was like "domestic life" around being a mother, about around being a spouse, that was both helpful for me, but it's also really helpful for Luke to understand. Like, it was so helpful in our marriage to be able to have language of it's not that your touch disgusts me, it's that I wasn't expecting it, and I have these sensory components.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, those would be, I mean, there's so many drawers in my post-discovery. But those would be a few that stand out that.

PATRICK CASALE: That makes a lot of sense. I can relate a lot to what you said about, like, the groups even, you know, in like, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade, hard times. Like, junior high was so hard, high school was so hard. And even though I played soccer all throughout, you know, played JV, played varsity, it was always a part of my life. I never felt like I was a part of the team. Like, I went on the bus with everyone. I went to practice, but I was really only close with one person who was my best friend growing up. And I remember feeling really jealous if he had other friends, because I was like, "This is my person. Like, I don't have any other people." So, him spreading his attention to other people, I would always feel like a bit frustrated or resentful. I could never understand why. I know we've talked about how special interests sometimes are people as well.

And I can also relate, definitely, with like being married and, you know, Arielle giving me presents or you know, gestures and me not reacting a certain way, or me not wanting to go to her very large, loving family gatherings that occur so often and not understanding how to communicate that.

But even as I started to understand better, before my discovery, I would just say, "I get very overwhelmed by this. It's very overstimulating." I didn't really have any other language for it, though. And she wasn't as understanding as she is today. And that would be hard. That would cause friction and some rupture. And her being like, "Do you not like my family? Do you not enjoy the things that I enjoy? You don't ever react to the gifts that I give you, that I put so much thought and intention to, with the reaction that I want you to have, basically, or expect."

And I would feel so ashamed and like, almost hurt, as if, like, I hurt this person that I care so much about, but I didn't intend to. My face didn't give you, or my body didn't react in a way that you anticipated. And now she's like, "Here's some stuff for your special interest. Go fuck off and do whatever you want with them." Which is great. It's so great. But like, in that in-between time, it's really challenging, because, you know, she really left a lot of those interactions thinking like, "He's just not that into me. It's probably really the reality."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I just had a wave of sadness hearing you talk about, like, all the people who are still, like, unknown, autistic, unknown, like undiagnosed, unidentified, because this is so common. And like everything you've said, I'm like, "Yep, yep."

Like, I remember, so we live closer to my family, and whenever we'd go to family events, like even just being in the car anticipating it, I'd already start like, low-grade dissociating. And being like, "Why don't I like family events?" And then, "There must be something wrong. Like, either with the family dynamics or…" Like, over-interpreting it, because we don't have the right language. So, whether it's someone else being like, he just doesn't seem that into me. You know, why doesn't he want to come to come to my family event, or your response to gifts, or whether it's our interpretation of, like, why am I repulsed by touch, or why don't I want to go hang out with people I love?

And then the tendency, I think, especially if we have OCD, because there's like, relationship OCD, right? Then the tendency to be like, there must be something fundamentally wrong, either in my relationship or with me. I must be like, something deeply wrong with me, because we don't have the language, and it causes so much pain for us, but also for the people in our lives.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah. Well said. There's like a trifecta there, right? Of like, if you have relationship OCD, and you have an avoidant attachment style, and you are undiagnosed autistic with a lot of sensory struggle, wow, relationships are fucking hard.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, I kind of want to make that diagram now, because I think that would be me.

PATRICK CASALE: That's me too, to a T, you know?

MEGAN NEFF: Is that why we connect? Or do we connect despite that?

PATRICK CASALE: You know, I don't have the introspective capabilities to go that deep, but I do think, like for me, the combination of those things, right? They prevented a lot of, like, not just romantic relationships, but platonic relationships because of whatever the factors. And then, you go down the rabbit holes when you're not diagnosed yet, and you don't have the language, you start to, like, maybe deep dive attachment theory. And you're like, "It's just because I have an avoidant attachment style that I can't connect with anybody."

MEGAN NEFF: But it's actually so much more. So, I'm having-

PATRICK CASALE: So much more.

MEGAN NEFF: I'm having an aha moment. So, one of my relationship patterns that made a lot more sense post-diagnosis was this idea where people become special interests. So, I'd get really infatuated with people. And then, my dating history, I'd often date people for like, three months, and then, like, it would end.

And partly, I think, when the special interest energy wore off, and also, the new shininess of it wore off, then the avoidance stuff would become more front and center, the relationship. OCD, all of the self-doubt of, well, I don't feel the way I used to feel when this was a new, shiny special interest. The sensory stuff would start bugging me more, relationships would start feeling intrusive, not just because my avoidant attachment, because of sensory.

So, I think it's like I needed the energy of someone being a special interest for me to, like, push through the avoidant. And then, as soon as that special interest energy, the new kind of shifted, then that trifecta you just described would come in, and inevitably, the relationship would end. So, it's like a ping pong between intense special interest and then that trifecta, which is, yeah, pretty hard for relationships.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you know, that combo doesn't bode well for success or longevity in relationships, whether they be romantic or platonic, hard. And you start to almost like second guess your instincts, you know? You're like, do I not like being around them because they make me feel a certain way? Am I picking up on some sort of energy? They do this really little annoying thing that I'm now picking up on every single time they do it. And let me figure out a way to end this relationship really abruptly.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I did very well.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that's can also be, yeah, part of that, the masking and the OCD relationship stuff. There's a complicated crossover there, of like, I know when someone would cross their arms or would look away, I'd be like, "Oh, they're done with the conversation, so I'm going to leave before they leave."

But I actually think that that I would say, is masking, not OCD, because it's like, I've hyper vigilantly learned certain social cues, but I get it wrong sometimes. So, that, just the intersection, then also of masking an OCD can get really complicated.

Actually, I think I did have relationship OCD. I actually don't think I do anymore. But I think the reason I don't is because I now understand masking. I now understand what's happening. But I think when I didn't have a framework, I was like, I did have more of that relationship OCD where I was like, what does this mean? And all of that doubt.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

MEGAN NEFF: Would you say you still have it, or did that ease up after [CROSSTALK 00:39:00]?

PATRICK CASALE: That eased up for sure. I think that I've gotten a lot better at trusting my intuition and my gut and my energy in terms of relationships. And I used to really, you know, assume the best out of people, especially at face value, which led to a lot of me getting hurt in situations. But I think post-discovery and unmasking, more that relationships that I do have feel much more intentional and much more like authentic. And I'm really good at collecting those people in my life. And I'm also really good at, like, removing the rest. So, I would say that sometimes that feels like a blessing and a curse of being able to decide whether or not I want this person in my life or not, and knowing it very quickly. But yeah, I'd say it's eased up.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'd be interested to look at that. I bet that would be the case for a lot of us, because it just makes sense. I often talk about how OCD and anxiety will kind of infect organic neurodivergent woundings, and then, especially when we don't understand what's happening. And I would think just when you have no concept of what's happening, of why relationships are hard, or why there's misses that just leaves so much breeding ground for anxiety or OCD to just have a heyday.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, 100%, without a doubt. And I think you internalize a lot of it too, of like, must be me.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I did some of that. And I wish I could be like, "Oh, that's all I did." But I maybe I'm a little, I don't know what this says about me, but I was more prone to be like, maybe it's the relationship. And I should go be looking for, like, partly because of the idealization, I should be go looking for a relationship where this thing like isn't here, like looking for the idealized relationship. So, I did internalize some, but I also, it became about the relationship of this means this relationship is not meant to be. And that was partly why I had so many short relationships.

PATRICK CASALE: The next one will be [CROSSTALK 00:41:15].

MEGAN NEFF: The next one will be perfect and idealized. And also, that like kind of tainted. Once it's tainted, it's ruined. And so, then it's like…

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can relate. I definitely can relate to that. So, yeah, it's interesting, like looking at back at it through all these "drawers, lenses" for sure. I just kind of apply that lens to everything, now, I think is the difference between pre and post-discovery is this lens is here to stay. So, it's just like how I view the world completely at all times, which I'm sure a lot of people get really fucking annoyed by.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, and I wonder if it's interesting. I even think about this with the person you reached out to 15 years ago. I think sometimes we might be explaining something that feels powerful to us because it has context, but where, for other people, it could sound like we're trying to excuse our behavior if it's like, "Well, as in my autism…" For other people, it might sound like, "Oh, you're just making an excuse." Or, especially if it's like, well, because of my ADHD, this is why that was hard.

So, I could see how, even if that's not how we're meeting it, if we're not trying to do it that way, I could see how it could sound that way. So, I definitely get how the experience on the other side of getting all our context dumps might be a little different.

PATRICK CASALE: Some people really received it well, just want to name that. But yeah, I agree, 100%. And also, there's the other side of the coin. I don't know if we talked about this, but maybe briefly or vaguely, there's the other side of the coin, where people are like, do you ever not talk about how autism and ADHD impacts everything you do? Do you ever get that?

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I get like some versions of that, of like, kind of the idea of you're making this too much of your identity. So, I get some of that.

PATRICK CASALE: How do you respond to that?

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, it kind of depends. It kind of depends. Like, actually, one of my children has been very thoughtful around, like, they don't want this to be their only identity, and they kind of see me do that. And so, like, that's a very different conversation work, because we both share the identity. And where I actually find that conversation really interesting of like, that, that's their experience of, specifically, the autism identity. And I actually really respect the way that they articulate how they want to be thoughtful about, you know, making space for their multiplicity. I actually think that's kind of cool.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that.

MEGAN NEFF: I think if it's coming with a more negative bent, it's kind of like, yeah, you know, I think, because there's so many aha realizations and aha, like, right now, it feels like a really forward lens. 

I will say, so I'm what? Four and a half, I don't know. I stopped doing math. I'm four and a half years out. I will say, it's still a lens, but it's not like the lens in the same way it was the first two or three years, whereas, like, "Oh my gosh, everything makes sense." I would say I now have more multiple lens.

And also, I think, I also tended to be like, if I do something, and I asked other autistic people if they did something, and if they were yes, and I'm like, "It's an autistic thing." And now I'm like, "Oh, some of this stuff is actually a human thing. It's just that I'm asking…" Like, the confirmation bias of like, I'm asking other autistic people, and they're saying yes. So, I'm also doing less, like, I'm kind of holding the lens more gently, of like, this might be an autistic thing. It also might be a human thing.

And so, I would say the way I'm holding the lens is a little bit different. But I do think this is part of the identity development model is when we're first discovering it does become a really powerful lens, and it kind of needs to be, because we're doing so much work. And if people are reacting negatively to that, it's kind of like, well, this is actually part of a natural progression we would expect if someone integrating a new identity, and it will usually kind of lighten up or ease up as the person progresses through, but it kind of needs to be front and center in those first seasons, because you are reimagining so much of your past through this new lens.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Couldn't say it better myself. I'd say that's a good endpoint.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah. We didn't talk a lot about reimagining our history through ADHD. Would you like to do the next episode on that? Or do you feel like we just won't have enough content? Okay, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Let's do that.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, sounds good.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a perfect segue into that next conversation. So, thank you for naming that. And we are, you know, like we mentioned in whatever episode, I can't track the episode since we're batching and they're all over the place, that we do default a lot to the autistic side of things, but we do want to try to be more mindful of the fact that we are both AuDHDers, so we're going to do our best, and in true ADHD fashion, by the next time we record, we may forget. We don't know.

But I'm going to close this out, pretty huge. I really like what you text me, by the way, maybe we can integrate that at some point in time about the ads that you saw on other podcasts about a specific company, but the company shall not be named because it has set numerous cease and desist to numerous colleagues of mine.

We are supported by a different company called Jane app. And they are a healthcare EHR and medical record system for mental health and medical providers. You can use code DCPOD for two free months when you sign up. So, we want to thank them. And we will see you next Friday on all the platforms.